Why does God allow us to suffer?

Locutus said:

...an 80 year lifespan is effectively a zero timespan compared to eternity (in heaven). So for less than a picosecond we have free will, and an eternity of no free will...

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Good point (though you neglected to mention the alternative to heaven). Relatively speaking we have a picosecond to make a decision that we'll live with for eternity. For reasonably intelligent person that's a fairly simple cost/benefit analysis to perform. Unfortunately for most of us, ego/pride is the killer of logic. I envy those who are able to find Christ through their hearts. Getting there through the head is a tough journey when saddled with pride. But it can be done...

All that I can add is there is no such thing as CHANCE, LUCK, ACCIDENTS from the point of view of God. Those who are born into this world, where and to whom and with defects or not depended on what we did in heaven. There is justice in all things for God is just. And what we do here on the Earth will determine our station in heaven again God is just and loves us all.

Though we are born into a fallen world, unjust, and wicked God has each one of us in His Hands. He tailors our life experiences for our good. However, He will let us choose our life experiences and we cannot avoid its consequences.
When we chose wickedness their consequences keep getting worse until we repent or it takes us to the grave.

dan

DaveW-Ohev said:

I would add one more:
3. There is suffering for living in a fallen world.

Children are born with debilitating birth defects. People catch terrible diseases.

Those are not for sins, nor are there lessons to be learned. It just is.

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Murby said:

I read the book.. It wanted me to enslave others, have sex with young children, and reject or kill anyone who was different.
Thanks, I'll stick to the science..

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You do realize the point of the Bible is to study it further, right? And that the great resurrection will give every dead being a second chance, right? And if it taught you to enslave others... what the hell are you even talking about? Everything you've complained about it exactly what the Bible is against. The only reason you don't see it that way is because you didn't take the time to understand how it didn't promote that. I can't think of a single verse in the Bible that promotes it. If by "having sex with children," you're talking about the whole deal with Judah's daughter, then that wasn't God's doing, obviously. And killing those who are different? If you're referring to the Philistines, you're SO wrong. The Philistines are the ones who were persecuting the Israelites and blaspheming God intentionally. Oh, and about that science of yours, which I believe in, you should look up some great articles about how the Bible talks aout science. If you think I'm an idiot for saying that, you only have your opinion to back that up, which isn't saying much. If you can;t comprehend the Bible, that's your fault and no one else's.

As for the topic at hand, the answer is too easy. If you live life perfectly, you won't have any trials to teach you to be a man. Say everything's perfect, and you're used to it. But then just one thing goes wrong, and you're devastated. You don't know how to properly handle it, and you end up rejecting God for it. If God made your life perfect, than he wouldn't be teaching you how to be a man. God's not a puppet master who's job is to control our lives. He gives us space to learn things. Take it from a poor guy who's had a good share of stressful trials. I've gone through some serious trials last week, but I'm looking at them as a chance to grow. A parent is a teacher, not a caretaker that spoils us. And one way to spoil us is to make sure we never go through pain. But God's not always the cause of that pain. In fact, that's usually what the devil does: give us trials. Only when we truly disobey God is when God will give us a direct trial. Otherwise, he's usually letting us live our life. I mean, if you think about it, God has a small amount of rules: the ten commandments, the golden rule. It's not that hard to follow. Plus, it's a very good set of rules. It practically covers the major aspects of getting our personality straightened out.

The book of Job tells of God allowing the devil to take all that Job had, but Job never denounced God. That's adulthood. That's impressive. For those who think making a sexual joke or killing someone turns people into men, that's a complete misconception. Any five year old can make a sexual joke if he gets it. Trials are here for us to learn how to handle them well. If we don't know how to handle a stressful situation well, we're not adults. If we lead an absolutely perfect life with everything going our way, we're spoiled. And being spoiled does not turn people into adults.

Murby's mindset is all over the net, but one thing I've found, when one pins them down to explain their comments, there is usually no answer.

Silence can speak loudly.

Dan Bert said:

... God has each one of us in His Hands. He tailors our life experiences for our good. However, He will let us choose our life experiences...

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Aren't those two statements mutually exclusive?

One of the (many) things that I struggle with as a new Christian (and a logical person) is the doctrine professed by many that God has a plan for every individual. That concept is mutually exclusive with the concept of free will.

I think one of the biggest barriers to get over for someone with technical education/training is apparent contradictions in doctrinal Christianity. That is also the reason for multiple denominations etc. And personally I don't get where so much of that stuff comes from. The gospel of Jesus Christ is fairly straight forward. Perhaps too much so. We humans seem to have a tendency to over think/over complicate things. That combined with pride/ego and things start getting messy.

Locutus said:

1) What does 'righteous' mean? Is it the thing you tell yourself you are after doing the incantations?

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I have understood that righteousness is the right understanding and attitude that makes person do right actions. Reason why I think so is:

Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

One example of righteousness is also this:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

And it is crucial, because:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

But obviously, if you see Jesus words cheap, then this doesn’t mean much for you.

Righteous lives because he is faithful/loyal to God.

Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
Habakkuk 2:4

Locutus said:

2) Yeah, I see bible believing Christians 'not worrying' about their terrible pain, death, and suffering all the time. And I'll be sure to tell those African children that there's no need to worry about starvation - 1213, a well fed guy living in a comfortable house, has said so! Seriously do you people even spent 10 seconds thinking through some of this stuff?

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Actually it was Jesus who said:

Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing…
Luke 12:22-31

But I agree, it is easy for me to say. Yet, that is the truth and I recommend that everyone believes Jesus. Do you have some reason to not appreciate what Jesus said?

Locutus said:

If infantile platitudes are your default position (you appear to have held onto a child's version of Christianity), you're in for a rude awakening. Christians suffer as much, or more, than non-believers when the chips are down.

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Actually that doesn’t sound too bad, because:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3

But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me! Don't forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Mark 10:14

But it is true and actually Jesus said that we should expect suffering and many unpleasant things. I believe that is the reason why he also said that we should not be anxious. In my opinion disciples of Jesus should trust to God and know that in the end, everything will be ok and evil, lies and unrighteousness dies eventually.

Jed Man said:

You do realize the point of the Bible is to study it further, right? ...

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Therein "lies the rub" as the saying goes. The average person gets bogged down in details and can't see the big picture. That's life in general, not only as relates to the Bible. And for those who are desperately trying to keep their heads in the sand (and encouraging others to keep them company) it is full of tasty little snippets that can be selectively quoted to make it appear contradictory if not downright hateful. But even for open minded non-believers the Bible is a conundrum at best. I attempted to unravel its mysteries several times over more than 50 years of non-belief. Now even with the gift of the Spirit the Bible can still be mysterious and complex. But at times the words jump off the page. And the truth of how God's overall plan has been woven through history, the big picture, are clearly evident. As the complexity is gradually revealed it is truly awesome !

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

There is generally no specific plan for everyone, not that I've seen anyway.

Take Moses for instance, yes, God had a particular plane for him but, Moses had choice as to whether or not he wanted to do what god wanted him to do. Also God was very specific to Moses on what he wanted of him, he didn't have to guess or wonder if this was what God wanted, none of that. If God spoke to me, and was detailed and clear on what he wanted me to do, I'd do it. Otherwise, as with the vast majority of people, I try to follow his general plan for Christians as a whole, love him, keep his commandments best I can (will), ask for forgiveness if I don't, feed the poor (do unto "the least of these my brethren") whatever.

Then just try to do what I can to help the cause.

I think a lot of people get the detailed "plan for their particular life" thing from preachers that like to preach pretty/popular sermons based on little or no fact. You want to know what Gods plan is for you or any other concept that you may question? First step back and google verses for that and read them to see if there is really even a biblical basis for that or anything. Then on the "plan" in particular..was God specific, did he say in one way or another that you understood what he wanted beyond a shadow? Or are we running around like a chicken with our head cut off thinking God wants me to do this, no, he wants me to do that to the point it all just becomes a mass of frustrating confusion, while all the time meaning well, but getting nowhere?

God is quite capable of letting us know what he might want from us and since he is not the God of confusion, he will make it clear. If that doesn't happen, I'd dare say there is nothing specific and he's leaving it up to us. And rightfully so, why not let us decide to do what we are best capable of...seems fair and logical to me anyway.

drr1531 said:

Aren't those two statements mutually exclusive?

One of the (many) things that I struggle with as a new Christian (and a logical person) is the doctrine professed by many that God has a plan for every individual. That concept is mutually exclusive with the concept of free will.

I think one of the biggest barriers to get over for someone with technical education/training is apparent contradictions in doctrinal Christianity. That is also the reason for multiple denominations etc. And personally I don't get where so much of that stuff comes from. The gospel of Jesus Christ is fairly straight forward. Perhaps too much so. We humans seem to have a tendency to over think/over complicate things. That combined with pride/ego and things start getting messy.

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Locutus said:

You think falsehood is the way to promote your god?

We cannot CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve. You know this to be a falsehood, because you yourself cannot choose to disbelieve. So why go there? Why discredit yourself and your god?

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Locutus, do you believe God exists?

And since your reply to Jan who didn't even mention belief or disbelief seems a little misplaced, can you please tell me how it relates? Now if you just wanted to make the comment and chose to bounce it off Jans post, whatever, but then I'd be curious on the lack of choice you mentioned?

Locutus said:

Come out with what?

When people who believe in something unproven and entirely subjective, have access to our institutions and governments and attempt to visit those superstitions upon the broader community, that's a problem. Just as it would be for you if it were done TO you, for example, by Muslims. If, however, you think it's reasonable and fair to allow anyone with a supernatural belief to impact your community (schools etc), then you're more reasonable than I've given you credit for.

Meantime, I've lived much of half a century being reminded by Christians that I'm evil and inferior. I've been compelled to sit in silence with they carry out their rituals. I've had to keep silent when sneaky Christians tried to terrify my kids into believing. I've been called the devil by sweet little old ladies. I've seen friends lose family members to the cult. I've seen people turn on their loved ones because the loved one didn't believe, or didn't believe the right way. All, I might add, done by people who wouldn't tolerate the same from someone else - ever. I've had people come to my door to tell me that if I don't join their cult immediately I will be tortured. I've had people in the street tell me the same thing. I've had pastors ask me to leave their church because I asked polite questions about their god. I've had ministers hang up on me for the same reason. I've had men of god go red in the face in anger and yell at me for daring to question god. I could go on. There's ALOT of stuff, after a lifetime of living amongst such people. And that's in a country which has a low percentage of believers and no professional requirement (for jobs and/or politics etc) for belief. I can only imagine how bad it is in America.

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"Come out with what?"

You evidently knew the answer to that.

What can I say, people are passionate about God. Have you ever read these discussion boards and seen some of the abuse Christians have to put up with.

Have you ever considered just staying away from these people? I mean if I went in among a bunch of atheists, got them on the phone or whatever and things didn't go well, Id either stand my ground on principle and deal with the repercussions or just stop putting myself in that position. as far as someone coming to your door, don't open it or close it in their face when you've had enough.

You sound like the kind of man who stands up for his principles regardless of what others think, and that's fine but do you really expect that to always go well for you?...it doesn't for me.

I should add that I get it, things can get disheartening when you don't agree with others ways, and those ways seem to be the general norm, it's lonely there. I'm the last person to give into any type system, but Christianity...I just thought it was a pretty good deal, and at least to me, it makes perfect sense, and seems to be what this whole "I'm here, now what?" thing is about.

I know how it is to buck the system but not this system so, maybe I can't fully understand but, I have seen others in your shoes with the same complaint. I kind of get it, but guess I can't claim to have any answers other than what I've already said, and if I did, they proably wouldn't be good answers.

TomorrowsWorld said:

This is one of the hardest questions I have to answer with people, they always have a hard time understanding HOW a loving God could command all those people in the old testament to be killed. They look at the world and they see a world in pain!

WHY does God allow suffering!?

Does God truly care for and have a plan for all who have ever lived and died? These are common questions. Discover the Bible’s clear answers on this important topic.

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/telecasts/why-does-god-allow-suffering#sthash.eDVOkq1H.dpuf

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I have given this very question a lot of thought in my life. As a child I suffered poor health due to birth defects and watched my best friend die from unexpected illness after fighting similar issues for 7 long years, just when we were starting to think the worst was finally over for him. It broke my heart to lose him, to watch him fade away... At the time I couldn't understand how God could put an innocent little boy through that.

What I eventually realized is that we are dealt the hands we are dealt in life because God continues to mold us throughout our lives, beginning with the circumstances we are born into, followed by our life experiences. My friend was one of the most emotionally resilient people I've ever met, that was just in his nature, but would I have ever noticed if it hadn't been put to the test so darn much? Maybe not... As for me... I've wrestled with the age old question of whether it is better to have loved and lost or to have never loved at all... I have decided that every ounce of joy, every sunny smile, every carefree game, every unknowingly taught life lesson was totally and completely worth it. I am stronger and wiser, more aware of the shortness and fragility of our mortal lives than I ever would be at my age otherwise. The fact is that God allows suffering because that is how we learn and grow as human beings.

Locutus said:

Humour me please. Answer the question once more

Can you choose to disbelieve (genuinely disbelieve) for 24hrs? I'm not asking if you WANT to, I'm asking if you CAN?

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You know, I try to answer everything thrown at me and I have done so here more than once. If I answer again, you'll just ask again, and you know well what doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a different result implies, so this is where I'll have to decline this and any more requests.

You aren't going to like this, but I think it may be good for you. Do you goad Christians, or anyone for that matter like this often? Take advantage of their patience? Try to push them to anger? Do you like confrontation? Do you ask for a lot of what you were complaining about earlier?

Hard to escape the fact the possibility does exist.

Locutus said:

And perhaps he's just not a very nice god. Or perhaps he doesn't exist.

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If you're looking at a "not very nice god" then by definition you are looking in the wrong direction.
When a person who lives in the shadows looks into the darkness and tries to blame the light for the darkness one has to question their sanity I'm afraid.
Whatever the reason for the darkness in this world it certainly can't be the source of the light that can be blamed.

Dan Bert said:

However, He will let us choose our life experiences and we cannot avoid its consequences.
When we chose wickedness their consequences keep getting worse until we repent or it takes us to the grave.

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So - those babies being born with microcephaly from the zika virus have chosen wickedness?

Locutus said:

You think falsehood is the way to promote your god?

We cannot CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve. You know this to be a falsehood, because you yourself cannot choose to disbelieve. So why go there? Why discredit yourself and your god?

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Truth: I have chosen to believe in God. My choice. No one else's. No one forced me to believe in God. No one prevented me from believing in God.

Why haven't you chosen to believe in God?

To me it is obvious that there is a Creator.

TomorrowsWorld said:

This is one of the hardest questions I have to answer with people, they always have a hard time understanding HOW a loving God could command all those people in the old testament to be killed. They look at the world and they see a world in pain!

WHY does God allow suffering!?

Does God truly care for and have a plan for all who have ever lived and died? These are common questions. Discover the Bible’s clear answers on this important topic.

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/telecasts/why-does-god-allow-suffering#sthash.eDVOkq1H.dpuf

Click to expand...

Because suffering cannot be eliminated without destroying free will.