Why does everyone hate Mary so much?

sdowney717 said:

I can understand your translation, various translations render this as His family, His own people, friends.

Translated as family is consistent with the contextual flow as it shows at the end of the chapter Jesus telling us who His family truly is.

ESV
Mark 3:21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

Nearby would be His kinfolk then, not those standing nearby.
Greek Lexicon :: G3844 (KJV)

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Read back over the passage - look at the Greek (oi par antou)- and see the procession in time of events.

The Greek in verse 21 is "the ones of His" ... so in the preceding passages, who is Christ with ? He is with those He has called, and they are joined by a multitude so numerous they cannot eat their bread.

Mark describes the brothers and His mother as arriving later.

The preceding context (up to verse 21) does not mention family, is followed by a confrontation with the scribes, and much later the brothers and His mother arrive (according to Mark).

Metal Minister said:

I've seen a good deal of them in this thread...

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I get the sense the OP is saying unless you embrace the Mariology doctrines, you hate Mary because those doctrines are all Godly revealed truths.

Imagine living in an earlier time and going against the Catholics, would get you tortured and burnt as a heretic and your name cursed.

sdowney717 said:

I get the sense the OP is saying unless you embrace the Mariology doctrines, you hate Mary because those doctrines are all Godly revealed truths.

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Hard to say, because the OP was not very specific. It did little more than stipulate that everyone hates Mary.

But then there are the others who've joined in and who feel that if you don't use the most lavish language for Mary, i.e. the terminology used in their denominations (Mediatrix of all Graces, Queen of Heaven, etc.) you are de facto insulting her.

stray bullet said:

Strawman. Do you even try to have a discussion?

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I don't know, do you even know what the Gnostic gospels say about Mary?
http://gnosis.org/library/infgos1.htm

Thekla said:

Read back over the passage - look at the Greek (oi par antou)- and see the procession in time of events.

The Greek in verse 21 is "the ones of His" ... so in the preceding passages, who is Christ with ? He is with those He has called, and they are joined by a multitude so numerous they cannot eat their bread.

Mark describes the brothers and His mother as arriving later.

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Why would those He has called though come to stand with Him if they thought He was crazy?
There is no tight timeline between calling the 12, and this mention of the multitude pressing in.

13 And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him.

14 Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach,
15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:
16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; 17 James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, “Sons of Thunder”; 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.

A House Divided Cannot Stand
20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”



See what I mean? You are saying the 12 apostles He called were then saying He was out of His mind crazy.

sdowney717 said:

Why would those He has called though come to stand with Him if they thought He was crazy?
There is no tight timeline between calling the 12, and this mention of the multitude pressing in.

13 And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him.

14 Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach,
15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:
16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; 17 James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, “Sons of Thunder”; 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.

A House Divided Cannot Stand
20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”



See what I mean? You are saying the 12 apostles He called were then saying He was out of His mind crazy.

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Mark doesn't state who precisely said He was agitated. What Mark clearly describes is the temporal opening of events. And Mark does not state that the brothers and His mother were there, but arrived later.

Again, nowhere in the text does it identify the brothers and His mother being there; Mark says they arrive later (verse 31).

I will stay with the Holy Scriptures on this, in spite of what you say. And I do think your translation (randomly) inserting a heading at the place where it does may have informed your view.

Thekla said:

I will stay with the Holy Scriptures on this

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Me, too. Which says NOTHING, absolutely nothing whatsoever, about whether Mary did or did not have relations with Joseph after Jesus was born, which says NOTHING, absolutely nothing whatsoever, about whether Mary did or did not have other children after Jesus was born. Staying with Scripture means remaining SILENT on these issues (at least doctrinally). Which means NOT embracing as such the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (and also the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Assumption of Mary) but rather, instead of that, staying with Scripture.

Yup. (Oh, and good to see you so powerfully not only use but also endorse the practice of Sola Scriptura).



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah



[EDIT: Note to Staff..... This post was made when the thread was in GT, BEFORE staff moved it to Mariology]





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Albion said:

Hard to say, because the OP was not very specific. It did little more than stipulate that everyone hates Mary.

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.... without documenting that such is true.





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CaliforniaJosiah said:

.... without documenting that such is true.





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It looks like the OP is contrasting two religions, rather than Christians "hating Mary".

OP---" To demonstrate this common hatred, I posted some Talmud teachings of Mary:

Sanhedrin 106a Says Jesus' mother was a ****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

Shabbath 104b States Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had *** with many men. "

Thekla said:

she's a Saint in the EO, and likely the RC as well

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We Lutherans commemorate her as well.

yogosans14 said:

I would be careful claiming Mary turned her back on God. That's just outright wrong.

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I went tonight to debate and this lady said 'well i dont know exactly where i fit or where i belong as a Christian theres so many demoninations. So I said "your just a daughter of Mary then" (i say this referring the baptisim/bloodline conevenant and inheritence logisitcs). But man as soon as i say that POW!! The voice got raised "no she is NOT my mother!" I said ok. Then let the record state it. Take a look at the story of Esau? and denying the inheritance for soup. All you have to do is simply deny it infront of the angels as a whitness. Theres NO WAY I would do the same Lol. I think Mary was ascended, and is very active with many miracles around earth until today. Many nations need mary to help spread the Gospel.

Mary appeared in Mexico and was repsonible for converting the whole country. One thing Juan Diego said is that she was YOUNG girl. The person giving the presentation said it wasnt politically correct to say it. I'm GUESSING it was 'lolita' which would have put her at 11 or 12. Basically the conception had to be during her first cycle. Furthermore, the conception would have been at late 11 yrs old.

Accurate Depiction of Mary's age:



Why is this important? It has to do with sin, not shedding first blood, being unclean, and other logistical female-related dogmas and supertitions that were taken extremely seriously. Especially when everyone was waiting for messiah to arrive. Regardless of what 'todays Judaism' thinks, everyone back then was waiting for Messiah. Even Magi knew about this. People were trying to bring him into existance. This fits with the second temple building, John The Baptist, the Hillel School of Pharisees and so forth. We dont know about the 'off the record' things that happened with divine messages to bring Hillel back to Judea etc. its a mystery.

God fearers in the mediteranian and middle east made pilgram in HUGE numbers each year to the temple to make an offering to the God of the 'hebrews' that had 'no name'. The numbers easily out did locals. People Synagogues were like libraries where gentiles mot only were allowed, but often ran them. If you wanted to read and discuss intellectually thats where you went.

Bible means Biblios means library. The Vatican was actually just a Library. The Pagans had their own works. It was all phillisophical in nature, but had divine backing (never Athesitic like today). Ideas and doctrines were definitely borrowed or built off one another. Why do you think there was a gov't backed effort to standardize the LXX? Does that sound like this was done for a small insular community of 6000 people? No. What was happening was the preperations through the acts of men along with Gods helping hand, were setting it up so God could be known throught the world.

By the time Jesus cam God of the Hebrews was already very well known. When the Messiah doctrine was taught, all the pieces fit together and it was taken as truth instantly because anyone agreed it matched scripture prophecies. Thus, Paganism dissapeared very quickly. However, there was still some struggling parts on earth living 2000 years in the past. Hence, God need to give an extra push. When Martin Luther was happening, God planned to fill Amrica with his followers. However, he wanted a southern shield to south America. How does God convert almost a whole continent from paganism to Christ almost over night? See below..

Here is a video that can change your whole perpective on life:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ds7nD_QNeKA

Cackles said:

I went tonight to debate and this lady said 'well i dont know exactly where i fit or where i belong as a Christian theres so many demoninations. So I said "your just a daughter of Mary then" (i say this referring the baptisim/bloodline conevenant and inheritence logisitcs). But man as soon as i say that POW!! The voice got raised "no she is NOT my mother!" I said ok.

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And she is NOT our mother. She is Christ's mother.

To demand that she be acclaimed as ever-virgin, mother of all mankind, immaculately conceived, assumed bodily into heave, dispenser of all graces, Queen of Heaven, and all the rest is just "gilding the lily" in the belief that the more incredible the fabrication, the more reverent the devotee is. It's unscriptural and, more than that, unnecessary. Being honored as the mother of God is not exactly zip in the respect department, you know.

I don't hate Mary.

I don't agree with worshipping her. But I certainly don't hate her.

yesyoushould said:

I don't hate Mary.

I don't agree with worshipping her. But I certainly don't hate her.

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Hyperdulia.

Rick Otto said:

Hyperdulia.

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The only problem though is that dulia, and latria,(or at least the words that we get them from) are used interchangeably in Scripture. I realize that the RCC makes a distinction, but it's a distinction without a difference....

Albion said:

And she is NOT our mother. She is Christ's mother.

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I guess in scripture, when Jesus calls us brethren, you get upset too?

I am reminded of the scripture where it is spoken, "ye are my family that do the will of my Father."

I honestly think we all love Mary our beloved.

I know of no Christian who has contempt for Christ's mother. The issue between churches is whether or not to worship her.