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Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

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Standing_Ultraviolet

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That's because in old Judaism, speaking of God or the Heavens was considered blasphemy. This is why a lot of the biblical authors, like Isaiah, were persecuted.

They likely felt much trepidation even writing them in the first place.

It wouldn't have been considered blasphemy to a Roman or Greek author (who considered monotheism itself to be a form of blasphemy) to mention a person they didn't consider to be a deity. Not that I don't believe Jesus to have existed, because he's pretty much definitely an historical figure, but this is a poor response to questions of why so few people remarked on him during and shortly after his life.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I really don't stay awake at night worrying that scientists are continuing to fight over the matter. It's enough for me to know that all these peoples exist. I really don't need to know their origins.

Well, then why even comment on it?

Yes, they are guessing or else they would know and all would be agreed upon that knowledge. One doesn't argue over known and settled facts.

In my previous comment I put it as "guessing" because what you seem to consider "guessing" is really the entire scientific enterprise.
 
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talquin

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You said "I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection." If mentioning something three times is enough to provide proof of something, then I merely need to mention three times that you are a rhinoceros and that would be proof you are a rhinoceros.
I said the empty tomb of Jesus is the proof. I did NOT say my 3 repeated mentions is the proof. How incomprehensive are my words really that you can't even seem to grasp it even though I phrased it in the most logical manner?
An empty tomb is proof of an empty tomb. It is not proof of a resurrection.

Bring forward a verifiable account of the empty tomb that's written by an unbiased third party.
The Dead Sea Scrolls. It IS the most contemporary and verifiable account of not only account of the empty tomb, but also the entire Gospels.
Where are the Dead Sea Scrolls now?
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and when were they written?

You said "Christians are persecuted and killed for the truth they tell."

First, we don't know that what they're telling is the truth, as we don't have a god or a Jesus to examine to verify that. And if Christians are being killed, the incidents on 9/11 certainly aren't an instance of Christians not being killed.

How many times do you require someone to tell you that Christian persecution is a historical event which occurred since Christianity started? Or are you in plain denial of history itself?
If Christians are being persecuted now, it's certainly not prevalent in the USA. Just where are Christians being persecuted? And if they were persecuted, what does that do to prove any of your assertions about the resurrection, God, Jesus, etc.

A person who is indoctrinated with a belief as a young child by a person they trust (parents) is far more likely to latch onto that belief and hold that belief than if you were to try to do the same with a person who was, say in his/her 20s.
I was indoctrinated with atheism from birth but yet I am now a Christian. Your statement is proven false by my very life.
You weren't indoctrinated with atheism from birth. You were born an atheist.

Any belief system will do a better job maintaining its strength if potential believers are indoctrinated with the belief when they are very young and done so by someone they trust such as their parents. Just because some become Christians as adults doesn't make that statement any less true.

That's a fallacious argument called selective observation. Something good happens and you cherry pick something which you did or which happened earlier and credit the earlier event as the cause of the good thing.
So you are suggesting I should deny my personal experiences? Sorry, but that is not going to happen in the name of "fallacious argument". I know full well what I once believed and what I believe now. I know what I experienced and why I experienced certain things, no outsider can redefine them for me. Please do not attempt to discredit my experiences and force your beliefs on me.
Please share with me what you did experience that led you to believe that the Christian God is real.


OK, then there must be rules under which God operates. Who created the rules or guidelines (or whatever we need to call them) under which God operates?
Do you know God to say He must operate under some rules? I have only spoken of things seen in this universe which we all know operates under rules (and which are scientifically verified), but you speak of things you yourself do not know. So you are asking a question about God with a statement about God you cannot verify. It will be plain absurdity for me to try to answer a question based on unverified statements.
Are you saying God doesn't have guidelines under which he operates?

For example, God is often identified as being all-powerful and all-loving. Who created the guidelines under which God either should or shouldn't deviate from his being all-powerful and all-loving.
 
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WoundedDeep

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An empty tomb is proof of an empty tomb. It is not proof of a resurrection.

An empty tomb indicates the absence of the once deceased body of Jesus Christ. That can only happen if the body of Jesus was resurrected to life since there was no decay or anything else that is characteristic of a dead body buried.

Where are the Dead Sea Scrolls now?
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and when were they written?

Around 408 BC to 318 AD. The Gospel texts are obtained from those texts. Events revolving Christianity also happened during the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If Christians are being persecuted now, it's certainly not prevalent in the USA. Just where are Christians being persecuted? And if they were persecuted, what does that do to prove any of your assertions about the resurrection, God, Jesus, etc.

You certainly don't read the news do you? Communist countries, Middle East etc all have cases of persecution against Christians. America will not be far from that predicament. They were persecuted for simply believing in Jesus Christ, their enemies have an irrational hatred against them. I will not explain again why this is proof of the authenticity of Christian faith, I already did but you don't want to admit.

You weren't indoctrinated with atheism from birth. You were born an atheist.

Any belief system will do a better job maintaining its strength if potential believers are indoctrinated with the belief when they are very young and done so by someone they trust such as their parents. Just because some become Christians as adults doesn't make that statement any less true.

All the people closest to me were and are atheists, if I tell them God exists they will respond in the same way you guys do. The fact remains that the chance I can know Christianity is slim, therefore it is a miracle accomplished by God. The fact remains that I could be a Christian for so many years despite deliberate isolation imposed on me by my parents is yet more indication of the miraculous work of God.

Please share with me what you did experience that led you to believe that the Christian God is real.

I believe I already did, but I'll share one last time.

1) Years of depression and hatred left instantly upon hearing the name "Jesus Christ". I'm not exaggerating when I say "instantly".
2) My father changed from a bad tempered, verbally abusive and controlling man to a mild tempered and gentle man. He did not seek any psychological/counseling help but he changed nevertheless after years of prayer.
3) Over 10 years of domestic violence and verbal abuse propagated by my father stopped without seeking any outside help. The only thing I did was pray.
4) I was once literally in physical danger of being beaten by wild dogs chasing after me. I cried out saying "Lord Jesus, help me." The dogs stopped chasing me immediately. I was all alone late at night when this happened, not a single person could help me or hear my cry.
5) I literally saw with my own eyes a demon leaving my mother after I commanded it to leave in Jesus' name.
6) Both my mom and I had dreams on the same night about me being attacked by a demon. My mom didn't believe in God but she described that whoever was attacking me in her dream was evil. I had the same feeling in my dream that I was attacked by a demon.
7) My father had a dream that there was an evil presence above where he slept years ago (before he changed). He didn't believe in God either but he told me himself he saw the evil presence in his dream. Days after his dream, I was verbally abused by my parents for believing in Christ. There was absolutely no trigger for the abuse, my parents just lashed out at me (specifically attacking my Christian faith) without any warning. The evil presence my father dreamed about manifested in my parents and sparked the conflict.

Some of the major ones are listed above.

Are you saying God doesn't have guidelines under which he operates?

For example, God is often identified as being all-powerful and all-loving. Who created the guidelines under which God either should or shouldn't deviate from his being all-powerful and all-loving.

He does not operate by guidelines, He works in accordance with His nature. He does not deviate from His own nature (or personality).
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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Well, then why even comment on it?



In my previous comment I put it as "guessing" because what you seem to consider "guessing" is really the entire scientific enterprise.

There you go trying to say I meant something other than what I said. What I pointed out was that scientists are people too. There are scientists on opposite sides of almost every issue. They are no different than anyone else.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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I too am laughing out loud at your example, but I am not laughing with you. Where did you get that stuff?

Have you ever read a scientific book on biology?

Yes, I've read books on biology, have you? Have you done any research at all?

I'm sorry if I don't walk lock-step with your beliefs. You will find that throughout your life folks will disagree with you. It happens. Sorry. I pointed out that even the scientists you wish to elevate to "god" status, disagree on practically every issue. They do not all agree on what you have determined to be the facts of a subject.
 
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Davian

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Yes, I've read books on biology, have you? Have you done any research at all?
Enough to know when a straw-man argument is in use.
I'm sorry if I don't walk lock-step with your beliefs. You will find that throughout your life folks will disagree with you. It happens. Sorry.
I do not think you are sorry.
I pointed out that even the scientists you wish to elevate to "god" status, disagree on practically every issue.
Point out where I have done this, or retract your accusation.
They do not all agree on what you have determined to be the facts of a subject.
On the subject of "facts", could you provide scientific citations for theses bits from your previous post?

"All human life began 200,000 years ago in Africa and a woman scientists called Eve."

"Scientist #1: From Egypt
Scientist #2: From Mongolia
Scientist #3: From Asia
Scientist #4: From a Pacific Island."


"Scientists: Yes, all human life originated from Eve in Africa over 200,000 years ago."

"Science: All life began from a single cell."
 
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stevenfrancis

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Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

Hmmm. I disagree with your premise that God remains invisible, in the way in which you are using that term. While it is true that God, being all in all doesn't possess a specifically identifiable physical, smaller than earth sized form, (regarding God the Father, and God the Holy Ghost), God the Son is perfectly tangible and visible. During the incarnation as Jesus, the 2nd person of God, and now in the accidents of wine and bread, in the sacrament of Eucharist.

God the Father, and His Holy Ghost make themselves visible to us in myriad ways. You can simply look out your window at the sky, and see God the Father. You can see God, the Holy Ghost in the scriptures and traditions of His Church. You can hear the Holy Spirit in music. In homilies of your pastor. In the encyclicals of the Bishop of Rome. In the Apostolic writings of the Church Fathers, and local ordinary Bishoprics and Sees. The will of the Father, through the Son, and by the Power of the Holy Ghost, are made manifest in your own spirit/soul/animus. Your thought and properly formed conscience. Your id. Your very self.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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Enough to know when a straw-man argument is in use.

I do not think you are sorry.

Point out where I have done this, or retract your accusation.

On the subject of "facts", could you provide scientific citations for theses bits from your previous post?

"All human life began 200,000 years ago in Africa and a woman scientists called Eve."

"Scientist #1: From Egypt
Scientist #2: From Mongolia
Scientist #3: From Asia
Scientist #4: From a Pacific Island."


"Scientists: Yes, all human life originated from Eve in Africa over 200,000 years ago."

"Science: All life began from a single cell."

Of course not. I am not going to search out and post all of that when as I stated, anyone who has researched the issuer can readily find it on the internet.

No, I'm not sorry.

No, I will not retract anything I have said since everything I have posted is true. It simply doesn't fit what you believe.
 
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stevenfrancis

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Yes! Either that or communicate with mankind in a way that sticks out of the crowd of other religious claims! Those New Testament authors have no credibility with nonbelievers. What good is doing something that only confirms the belief of those who already believe?

Ken

God became man, and dwelt among us. He was captured, tortured and executed for His efforts. He then was resurrected. He presented Himself in resurrected form to thousands of eye witnesses. Including those who knew Him during His incarnation AND those who didn't. To people who believed in God, AND to those who didn't. The passing on of the stories by the eyewitnesses became of such importance that they began to be written down, so that this, the most important set of events in man's history, would continue to pass on until the return of Christ, and the end of the current heavens and earth. The information, and good news of Jesus was taken far and wide. In this day and age, it is difficult to imagine a group of people existing on the earth who have not received a missionary delegation at some time or another. Further, God the Son set up a Church. Ordained the first Bishops, (the Apostles), who continued to ordain Bishops and so on and so forth up to this very day. For those truly interested in God, and in their eternal souls, the information is not only readily available, but it has been hated by every major civilization since the fall of the Roman Empire. The adherents of Christianity continue to provide evangelisation, and witness to the faith. Jesus instituted sacraments, which were taught to His Apostles, and are still practiced today as the Church militant awaits with joyful hope, the Lord's return. The sacraments provide grace, and keep us in the universal body of Christ. Though the pace has slowed down, there are still hundreds of thousands of conversions each passing year of people from all walks of life, into the Church. And yes, others leave. Miracles still DO occur. Non-believers pay no attention to them, and if they did pay attention to them, they would pass them off as swamp gas, hypnotism, or mass hysteria. Tricks of the light. etc.

The plain fact of the matter is, there are probably some among us, who, using their God given free will, are using it to choose the tangible glamour of modern fleeting cultures, and will not choose to believe. They may attain mercy, if they have lived their lives in a manner befitting a child of God, by simply choosing well, even without believe, since your very conscience itself is one of the many voices of God. Others who claim strong faith and belief, but do nothing to live out their lives in an imitation of Christ, may find themselves with the non-believers at the end of time, or their own lives, whichever comes first. The fact is, not everyone is going to make it to eternal life with God. This is true today. It was true while God walked the earth in the person of Jesus Christ. It was true immediately following the resurrection. It was true when our Lady presented herself to Sister Bernadette, Juan Diego, and 3 Portuguese Children at Fatima, (even though the sun was made to dance in front of hundreds of eye witnesses, and it was only a few generations ago). If God were to make Himself a human man again, and present Himself at Television Studios in Hollywood, or The White House, or Parliament, and asked for air time to make a statement to the world, most wouldn't even listen to Him. Those who did would either assume Him to be insane, or a fool. He would be laughed at.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
God will continue to communicate with us, the way He always has. Through each other.

Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end.

People who are open, and are willing to engage either childlike faith alone, or intellectual reason accompanied with faith will see the face of God. Those who don't, likely won't. Is this unjust? No. The alternative would be a God who created us without choice or free will. A spiritually dead set of automatons or meat puppets. We would live perfect lives, eternally, without any strife. But automatons can't love. God is love. He love's and wishes to be loved. 2/3 of His created pure spirit beings (angels) chose to love Him. The other 1/3 chose not to. That 1/3 of the Angels have damned themselves, they were so adamant against their creator. And in the case of angels, this was with FULL knowledge of what and who God is. Angels don't need to see miracles. Perhaps the ratio in the end will be roughly equivalent in mankind. Perhaps not. Perhaps even less of mankind will choose God. Perhaps almost all of us will choose Him. But He loves us all eternally, and in the end, we will get what we want, eternally. Life with God forever, or life without God forever. "It is what it is", to quote modernity.

In the mean time, it is incumbent upon Christians to embrace our roll as missionaries. To be and show love to others. To do our best, (if we are intellectually inclined) to appeal to reason. If we don't have intellectual ability, then to simply demonstrate our faith in our lives. (We need to do this either way). Many will continue to laugh at us. Some will continue to persecute, imprison and kill us. But we will keep the message alive. Some who this very minute will ridicule this post, will find themselves loving and following Christ in the not too distant future, and will themselves be ridiculed. But then, they will get it. They will understand that once you are Christ's, you are always His.

I don't know if this answers anything for any one of skeptical nature. It probably doesn't. My posts, probably don't even belong on a philosophy thread. Not because there's no philosophical arguments for God. There are many. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote the most important exhaustive work of philosophy to date in man. I read Aquinas, as well as Augustine, Aristotle, Chesterton, Lewis, Benedict XVI, Kierkegard and others. I don't, however, have the gift of interpreting them well to others.

At any rate, I pray that you and any others skeptical are given glimpses by the Holy Spirit, or have that faith light turned on in some unexpected way as it did for me in my late 40's.

In the meantime, peace to you and yours, and God bless.
 
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Davian

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Of course not. I am not going to search out and post all of that when as I stated, anyone who has researched the issuer can readily find it on the internet.
I didn't think you could provide those citations. ^_^
No, I'm not sorry.
Why then did you say that you were sorry when in reality you were not?
No, I will not retract anything I have said since everything I have posted is true. It simply doesn't fit what you believe.
No, what you posted, such as "scientists you wish to elevate to "god" status" is not what in what I have said. You are putting words in my mouth. I find this to be intellectually dishonest.
 
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talquin

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You said "I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection." If mentioning something three times is enough to provide proof of something, then I merely need to mention three times that you are a rhinoceros and that would be proof you are a rhinoceros.
This is disingenuous. She mentioned the empty tomb repeatedly, and you refuse to respond to it.
She said mentioning it three times was proof. If true, then one could merely mention anything three times and it would be proof.

Bring forward a verifiable account of the empty tomb that's written by an unbiased third party.
The Gospels, being the Word of God, are, each of them, unbiased parties for all Christians. They are biographies, especially the synoptic ones.
Who were the synoptic gospels written by? How do you know they are true stories?

You said "Christians are persecuted and killed for the truth they tell."

First, we don't know that what they're telling is the truth, as we don't have a god or a Jesus to examine to verify that. And if Christians are being killed, the incidents on 9/11 certainly aren't an instance of Christians not being killed.
Are you, in all earnestness, doubting the veracity of the persecution and martyrdom of early Christians under the Romans? That is historical revisionism of the worst kind. I wonder what other atrocities of the past you deny.
Even if Christians were persecuted and martyred, that doesn't do anything to provide evidence that a god exists.

Christians who died on 9/11, did not die for their beliefs.
Agreed. But if there were no religions, 9/11 likely wouldn't have occurred.

A person who is indoctrinated with a belief as a young child by a person they trust (parents) is far more likely to latch onto that belief and hold that belief than if you were to try to do the same with a person who was, say in his/her 20s.
Your reasoning is complete bogus. By your logic, any new religion or denomination would stand no chance of gaining new members. Yet what we see in reality is a proliferation of Christian denominations, beginning with the Reformation (not to mention unchristian cults, such as JWs, Mormonism, Theosophy, Crowleyism, LaVeyism, dendrophilia, Wicca, Hare Krishna, Moon sect, Bhagwan, Scientology, Rael, Dawkinsism, etc. etc.).
My reasoning pertains to the sustenance of a religion. Not the initial development of a religion.

WoundedDeep, by her example, disproves your odd statement: she was raised in an atheist family, she wasn't allowed to attend Church or even read Christian literature (she had to do it secretly); her parents made it well-nigh impossible for her to become an heretic of the atheistic religion (such as materialism, scientism etc.). And yet, despite a youth filled with ungodly indoctrination, she found her way into Christianity!
I didn't say all people who become Christians do so as children. I don't know where you got the idea I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

That's a fallacious argument called selective observation. Something good happens and you cherry pick something which you did or which happened earlier and credit the earlier event as the cause of the good thing.
How is she cherry-picking; what information did she leave out? A fallacy mon œuil!
She focused on the hits and ignored the misses. That's the type of cherry picking she did.

OK, then there must be rules under which God operates. Who created the rules or guidelines (or whatever we need to call them) under which God operates?
Unless you know God better than I, there must be no such rules.
Who created the guidelines under which God operates?

Please provide your best example of a prophecy which was fulfilled. Provide the date and details or the prophecy and where it is documented. Also provide the date and details of the prophecy being fulfilled and where it is documented. Please do not refer to the same source for documentation of the prophecy and fulfillment of the prophecy.
This question has already been answered. The Books of the Bible are separate works, written by different authors at different epochs. The prophecies about Jesus Christ were made several centuries BC; most of the Old Testament was finished by 500 BC. The prophecies were fulfilled in AD time.
What, specifically, did the prophecies about Jesus say?
Where were they published prior to the time they were allegedly fulfilled?

How do you know the prophecies weren't made up after Jesus was born such that they matched what really happened?
Not only were they in the Hebrew Bible; they were also already in the LXX for more than 200 years. You should, like, do some reading on the history of the Holy Scriptures; something like 'Key to the Bible', which is accessible to lay readers. Avoid Bart Ehrman, though, he's a pseudo-scholar with an atheistic agenda.
So you don't know that the prophecies weren't made up after Jesus was born such that they matched what really happened. Since you don't know this, why do you pretend you do know it?
 
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talquin

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God has manifested himself multiple times throughout history. Burning Bush, Pilar of Fire, Jesus Christ. Further, all of Creation is evidence of God's existence.
1) What evidence do you have that these things actually occurred?
2) If these incidents did occur, what evidence do you have that a god caused them?

Atheists often argue that the Big Bang could have happened given an infinate amount of time for Goldie Locks conditions to be met. They fail to account for the fact that time didn't exist before the Big Bang as it is intertwined within the physical universe. How then could Goldie Locks conditions be met?
What evidence do you have that time began?

Further, not all Christians believe that "belief" in something is the way to salvation. Some think that God comes a reveals himself to individuals and guide them so that belief in something invisible is not necessary.
Why aren't the rules of Christianity clear? Why is there so much division among Christians? If God's message was so important, then why was it delivered with so much confusion?
 
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talquin

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An empty tomb is proof of an empty tomb. It is not proof of a resurrection.
An empty tomb indicates the absence of the once deceased body of Jesus Christ. That can only happen if the body of Jesus was resurrected to life since there was no decay or anything else that is characteristic of a dead body buried.
Incorrect. An empty tomb only indicates an empty tomb. Nothing more.

Where are the Dead Sea Scrolls now?
Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and when were they written?
Around 408 BC to 318 AD. The Gospel texts are obtained from those texts. Events revolving Christianity also happened during the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Where are the dead sea scrolls now?
What do the dead sea scrolls provide evidence for?

If Christians are being persecuted now, it's certainly not prevalent in the USA. Just where are Christians being persecuted? And if they were persecuted, what does that do to prove any of your assertions about the resurrection, God, Jesus, etc.
You certainly don't read the news do you? Communist countries, Middle East etc all have cases of persecution against Christians. America will not be far from that predicament. They were persecuted for simply believing in Jesus Christ, their enemies have an irrational hatred against them. I will not explain again why this is proof of the authenticity of Christian faith, I already did but you don't want to admit.
I'll admit God is real if sufficient evidence is brought forward.

I do read the news. In my earlier post, I didn't refer to Communist and Middle East countries. I merely mentioned the USA and said persecution of Christians is not prevalent in the USA

You weren't indoctrinated with atheism from birth. You were born an atheist.

Any belief system will do a better job maintaining its strength if potential believers are indoctrinated with the belief when they are very young and done so by someone they trust such as their parents. Just because some become Christians as adults doesn't make that statement any less true.

All the people closest to me were and are atheists, if I tell them God exists they will respond in the same way you guys do. The fact remains that the chance I can know Christianity is slim, therefore it is a miracle accomplished by God. The fact remains that I could be a Christian for so many years despite deliberate isolation imposed on me by my parents is yet more indication of the miraculous work of God.
How do you know it is a miracle accomplished by God?

Please share with me what you did experience that led you to believe that the Christian God is real.
I believe I already did, but I'll share one last time.

1) Years of depression and hatred left instantly upon hearing the name "Jesus Christ". I'm not exaggerating when I say "instantly".
That is not evidence that the Christian God is real. It's just a coincidence or selective observation.

2) My father changed from a bad tempered, verbally abusive and controlling man to a mild tempered and gentle man. He did not seek any psychological/counseling help but he changed nevertheless after years of prayer.
Prayer can have a calming effect. So this could be attributed to prayer or to your father's desire to improve himself. But it's certainly not evidence of a god.

3) Over 10 years of domestic violence and verbal abuse propagated by my father stopped without seeking any outside help. The only thing I did was pray.
That's not evidence of a god.

4) I was once literally in physical danger of being beaten by wild dogs chasing after me. I cried out saying "Lord Jesus, help me." The dogs stopped chasing me immediately. I was all alone late at night when this happened, not a single person could help me or hear my cry.
The dogs probably stopped because they heard you screaming something. If you cried out "Richard Dawkins, help me", the dogs would have been no less and no more likely to stop chasing you than if you had cried out "Lord Jesus, help me".

5) I literally saw with my own eyes a demon leaving my mother after I commanded it to leave in Jesus' name.
Did you take a photograph of it? If not, why?

6) Both my mom and I had dreams on the same night about me being attacked by a demon. My mom didn't believe in God but she described that whoever was attacking me in her dream was evil. I had the same feeling in my dream that I was attacked by a demon.
Two humans having similar dreams at the same time isn't evidence of a god. It's evidence of two humans having similar dreams at the same time.

7) My father had a dream that there was an evil presence above where he slept years ago (before he changed). He didn't believe in God either but he told me himself he saw the evil presence in his dream. Days after his dream, I was verbally abused by my parents for believing in Christ. There was absolutely no trigger for the abuse, my parents just lashed out at me (specifically attacking my Christian faith) without any warning. The evil presence my father dreamed about manifested in my parents and sparked the conflict.
A parent being abusive towards a child because of a dream isn't evidence of a god.

Are you saying God doesn't have guidelines under which he operates?

For example, God is often identified as being all-powerful and all-loving. Who created the guidelines under which God either should or shouldn't deviate from his being all-powerful and all-loving.
He does not operate by guidelines, He works in accordance with His nature. He does not deviate from His own nature (or personality).
Who decided what nature God would have?
 
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talquin

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Hmmm. I disagree with your premise that God remains invisible, in the way in which you are using that term. While it is true that God, being all in all doesn't possess a specifically identifiable physical, smaller than earth sized form, (regarding God the Father, and God the Holy Ghost), God the Son is perfectly tangible and visible. During the incarnation as Jesus, the 2nd person of God, and now in the accidents of wine and bread, in the sacrament of Eucharist.
If God is tangible and visible, then in this era where almost everyone in advanced countries has a camera and the internet is so widely available, why don't we see a photograph of this tangible, visible God on the internet?

God the Father, and His Holy Ghost make themselves visible to us in myriad ways. You can simply look out your window at the sky, and see God the Father.
If I look at the sky, I see sky. So you are using the term 'God' to describe the sky. Why call it 'God' when 'sky' is more widely understood and universally accepted?

You can see God, the Holy Ghost in the scriptures and traditions of His Church. You can hear the Holy Spirit in music. In homilies of your pastor. In the encyclicals of the Bishop of Rome. In the Apostolic writings of the Church Fathers, and local ordinary Bishoprics and Sees. The will of the Father, through the Son, and by the Power of the Holy Ghost, are made manifest in your own spirit/soul/animus. Your thought and properly formed conscience. Your id. Your very self.
That's not a good example of something making itself visible.
 
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Ken-1122

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God became man, and dwelt among us. He was captured, tortured and executed for His efforts. He then was resurrected. He presented Himself in resurrected form to thousands of eye witnesses. Including those who knew Him during His incarnation AND those who didn't. To people who believed in God, AND to those who didn't.

If that were true there would have been records of the event during that time, and there would have been records of the event outside the Bible. the Romans were known for keeping good records during that time; records that exist even today. Yet there is nothing about Jesus rising from the dead for all to see. I'm sorry but I don't think there is any truth to that claim.

Ken
 
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.Mikha'el.

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Sean Robson

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Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Maybe our world is not important to it as other worlds?

Maybe we cant see it but it can see us?

Kinda like us observing ants or termites from above, they can go about their business completely oblivious to us observing.

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

Perhaps it is because the concept of salvation is purely mans idea.
 
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madaz

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Incorrect. An empty tomb only indicates an empty tomb. Nothing more.

So simple, yet this seemingly so difficult (for Christians) to understand.

I bet they wouldn't believe an empty carspace is evidence of a monster that eats cars.
 
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stevenfrancis

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If God is tangible and visible, then in this era where almost everyone in advanced countries has a camera and the internet is so widely available, why don't we see a photograph of this tangible, visible God on the internet?


If I look at the sky, I see sky. So you are using the term 'God' to describe the sky. Why call it 'God' when 'sky' is more widely understood and universally accepted?


That's not a good example of something making itself visible.

Since we can't see each others faces during a forum dialog, I am at pains to decide how seriously to take your remarks. Do you honestly not understand my explanations and examples, or do you understand them just fine, and are pulling my leg, or being intentionally obtuse with your tongue in your cheek?

In any event, I have described my very real experience of God to you in the best terms I know how. I will await someone else to give you better examples which may be more in your wheelhouse.

Peace,

Steven
 
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