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Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

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madaz

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The earliest Gospel is written only 30 years after AD30, how is that "many generations"? Furthermore, since Jesus' apostle John lived well till AD89-AD120, can he not testify to the accuracy of the Gospels since they were finished by AD70? In fact, John is the information source for Gospel of John. Is it not clear that John's testimony is in fact first hand witness?

As I said there are NO first hand testimonies.

Now what if we were considering reports of flying submarines that shoot laser beams at enemy planes over the horizon during word war 1 and these stories were first recorded by people born in the 1990's, from tales told by their parents and grand parents.

Would you consider this a first hand witness testimony?
 
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WoundedDeep

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As I said there are NO first hand testimonies.

Now what if we were considering reports of flying submarines that shoot laser beams at enemy planes over the horizon during word war 1 and these stories were first recorded by people born in the 90's, from tales told by their parents and grand parents.

Would you consider this a first hand witness testimony?

Do you understand what is first hand witness?

Definition of "first-hand" from dictionary: "First hand information or experience is gained or learned directly"

John was Jesus' disciple and he witnessed everything about the life of Jesus, that makes him a first hand witness. His testimony of Jesus in Gospel of John is therefore first hand information.

Edit: Why is it so hard to comprehend? (Apologies but my previous statement was one of frustration so I took it out)
 
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WoundedDeep

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No, I don't. How about you stop telling me what I believe?

No, I didn't tell you what you believe, I implied it based on your response.

The question still remains. It seems to you then that the universe being inanimate matter can set laws of physics and gravity by itself but computer programs, similarly inanimate, cannot set commands by itself? How does that appeal to human logic or common sense?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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No, I didn't tell you what you believe, I implied it based on your response.

The question still remains. It seems to you then that the universe can set laws of physics and gravity by itself but computer programs cannot set commands by itself? How does that appeal to human logic or common sense?

Your earlier responses suggest that you think there is a dichotomy: either something is intended by a conscious agent or else it is random. This is a false dichotomy. Not all natural processes operate purely at random.
 
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WoundedDeep

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Your earlier responses suggest that you think there is a dichotomy: either something is intended by a conscious agent or else it is random. This is a false dichotomy. Not all natural processes operate purely at random.

There are indeed only two possibilities, either something was intended by a conscious agent, or it started on its own. What baffles me is, you know full well computer commands do not start on their own, yet you believe that laws of physics or gravity can start on their own. How does that make any sense for things that are totally inanimate?
 
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bhsmte

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Why would anyone value a lie more than their life if they are sane in their minds?
[/QUOTE]

Psychological need.

Some people have psychological needs to believe certain things, regardless of whether there is evidence to support the belief

Look around at all the different religions and those that have no question, their personal belief is the true one. Some people need to believe their specific belief so badly, they will go to great lengths to hold onto it and protect it.
 
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WoundedDeep

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Psychological need.

Some people have psychological needs to believe certain things, regardless of whether there is evidence to support the belief

Look around at all the different religions and those that have no question, their personal belief is the true one. Some people need to believe their specific belief so badly, they will go to great lengths to hold onto it and protect it.

The fact remains: people want to believe in the truth and die for truth, not lies. This has nothing to do with whether their belief reflects reality.
 
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madaz

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Do you understand what is first hand witness?

Definition of "first-hand" from dictionary: "First hand information or experience is gained or learned directly"

John was Jesus' disciple and he witnessed everything about the life of Jesus, that makes him a first hand witness. His testimony of Jesus in Gospel of John is therefore first hand information.

If you cannot understand that you need to re-learn your English.

Re-learn my English? Really?

Its about as first hand as teenagers today writing about the events of ww1 as told by their forefathers.

The majority of Biblical scholars agree that John was written last, by an unknown author.

And these scholars are believers.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There are indeed only two possibilities, either something was intended by a conscious agent, or it started on its own. What baffles me is, you know full well computer commands do not start on their own, yet you believe that laws of physics or gravity can start on their own. How does that make any sense for things that are totally inanimate?

What do you mean by "start on their own"? Here is an example of something that, depending on your meaning of it, "started on its own," without the need to invoke any supernatural beings:
images
 
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bhsmte

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Do you understand what is first hand witness?

Definition of "first-hand" from dictionary: "First hand information or experience is gained or learned directly"

John was Jesus' disciple and he witnessed everything about the life of Jesus, that makes him a first hand witness. His testimony of Jesus in Gospel of John is therefore first hand information.

Edit: Why is it so hard to comprehend? (Apologies but my previous statement was one of frustration so I took it out)

John did not author the gospel of John, you really need to investigate the book a little bit.

All four of the gospels are penned by "anonymous" authors and the names were not attached to them until well over 100 years after they were written. Also, John was likely written about 70 years after Jesus died and the average life expectancy during that time was about 30 years.

You really need to learn a little bit about the book you rely so much on.
 
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bhsmte

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The fact remains: people want to believe in the truth and die for truth, not lies. This has nothing to do with whether their belief reflects reality.

You really need to learn a little basic human psychology.

People have different avenues in which they seek "truth". Some people will roll over every rock and look for objective reasons to discover what is most likely the truth. Others, will find truth in what is most comforting to them and do everything they can, to convince themselves what they deem as comforting, is indeed the truth.
 
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madaz

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Then you probably need to know that even records of verbal testimonies at that time are very reliable because Jews are very diligent in ensuring that records of verbal testimonies are accurate. The Gospels are written records of what the disciples of Jesus themselves testified (esp. Gospel of Matthew and John) by people who are close to them or to their followers and that is why all four agree with one another and substantiate one another.

Reliable? No.

Verbal testimonies are very unreliable way of communicating, ever played chinese whispers?

If the original story changes little in a few minutes, imagine the changes over hours, days, weeks, months,years and decades.

WoundedDeep said:
I might have been unclear, but I know what I am talking about. The fact that the universe has a set of commands/laws that define how it works show that an intelligent Being is behind its creation. A computer program which functions on commands needs to be designed by a programmer, so does the universe which has its own set of commands.

Equivocating on the word "law as if it was prescribed instead of described? Im sorry to say mate, but to espouse such mumbo jumbo clearly demonstrates that you do not know what you are talking about.


On the contrary, Genesis is written by a single man called Moses (who is historically verifiable) and it is the first written record of events that happened since the time of Adam and includes surface information that God created the sun, moon and stars and Earth itself. Events in there, for instance the Flood, is historically verifiable and is confirmed in myths of other cultures.


Really? Biblical myths are confirmed by other myths, is that really your standard of verification?

Anyone who relies on himself for wisdom and rejects God's wisdom/reject His existence is a god to himself, therefore it is not restricted to theists.

Can an a-santa clausist be his own santa?

As a Christian I presume you reject the supreme Maori god IO. You say the hebrew god itself inspired you directly.
As a NZ Maori, what would you think if I say to you, that you are relying on yourself, you pray to a false god and claim guidance from it, therefore you are being your own god, because you reject IO.

Would you acknowledge and give me any consideration for pointing this out to you. Or would you simply dismiss it?

God taught me by inspiration of thought and subsequent confirmation of the understanding in other parts of the Bible. When I first wanted to understand the Bible I determined to myself to know absolutely nothing. There was no preconceived ideas or hypothesis on my part, I read it like a complete beginner. If I don't understand what a verse say, I pray about it and leave it alone to wait for God to show me. Then sometimes when I talk to non believers about my faith (like how I started believing and what happened in my life to make me believe) and then they ask me an additional question that I also prayed about, inspiration comes to me that answers exactly what I prayed about and I was reminded of other verses in the Bible that confirm the inspiration. (Verses I might not even have read or remembered) Then I shared that understanding with whoever asked me the question.

There are sometimes more than one confirmation of the inspiration I received and thus I'm convinced without a doubt it is from God. When I was finally allowed to go to church after years of isolation, I could see the understanding given to me resonated with what most churches today define as essential doctrines. In fact, I could understand deeper things written in the Bible that most churches don't teach actively today.

Gullibility and credulity are considered undesirable qualities in every department of human life,except religion. (Hitch)

You do understand that the theists who crashed their planes into buildings claimed that God inspired them also. They died in their beliefs.

And the authenticity of your claims are no different to other religious claims.
 
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Smidlee

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You act as if people always know when they are mistaken.

It's much hard to get people to eat a plate of rotten ,smelly, spoiled food . It's much easier to poison someone with a great tasting and looking plate of food.

John did not author the gospel of John, you really need to investigate the book a little bit.

All four of the gospels are penned by "anonymous" authors and the names were not attached to them until well over 100 years after they were written. Also, John was likely written about 70 years after Jesus died and the average life expectancy during that time was about 30 years.

You really need to learn a little bit about the book you rely so much on.

There is more reason to believe those closer to the event who claimed John wrote the gospel of John than someone 1900+ years later. Just look at the two complete different verses of the Scopes monkey trial we have which is less than a 100 years. Atheist wants to believe in the Hollywood version which was created years later instead of believing the historic facts that's much closer to the source.

The early church went to great pains to discovery the authors of the gospels and other NT books. Of course just like the Scopes trial there are those who don't like the historical facts and wouldn't accept them no matter the evidence. The book of Revelation mention is was written by John and now we have people doubting that John wrote I but a different person with the same name.
 
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WoundedDeep

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John did not author the gospel of John, you really need to investigate the book a little bit.

All four of the gospels are penned by "anonymous" authors and the names were not attached to them until well over 100 years after they were written. Also, John was likely written about 70 years after Jesus died and the average life expectancy during that time was about 30 years.

You really need to learn a little bit about the book you rely so much on.

John is not the direct author, but he is well alive even after the 4 Gospels are finished. He was specifically mentioned in the Book of Revelation, which was written when he was on the island of Patmos, a real place in history where Romans banished their criminals and worked them like slaves. Not only was he alive, but many others who were either closely associated with him or had been witnesses of Christ like he was. If the Gospels were problematic, they would know about it. Whoever penned the Gospels either heard directly from the disciples of Jesus, or copied from the existing written records of first hand testimonies. Modern translations are based on ancient texts penned by these authors, not new inventions based on people living centuries later like you falsely claim.

Neither you nor any modern historian have any concrete evidence to discredit the Gospels, and I find it strange you think it is possible to convince people who have life changing experiences with God and/or who had studied the Gospels more thoroughly than you did that what they read is false and unreliable. You should be studying the ancient texts yourself instead of relying on some man made tales of the fallacy of Gospel texts, and decide for yourself what is true.
 
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WoundedDeep

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Reliable? No.

Verbal testimonies are very unreliable way of communicating, ever played chinese whispers?

If the original story changes little in a few minutes, imagine the changes over hours, days, weeks, months,years and decades.

If the oral testimonies so diligently passed down in biblical times are not reliable, what makes your words or those modern historians' words 2000 years later more reliable? If people living in the time of Jesus could not disprove the oral testimonies that make up the Gospels, what do you think will convince me or anyone that modern controversies surrounding the Gospels will disprove the validity and truthfulness of the Gospels? Its really futile effort.

You obviously have no idea how strictly Jews view the recording of Scriptures, I suggest you study for yourself how Jews ensured that their ancient religious text (now called the Old Testament) are passed down reliably. I'm sure your doubts and unbelief was planted in your mind by men who are just as biased against the Christian faith as you are, if not more so. Have you seen the original texts yourself to say it has been changed over time? No, so don't expect to be convincing.

If you believe verbal testimonies and the passing down of such information is so unreliable, then much of recorded human history should be in dispute since they too started with the passing down of oral tracts. What makes oral tracts of human history more reliable than oral tracts of the Gospels?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Yes, because Islam borrowed many parts of its beliefs from the Old and New Testament, two branches of the same belief system which is true. Since I know that, why will I seek the truth from Islam when the source of truth is from the OT and NT?

The NT borrowed many parts of its beliefs from the OT. Since you know that, why do you seek the truth from Christianity, when the source of truth is from Judaism?

Hypocrisy and prejudice are two entirely different attitudes. I cannot see the logic behind you linking them together. And what has accepting one story and rejecting another got to do with hypocrisy?

Because you reject the Koran for being derivative, but accept the NT despite being derivative.

A prejudiced person is one who only regards whatever belief he already holds as true and ignores all evidences that speak otherwise.

You do not seem to have given much consideration to the evidences of the Koran or Helgi's saga or the Upanishads. And you seem to regard the belief you already hold as true. By your own definition, you are prejudiced.
 
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Smidlee

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The NT borrowed many parts of its beliefs from the OT. Since you know that, why do you seek the truth from Christianity, when the source of truth is from Judaism?
You do realize the New Testament is promised in the Old Testament right? The OT points toward the NT.
I heard missionaries say they wish they could use the Koran as a source of "Truth" to bring Muslims to a saving knowledge of Christ ,like they can with the Book of Mormon for example, but they can't because it's a big mess. It's written as if Muhammad had a spilt personality which he probably did.
 
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essentialsaltes

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You do realize the New Testament is promised in the Old Testament right? The OT points toward the NT

Only through contortions and distortions of the OT, devised by Christian apologists.
 
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Smidlee

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Only through contortions and distortions of the OT, devised by Christian apologists.

No, I referring to the Mosaic Law itself pointed to the NT. There were many such false "Christ" during that time besides Jesus. Why? Because of the timeline set down by Daniel.
 
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