Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive?

alexiscurious said:

I don't see how this has anything to do with Abraham.

Every human has been born into this world separated from God. Whether you want to agree with this or not, it doesn't make it any less true.

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Ok, well can you tell me why you believe this has at some time not been the case?

alexiscurious said:

This has always been the case.

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Then, I don't understand why you think you have lost something due to Adam and Eve's action. Can you please explain that for me?

oi_antz said:

Then, I don't understand why you think you have lost something due to Adam and Eve's action. Can you please explain that for me?

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Do baby birds inherit wings from their parents? Do all of us function, to some degree, according to our DNA? Why would we think that our first parents did not mold or form the pattern for later generations?

alexiscurious said:

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

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I don't believe for a second that Christianity is or has to be 'dismissive' . In fact, all of our modern science Founders were Christians because the evidence for God did not dispute what Science was discovering. Taking your 3 examples, here are the correct responses to each :

1. You can be assured of Gods existence because Science has discovered things which only an intelligent , personal, willful First Source could provide and which materialism and naturalism void of any intelligence, could not. The only faith you need, is to connect a couple of dots to an infinite, eternal , Being whom you haven't met YET , but will when you enter eternity. The faith required for an atheistic worldview/origins is so incredulous that it defies logic, reason, common sense , and good Science. ie : How do you get non material entities of Human Mind, Will, Emotions, Abstract thoughts, logic, reason, love, etc... from undirected material atoms ? For further reading : http://www.christianforums.com/t7813978/

2. The type of personal relationship you describes IS possible with God because he promised to actually come to live and abide IN our Souls if we genuinely receive his Sons sacrificial death to cancel our sins thereby making us reconciled to himself. The fact that we are personal and have a spiritual nature to us, means that the foundation for a personal relationship with God can be had -- it just needs activating and that begins to exist upon trusting Christs finished merits on the cross was sufficient for ones personal sins commited against God and Others. Once this is done, studying The Bible for instructions on how to live in conjunction with Gods very Spirit living in you work to guide you thru life, makes you more in tune to the things of God, allows you more awareness of God nudging yuou to do or say things at an appropriate time , allows you to catch Gods vision for certain issues, and allows a 2 way communication from your Spirit to his Spirit similar to talking with someone face to face but not quite ...albeit still very real. We are all made for relationship to our Creator , for, he didn't just kickstart the Universe into being then not be a part of his most finest of all creations and purposes : US as God-like Representatives of himself. Just as a Military Commander stays in touch with his Troops, so does our personal Creator .

3. All of humanity is alienated from God because of sin nature and our willfulness to suppress our conscience so we can do what we want whether moral or immoral. It is a state of making SELF ones own authority and essentially making Oneself his own 'god' by rejecting the Creator himself. Man was made NOT be an authority unto himself, but to walk in perfect unison and harmony with God being number one . Man messes up things royally when he is left to his own urges, desires, motives, and choosings. We need the direction, loving moral mandates, and guidance that God offers and wants to give us. To put ourselves as our own little 'god' is the greatest crime we could ever commit because it pushes God and his love further away. If this continues , then eternity is simply Humans getting what they always desired : GreatER distance from God except without end. A perfect justice. Yet he gives us a way out of that now, today, if we are willing thru CHrist crucified on our behalf .

3.a. If you want to be reconciled to God and know that it is completely safe for you to die , then you can be . Hes provided THE only way possible and the rest is our choice. God calls us all accountable for our own sins and we can either pay the price or we can allow Christ to have paid the price on our behalf ; either way....God allows us that freewill choice but just as our Parents hope we will return love back to them....so does our Creator . The one sure way to return his love back to himself is to receive the free undeserved gift that he gave us all by sending Christ his Son to be our substitutionary atonement so we can be linked to God permanently.


One way or the other....all of humanity must decide what each is going to do with Jesus (Gods only way of reaching himself) . Have you made that decision yet one way or the other ?

Albion said:

Do baby birds inherit wings from their parents? Do all of us function, to some degree, according to our DNA? Why would we think that our first parents did not mold or form the pattern for later generations?

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I do not see an indication that Adam and Eve's genes changed as a result of their sin. I see that their knowledge changed, and this has caused an irreversible change to the nature of attitudes and beliefs that the human has brought to the world. I do accept that this has impacted every subsequent human that they have had contact with, or that has had contact with the beliefs and attitudes it produced. That is basically what the story tells us, that the human chose to pursue the knowledge of good and evil even though they were gravely warned not to.

alexiscurious said:

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

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Hebrews 11.6: "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

alexiscurious said:

I might not have lost much but I know for sure that I have to share in their punishment which is separation from God. I've never seen anything so unfair.

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First, I want to thank you for answering the questions I have asked you, I have been waiting for a long time for the opportuity to ask them of you, because I believed they would lead to the answer you need. However now that you have answered the questions, I can see that it has not really produced the result that I expected it to. So I will need to just see where we get led to from here, but since other people have found an understanding that satisfies them, I am confident that you will be able to do the same, if you make decisions sufficiently to arrive at that destination.

As far as my interaction with you all I can offer is a response to your questions based on an understanding that I have obtained, which I think is going to help you to obtain the understanding that you are pusuing with these questions. So the first thing I can see here is that you have a belief that I do not have, and which I do not understand why you believe is a valid belief. Before I can effectively offer criticism or praise of your belief, I need to understand it. This is a bit different than what I have done in the past, which is to have immediately criticised your belief because I did not understand it, and instead try to direct you to the understanding which I have, because I assumed it would give you the understanding you seek. However, being aware of that now, I do need to accept this is not necessarily what you are seeking.

Thus, in assessing your comment right here, I can see that you feel you are suffering for having been separated from God. I also see that you believe this might have been different if someone else had not let you down. If this is correct, which I am pretty sure it is, then I don't know whether there is anything further that I can offer you, because I do know in fact that you have been told enough times already, that God does desire for you to not be separated from Him, and that He is only waiting for you to turn to Him so He can heal you. That is, to wipe the tears from your eyes and to shower you with love. Now, there is nothing stopping this from happening that is not within your control. You really cannot blame Adam, Eve, me or them for your feeling of being separated from God. You can't even blame Him, because He is standing at your door and knocking.

I think at this point, I am just going to say a prayer for you, and keep watching your activites here in case I can see another opportunity where my understanding might be useful for you, but I really don't think I can help you more on this matter at this time. I do hope you will find your way to reconciliation with Him, it certainly will be the relief you never have imagined.

Meanwhile, enjoy the day He has given you, and make the best of it that you can

alexiscurious said:

Birth pains? Death? Ability to get sick? All of these require some kind of change in the body?

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Well the body is always changing. How much of this can be attributed to psychological or spiritual phenomenon though? I suggest it is possible and valid to believe, if it satisfies one to do so.

Does the description of child birth mean there was no pain induced before, or that the woman did not perceive it to be pain? (A painful child birth describes suffering for another's sake, could possibly be used to describe a new feeling of resentment where it once might have been given in love).

Death, well I am of the opinion that the body being essentially mechanical can be sustained, repaired and if necessary, replaced by technology, and if the human was interested in that result, could produce it with technology. However, the story you refer to does not suggest it was originally offered that way, but that it was done through having consumed a fruit, an elixir of life. Exactly how this happens, nobody can tell us today, but I do tend to imagine it most likely had a lot to do with faith and being sufficiently aware and conscious of one's self, that the body would not be capable of failure. Essentially, death is due to the body's failure to sustain life.

Ability to get sick is interesting, did you gain that from the story of Adam and Eve?

oi_antz said:

I do not see an indication that Adam and Eve's genes changed as a result of their sin. I see that their knowledge changed, and this has caused an irreversible change to the nature of attitudes and beliefs that the human has brought to the world.

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Agreed, but it was just an analogy meant to show that actions have consequences and that some of them are passed on to later generations--which, I think, most people understand, and it's not strictly genetic.

I was trying to suggest what might otherwise be called "as the twig is bent, so the tree will grow" kind of development .

When we consider the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, it's not simply that they were outcast in God's eyes because of their sin. In addition to that, ihey had to give birth in sin, and pain, fend for themselves for survival, endure a physical death, etc. The idea that we have no connection to them and we are "on our own" as completely free agents just doesn't square with Genesis, even if we may want to think of ourselves that way. We are members of a certain species and its boundaries are as prescribed as a result of the fall in Eden. Or, to put it another way, Original Sin is not beyond considering possible.

Albion said:

The idea that we have no connection to them and we are "on our own" as completely free agents just doesn't square with Genesis,
[...]
Original Sin is not beyond considering possible.

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I don't see how it would be possible to read the story to mean that. Do you think it is what I have suggested at some point?

All I am saying to Alex is that if he is not comfortable in his relationship with God, I am certain it is due to his sin instead of Adam and Eve's. He seemed to have been saying that it would be different if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the first place, which I did question for validity, but could not find evidence for.

I do accept that according to the story, sin was not in the world and now it is. However, there is no information to suggest that a person born after Adam and Eve's sin will have any more de facto separation from God than a person born before it happened. And thus, the fact that a person might feel separated from God today is not due to Adam and Eve's sin, but their own. This is supported by the fact that some people do not feel separated from God because they have repented of their sin and accepted the gracious forgiveness He has offered them, in order that they can experience His love.

oi_antz said:

I don't see how it would be possible to read the story to mean that. Do you think it is what I have suggested at some point?

All I am saying to Alex is that if he is not comfortable in his relationship with God, I am certain it is due to his sin instead of Adam and Eve's. He seemed to have been saying that it would be different if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the first place, which I did question for validity, but could not find evidence for.

I do accept that according to the story, sin was not in the world and now it is. However, there is no information to suggest that a person born after Adam and Eve's sin will have any more de facto separation from God than a person born before it happened.

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Let me just put it this way. Most of Christianity, regardless of denomination, has long believed in Original Sin, and it's woven into many of our most common practices. Infant baptism, for instance. Didn't any of those Christians have access to the same Bible books as you or I?

Albion said:

Let me just put it this way. Most of Christianity, regardless of denomination, has long believed in Original Sin, and it's woven into many of our most common practices. Infant baptism, for instance. Didn't any of those Christians have access to the same Bible books as you or I?

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It seems like you think I might be wrong about something, is that right?

oi_antz said:

It seems like you think I might be wrong about something, is that right?

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I guess it's not that you disagree, but that you seem be taking on the issue as though you'd never heard of the idea of Original Sin. Since it is basically the answer that Christianity has always given, it would seem essential to deal with it.

Albion said:

I guess it's not that you disagree, but that you seem be taking on the issue as though you'd never heard of the idea of Original Sin. Since it is basically the answer that Christianity has always given, it would seem essential to deal with it.

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I am not sure that what you mean by that expression is consistent with the story that the expression has been derived from. If you can demonstrate to me why you think I have a faulty understanding, that would be worthwhile, otherwise I just do not understand why you are objecting to something I have said. Is this something that you do understand, and is it worth pursuing, or do you think that perhaps you have misread me at some time and formed the wrong impression of a belief that you think I have? Also, please keep in mind that we are not allowed by forum rules to be discussing this on this thread, but I do consider it important for OP's sake that he is informed accordingly of the reliability of whatever I choose to tell him. To that effect, can you please make your next post the last of our conversation on this matter on this thread, explain to OP what your stance is WRT the reliability of what I have told him, and if it is necessary to discuss with me further before you can form an opinion of this that you are confident to offer him, please contact me by private message so we can establish this understanding.

Thank you for what is clearly an attempt on your part to sustain an accurate representation of truth to the OP, and please be assured that I have the same objective, and that I do hope we can provide to him a solid representation of the truth. If that means that we do agree and we have misunderstood each other, I am sure there will not be a problem, but if it means we have a different view of what is true, then we definitely should work that out to mutual satisfaction before we lead OP to view it the way we do. I hope you are with me in this approach.

alexiscurious said:

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

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I don't mean this to be rude, but are you looking for serious answers to these questions or are you looking to debate Christians?

If you are sincerely seeking, I have some answers that might satisfy you.

Brian