Why does "15 Questions for Evolutionists" brochure confuse the meaning of "evolution?

[RickG]

Indeed. I will replace KWCrazy's "theory" which defines evolution as:

Evolution is a scientific theory that attempts to explain the diversification of all species in the absence of God.

....with my own summary of how I can describe evolution:

"Evolution is a scientific theory that explains the diversification of all species. Period." But I could also add to that: ".... apparently because God created the laws of physics in such a way that the universe developed over time to produce life and various diversifications of life because that is what God the Creator described in the Bible willed to happen." Creationists have long claimed that God exists outside of time (and I'm fine with that) and so why should God be confined to only doing things "instantaneously" or in a few thousands years. Wouldn't God do as he wills? Or is he like a human engineer who must watch and tweak and correct everything his machine does? Or is God such a brilliant and powerful engineer that his "machines" can function for billions of years and do exactly what he wants them to do?

A most excellent post.

 

[good brother]

1) Totally false. But whatever. (There are many places in the world, even in the ancient Near East, where 1000 feet of water could be gathered for a year. Whether it "runs off" or not is irrelevant. It only has to stay flooded for a year, but not necessarily at maximum height.)

2) In any case, the Hebrew text of Genesis says that the flood waters were no way near to 1000 feet. Based on the probably cubit size, the Bible states the flood was perhaps 24 feet deep.

At least I appreciate that you make my job very very easy.

So when the Bible says that the mountains were covered to a depth of fifteen cubits, that means that the mountains referred to in Genesis were a whopping nine feet tall? Whew!

 

[Loudmouth]

Blatant lie. Evolution teaches that man evolved, the Bible teaches man was created by God.

There are christians who claim that God created man through evolution.

Babboon spit. If God created an adult tree a logger would say it's 100 years old. If God created a mature planet a geologist would say it's 4.5 billion years old.

How so? Please explain how you came to these conclusions?

If God made a mature planet why would geologists measure it to be 4.5 billion years old? Why not 6,000 years old? Geologists do not measure maturity. They measure the history of isotope decay within the rocks. Even more, they measure the age of rocks that are younger than fossils, and those rocks date in the millions of years. Are you also going to claim that the Earth was created with fossils already in the ground? If not, then you need to explain why these rocks are older than 6,000 years old.

If God created a mature elephant a bilogist would talk about the two year gestation period... and by the way.... where's mama??

Would God create this elephant with scars from lion attacks it never suffered? Would this elephant have a calcification from a bone break it never suffered? What we observe in geology is no different. We observe millions of years of events, not maturity.

We don't claim it either. we know it.

You believe it. Belief is not knowledge.

Adaptation is a conservative process. Evoution pretends magic mutations advance species over billions of years.

We observe mutations happening.

What if God created everything in its mature state, as He said He did?

Would God include a fake 4.5 billion year history?

The problem is you let fools cloud wisdom. If you met someone who was standing in a park and had never left it, he might tell you that the park was the entire world. You know better because you've been outside it and you've seen more.

Sounds precisely like a creationist who thinks that the Bible explains everything without ever gaining any scientific knowledge of the outside world. For example, they might think that transitional fossils don't exist even though they do. They might think that beneficial mutations don't occur, even though they are observed to occur.

The world of the evolutionist isn't much bigger. It's a world in which the only things that exist are what can be seen, felt, touched, smelled and heard. If something could not beproven by these senses, then it must not exist.

You are arguing that the things we can see, feel, touch, smell, and hear don't exist. You are arguing against reality. We have the evidence that demonstrates shared ancestry between us and other species. We have the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old.

 

[good brother]

Or is God such a brilliant and powerful engineer that his "machines" can function for billions of years and do exactly what he wants them to do?

Or is God such a billiant and powerful God that He can do it just like He said He did it in His word?

 

[RickG]

RickG,

I wonder if KWCrazy would say that GRAVITY is a theory which explains how any apple falls to the ground without God's involvement? After all, doesn't the Bible say that when an object falls to the ground, it is because God WILLED that object to move toward the earth?

Exactly the point I was making. Just because the description of something doesn't include God, it doesn't make it a description that denies God. Quite frankly, Christians give me more reason to deny God than science or atheist ever could. I know that's a sad thing to say, but "in your face" religion, my interpretation is the only way, and seeing evil everywhere, is not the way win souls.

 

[Skarl]

Or is God such a billiant and powerful God that He can do it just like He said He did it in His word?

No.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[AV1611VET]

So when the Bible says that the mountains were covered to a depth of fifteen cubits, that means that the mountains referred to in Genesis were a whopping nine feet tall? Whew!

Methinks someone is using "another gospel."

 

[SkyWriting]

Exactly the point I was making. Just because the description of something doesn't include God, it doesn't make it a description that denies God. Quite frankly, Christians give me more reason to deny God than science or atheist ever could.

People are always looking for other people to blame. Adam started that behavior long ago.

 

[46AND2]

Do I need to re-post the quote from the science publication that connects evolution with the single progenitor?

I was speaking of you adding the bit about denying God. Evolution neither rejects nor accepts God. It is totally ambivalent about the subject. So quit adding that to how you define evolution. We get that you don't think they are compatible. Don't presume to know the motives of those who accept evolution.

The problem is that you all have a different definiton and yet you all think yours is the scientific one.

Bull. Science has a very well defined and specific definition for evolution.

Either they lied to you or they didn't.

Lying requires intent to deceive. Therefore they did not lie.

Blatant lie. Evolution teaches that man evolved, the Bible teaches man was created by God.

Do not call me a liar again. I am being as honest with you as I possibly can be. Even if I am wrong, it does not make me a liar.

Last I knew there were about 7.5 BILLION Bibles in print. I bet each of them agree with my interpretation, although some use different words.

Not if the interpretation of your personal Bible is wrong.

Babboon spit. If God created an adult tree a logger would say it's 100 years old. If God created a mature planet a geologist would say it's 4.5 billion years old. If God created a mature elephant a bilogist would talk about the two year gestation period... and by the way.... where's mama??

There is more than just the appearance of age. There is appearance of HISTORY.

The study of nature is possible. The study of origins can only be theoretical.

Evolution is not the study of the origin of life. Quit trying to say it is. We can study the diversification of life.

We don't claim it either. we know it. And we also know that it isn't science. No natural causation created the universe and all that live within it.

No, you believe it.

I knew you would comment on the "science" part of the sentence, so I changed it. See how predictable your arguments are?

Adaptation is a conservative process. Evoution pretends magic mutations advance species over billions of years.

What if God created everything in its mature state, as He said He did?

Why would he put the history in with it, but to deceive us?

The problem is you let fools cloud wisdom. If you met someone who was standing in a park and had never left it, he might tell you that the park was the entire world. You know better because you've been outside it and you've seen more. He could say anything, but you know better. You also know that in time he will discover the world outside the park.

So, do you live on the bench, or under the tree?

The world of the evolutionist isn't much bigger. It's a world in which the only things that exist are what can be seen, felt, touched, smelled and heard. If something could not beproven by these senses, then it must not exist. However, God does not exist in the physical world. The closest you will EVER get to God is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to you when you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and turn your life over to Him. It's not a miraculous overnight change with most people, but a long struggle where your closest friends are often the most critical of you. It's worth it at the end, though. The Kingdom of Heaven cannot be reached through science or lgic. You can only get there by faith.

We do not think that just because we can't sense things they must not exist. But we do need to have a good reason to believe that they do.

We can't sense atoms, but we know they exist, because we have good reason to know they exist.

Likewise, we don't claim that God can't exist, we just have no good reason to think that he does.

 

[Loudmouth]

Or is God such a billiant and powerful God that He can do it just like He said He did it in His word?

Genesis was written by men, not God. As far as I know, the Quran is the only text claimed to have been dictated by Abraham's God.

 

[verysincere]

In MY Bible God specifically says that we are to work for six YOM and rest on the seventh YOM.

Exactly!

But you (and most creationists) conveniently OMIT the fact that that SAME TORAH portion of your Bible says that the same "rest on the 7th" pattern applies to the SABBATH YEAR (the 7th year) and the JUBILEE YEAR (a special sabbath year every 7x7=49 years!)

Why didn't you emphasize the sabbath YEAR and sabbath 7x7 YEAR (Jubilee Sabbath year every 49 years) just as much as you did the 7th DAY? (Not very honest of you, Good Brother!)

Let me say it more simply, you admitted that the Bible says:

1) Work six days and rest the seventh day.

2) But you omitted "work six YEARS and rest the seventh year".

3) And you omitted "work SEVEN WEEKS OF YEARS and observe rest in the JUBILEE SABBATICAL YEAR.

Good Brother, you are a SLY ONE! Lots of talk about "7th day" but not "7th year" or "7 weeks of years" for sabbatical rests on the 7th time period!

Or are you going to keep a straight face while telling us that the SEVENTH YEAR and SEVENTH WEEK OF YEARS are *not* based upon the Genesis 1 pattern of 6+1=7 that produced the sabbath day observance???

===> It was EXACTLY this kind of selective evidence and dishonesty that led me out of the YEC movement of the 1960's as I learned more about what the Bible ACTUALLY STATES.


[And Good Brother, yesterday I posted a very long and detailed presentation of ALL of your YOM=24-hr-day tradition claims and you provided no response. I know that you have nothing but your traditions to depend upon and you do NOT want to discuss the text of the Hebrew Bible that determines these issues. But don't pretend that you are being anything but disingenuous in your very SELECTIVE disclosure of what the Bible says about the 6+1=7 pattern that is expressed in SEVEN YEARS and SEVEN TIMES SEVEN YEARS as well as SEVEN DAYS!]

(HINT: And don't humiliate yourself by following up with the lame claim that there is some grammatical rule that says just because you can find a Hebrew scripture that uses YOM for "24 hour day", that rules out all other definitions for YOM which also appear in the the ancient literature. You are deep over your head and you know it.)

(2nd TIP: And don't play "the evening and the morning was the nth YOM" game. Evening through morning is a "start to finish" idiom....and it defines one NIGHT if taken LITERALLY, not a 24hour day! So don't embarrass yourself by posting it again and again in these forums and then ignorning my rebuttal of it. I'm tired of the dishonesty of pretending that I haven't address those bogus arguments many times.)

 

[CabVet]

Or is God such a billiant and powerful God that He can do it just like He said He did it in His word?

The God described in the Bible certainly can, but did he? Was the Bible really inspired by God? If it was, why would he "plant" evidence contradicting your interpretation of the Bible?

 

[AV1611VET]

Quite frankly, Christians give me more reason to deny God than science or atheist ever could.

Equally frankly, some people aren't as...

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

... as others.

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis was written by men, not God. As far as I know, the Quran is the only text claimed to have been dictated by Abraham's God.

... and written by a man, right?

 

[CabVet]

... and written by a man, right?

Not according to Muslims. But in all likelihood, yes.

 

[good brother]

Genesis was written by men, not God. As far as I know, the Quran is the only text claimed to have been dictated by Abraham's God.

1st Timothy states "All Scripture is God breathed...." So I guess now you know of two texts laying claim to being dictated by the God of Abraham.

FYI, The Quran was written a couple of thousand of years AFTER the OT.

God bless you.

In Christ, GB

 

[verysincere]

Even though the posts of KWCrazy and Good Brother get repetitive of the same debunked claims again and again, I just can't help but enjoy the way they provide such easy setups so that we can so easily SPIKE THE BALL!

Good Brother has played that same lame "the sabbath day requires a six 24hour day creation" argument game so many times that I just figured I would nail it into the ground one last time, once and for all. (He always ignores it every time I post it.) See below on this same thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7706011/#post61926295


.

 

[RickG]

Equally frankly, some people aren't as...

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

... as others.

I don't quite understand what you are saying AV, please clarify.

 

[verysincere]

I don't quite understand what you are saying AV, please clarify.

He appears to be saying that if some sect grows in numbers, that "proves" that they have the truth.

Of course, he doesn't actually belief it. He would consider many of the people who disagree with him on various Bible topics to be cult members.

 

[verysincere]

Does anyone wish to predict how Good Brother will respond to my exposure of his "selective disclosure of scripture" tactic?

My hunch is that he will disappear---as he has every time I expose his "7th day sabbath must mean Genesis 1 was a six 24hour day creation" argument. He NEVER deals with my pointing out that the same Torah Law required rest on the 7th YEAR and the every-49-years JUBILEE YEAR. Good Brother wants to pretend that ONLY the sabbath day is based upon "creation week".

The significance of SEVENS appears throughout the Bible. What is significant in Genesis 1 is the 6+1=7 pattern, not a "definition" of the length of time demanded by the Hebrew word "YOM".