Why do you think people find it so hard to walk away from the RCC?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I've found it hard to leave because of sentimentality, honestly. Growing up in the Catholic Church there was a LOT of things I didn't like, but ultimately the rosary, the Stations of the Cross, the Vatican, the traditions, all those things, they leave a sentimental mark. But as I started going to the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, I realized how far the Catholic Church has fallen liturgically. I mean, it has fallen A LONG WAY downhill. The Divine Liturgy surpases it is every respect and the Orthodox Way is a captivating one.

I find myself, having gone back many, many times to the Catholic Church, angry at Mass, and honestly disgusted. While I see the Orthodox priest facing the altar, incense filling the temple, censing the icons, veneration of icons as we kiss them in reverence, bowing, crossing ourselves hundreds of times during worship, bowing over and over, first-rate beautiful language that is utterly beautiful, a moving communion where the people CANNOT touch the Host and instead kiss the chalice after they receive, a lovely confession of sin, everything done 100% right....

Then I feel a sense of "but I'm Catholic, I should go back to the RCC..." and I see

Baptist-style music
7-8 Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharst trying to "bless" my children and play priest as they put their hands all over the Host
The priest face the people (giving me the feeling it's about us, not Him)
people clap during Mass and it is so informal
people holding hands during the Pater Noster
No use of Latin whatsoever
People looking miserable
People not singing
banal sermons
Go Tell It on the Mountain and other horrific tunes

I walk out of there feeling like it is deflated.....

My hardcore online Catholic friends say, "Ok, the liturgy stinks, the wording is bad, though getting better, there is little reverence, the music is awful, and it is generally not as good as the Anglican or Orthodox liturgies, but the real presence is there!" and I very quickly run back to Orthodoxy breathing a sigh of relief.


Sentimentality, upbringing, and perception is key. I've heard heaps of papal "proofs" used on Catholic message boards that amount to out of context quotes from the Fathers to prove infallibility and other stuff that turns me off.

Catholicism has turned very fundamentalist online. If you're a Democrat, you're a heretic and need to leave. If you're a Republican hardcore Tea Partier, you're more than welcome and a "real" Catholic as opposed to those "cafeteria" ones. There is a rubric of sorts and a strict interpretation that ridicules even the moderates. Online Catholicism isn't always analogous to "real life" Catholicism. Moderates tend not to go online as much as hardcore Right-wingers. that has turned me off in a big way.

Despite the scandals, the locally AWFUL Mass, and so much more, I will always have a sentimental place in my heart for Catholicism. I can't brush it off, can't consider it the absurd "harlot of Babylon" that lunatic anti-Catholics consider it, nor can I feel the CC doesn't play a huge role in the global war against the Culture of Death.

Catholicism has much charm, a huge place in Western history, and much sentimental value for me. It's been hard to leave, but it looks inevitable. When I tell people how many AWFUL experiences I've had with insulting priests (at least five of them), and terrible experiences with NFP, and my overall feelings about so many theological matters, people ask, "why would you even consider Catholicism!!!?" my reply is "sentimentality, and childhood"

 

[fhansen]

I've found it hard to leave because of sentimentality, honestly. Growing up in the Catholic Church there was a LOT of things I didn't like, but ultimately the rosary, the Stations of the Cross, the Vatican, the traditions, all those things, they leave a sentimental mark. But as I started going to the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, I realized how far the Catholic Church has fallen liturgically. I mean, it has fallen A LONG WAY downhill. The Divine Liturgy surpases it is every respect and the Orthodox Way is a captivating one.

I find myself, having gone back many, many times to the Catholic Church, angry at Mass, and honestly disgusted. While I see the Orthodox priest facing the altar, incense filling the temple, censing the icons, veneration of icons as we kiss them in reverence, bowing, crossing ourselves hundreds of times during worship, bowing over and over, first-rate beautiful language that is utterly beautiful, a moving communion where the people CANNOT touch the Host and instead kiss the chalice after they receive, a lovely confession of sin, everything done 100% right....

Then I feel a sense of "but I'm Catholic, I should go back to the RCC..." and I see

Baptist-style music
7-8 Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharst trying to "bless" my children and play priest as they put their hands all over the Host
The priest face the people (giving me the feeling it's about us, not Him)
people clap during Mass and it is so informal
people holding hands during the Pater Noster
No use of Latin whatsoever
People looking miserable
People not singing
banal sermons
Go Tell It on the Mountain and other horrific tunes

I walk out of there feeling like it is deflated.....

My hardcore online Catholic friends say, "Ok, the liturgy stinks, the wording is bad, though getting better, there is little reverence, the music is awful, and it is generally not as good as the Anglican or Orthodox liturgies, but the real presence is there!" and I very quickly run back to Orthodoxy breathing a sigh of relief.


Sentimentality, upbringing, and perception is key. I've heard heaps of papal "proofs" used on Catholic message boards that amount to out of context quotes from the Fathers to prove infallibility and other stuff that turns me off.

Catholicism has turned very fundamentalist online. If you're a Democrat, you're a heretic and need to leave. If you're a Republican hardcore Tea Partier, you're more than welcome and a "real" Catholic as opposed to those "cafeteria" ones. There is a rubric of sorts and a strict interpretation that ridicules even the moderates. Online Catholicism isn't always analogous to "real life" Catholicism. Moderates tend not to go online as much as hardcore Right-wingers. that has turned me off in a big way.

Despite the scandals, the locally AWFUL Mass, and so much more, I will always have a sentimental place in my heart for Catholicism. I can't brush it off, can't consider it the absurd "harlot of Babylon" that lunatic anti-Catholics consider it, nor can I feel the CC doesn't play a huge role in the global war against the Culture of Death.

Catholicism has much charm, a huge place in Western history, and much sentimental value for me. It's been hard to leave, but it looks inevitable. When I tell people how many AWFUL experiences I've had with insulting priests (at least five of them), and terrible experiences with NFP, and my overall feelings about so many theological matters, people ask, "why would you even consider Catholicism!!!?" my reply is "sentimentality, and childhood"

Funny, I could care less about the sentimental value. I didn't care 30+ years ago when I left and I don't care now. My position now is that there simply is no other church to go to, with the exception of the EOC, because there is and never has been any other Christian church, regardless of whether I like that fact or not.

 

[Michie]

So the Lord threw this in my lap lastnight. Gave me some new resolve.

Phillipians 4:4-20

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Thanks for Their Gifts

I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need. Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.

To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It just seems like Catholics focus on a fear based God than a loving & merciful one. As if He is waiting for us to fail. Given all that is offered in our faith it seems like He is our biggest cheerleader. It really depresses me at times. This being one of them.

This is true in particularly in Catholic web forums, were the scrupolis have a large participation.

However, the true Catholic Spirituality, as taught by the contemplatives is one of mercy and love of God that is deeper than what the ascetics of religion can provide.

Without love, God can not be grasped, and it is through contemplative prayer, that we are drawn toward the transforming union love of Jesus Christ.

We can not love truly, until we have been imbued with the love of Jesus Christ. This only can happen through his grace, not by our own actions.


The Catholic Church is a large tent, which has many people of various levels of spirituality. Unfortunately, it those who have the rigidness of the religion who have the loudest voice, while those who have the spiritual depth of love in Jesus Christ, are viewed as liberals who should be thrown out of the Church.

Sad but true, but then, the saints throughout the history of the Church have gone through the same thing.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The bottom line here is, it doesn't matter what your past preceptions of the Church are.

Today is a new day, and Christ waits for you to turn your heart toward him.

The Sacraments of the Church aren't just nice unique rites, but true food for the soul.

Don't attend Mass because it's a mortal sin not to, attend because that's where Jesus is in body and blood, waiting for the union of your entire being with Him.


Begin to live in Christ Jesus, now and don't worry about the rest of the stuff that prevents so many people from growing closer to the Lord.

Jim

 

[Michie]

The bottom line here is, it doesn't matter what your past preceptions of the Church are.

Today is a new day, and Christ waits for you to turn your heart toward him.

The Sacraments of the Church aren't just nice unique rites, but true food for the soul.

Don't attend Mass because it's a mortal sin not to, attend because that's where Jesus is in body and blood, waiting for the union of your entire being with Him.


Begin to live in Christ Jesus, now and don't worry about the rest of the stuff that prevents so many people from growing closer to the Lord.

Jim

Thank you Jim. Both of your posts meant a lot & were needed. I'm hanging in there. It's just getting rid of the resentment I have at times that seems to be my problem.

 

[ivebeenshown]

“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

 

[christseeker45]

Is He really there?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Note that I haven't felt that way either. I am not going to a Baptist church. I'm going to the Orthodox Church, and I feel they have a much stronger case for being the One Church.

Funny, I could care less about the sentimental value. I didn't care 30+ years ago when I left and I don't care now. My position now is that there simply is no other church to go to, with the exception of the EOC, because there is and never has been any other Christian church, regardless of whether I like that fact or not.

 

[fhansen]

Note that I haven't felt that way either. I am not going to a Baptist church. I'm going to the Orthodox Church, and I feel they have a much stronger case for being the One Church.

I know. And I still feel that together they make up the one Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Don't tell them that!

I have a high regard for Catholicism, the religion of my birth. I wish Vatican II had never happened. Had it not occurred, 90% chance I'd be at Mass every Sunday. I think that's true of all the Catholic converts to Orthodoxy that I know. But despite my disagreements with many Catholic approaches and teachings and the liturgy, I love so much about it and refuse to jump on anti-Catholic or "I'm a recovering Catholic" mentalities. That bugs me. When I hear Orthodox diss the CC, I don't like it at all anymore than how my Catholic friends diss Anglicans, etc. We all need to pray for each other! Lord have mercy!

I know. And I still feel that together they make up the one Church.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Catholic Church: Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[underheaven]

One thing I've noticed since converting is that people find it very difficult to walk away from Catholicism. I see more people stay that seem miserable & just go through the motions than leave. Or... trying to change the Church from the inside.

On the other hand, in my protestant days people left their Church all the time. Either in search of another Church that suited them or just a stay at home lone ranger Christian.

Why is that?

For those who are steeped in Catholicism,it is a bit like your family,in that you share the the
'same genes 'etc.
We have evolved as we are, because we are Catholic ,which touched a deeper place than any
previous influence, on our hearts and minds. However those who have 'evolved' ,to know the
Holy Spirit ,need to be allowed to make our own relationship with God ,as 'adults',and the
church does not allow for that , or rather maybe DID NOT .

I have one thing where I diverge from the church ,and that is over reincarnation. I have been
before like others who remember.

There is an assumption on the part of those who do not experience this ,that it is like
buddhism or what ,and that there is no end to the cycles. But there is .
It ends with belief in Jesus.

 

[Fantine]

We have evolved as we are because we are Catholic ,which touched a deeper place than any previous influence on our hearts and minds. However those who have 'evolved' ,to know the Holy Spirit need to be allowed to make out own relationship with God as 'adults',and the church does not allow for that ,
or maybe rather DID NOT.

When I was a little girl in Catholic school (late 1950's, early 1960's) the nuns used to say that when we were grown we would reach a "mature faith." I took that to mean (and still do) that we would ruminate over everything we'd been taught and assimilate it in a way that made sense to us.

And that's exactly what I think I have done (and when I read Hans Kung and Joan Chittister on the Creed, I think that that's what they've done, too.)

And I even think that, underneath their habits, that's what the Sisters that taught us did.

Isn't that what personal faith is? It may be the best kept secret in the Catholic Church. It may be what everybody is afraid to talk about. But I am certain it exists in the hearts of many and even most Catholics.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Don't tell them that!

I have a high regard for Catholicism, the religion of my birth. I wish Vatican II had never happened. Had it not occurred, 90% chance I'd be at Mass every Sunday. I think that's true of all the Catholic converts to Orthodoxy that I know. But despite my disagreements with many Catholic approaches and teachings and the liturgy, I love so much about it and refuse to jump on anti-Catholic or "I'm a recovering Catholic" mentalities. That bugs me. When I hear Orthodox diss the CC, I don't like it at all anymore than how my Catholic friends diss Anglicans, etc. We all need to pray for each other! Lord have mercy!

Stop looking for religion, you'll only end up disappointed, regardless of where you end up.


What you should be seeking is faith in Jesus Christ, which is the point of Catholicism in the first and last place.

Faith is a gift from God. It is the revelation of Himself, however that may happen.

Religion on the other hand, is our response to the faith God has given us.

Too many people seek religion in order to find fulfillment, rather than faith in God, which demands a surrendering of self, which most people are unwilling to do.

They end up joining a particular church and following the tenets ambitiously. However, that eventually becomes a yoke and they begin to argue against the religion, in order to justify their leaving.

Jesus is the opposite of such an endeavor, and those who find Jesus before religion, find religion as a source of freedom, rather than a burden.

Remember Jesus words, "

Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light." Matthew 11:28-30
http://old.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm

If religion is something other than what Jesus says above, then you have religion, but not faith.

Jim

 

[christseeker45]

One thing I've noticed since converting is that people find it very difficult to walk away from Catholicism. I see more people stay that seem miserable & just go through the motions than leave. Or... trying to change the Church from the inside.

On the other hand, in my protestant days people left their Church all the time. Either in search of another Church that suited them or just a stay at home lone ranger Christian.

Why is that?

I been thinking about this and for me I just don't want to leave. I may have doubts and such but I tried everything else and I am comfortable here

 

[steve_bakr]

I been thinking about this and for me I just don't want to leave. I may have doubts and such but I tried everything else and I am comfortable here

As long as it took me to convert to Catholicism, I would not consider leaving. I was a Protestant for many years. Looking back on it, I see that my faith journey was leading me to the Catholic Church. And now I think I am being recruited into the Secular Order of Fransiscans, which has a formation of about two years. My first meeting is Sunday after Mass.

 

[christseeker45]

Kewl. I am looking into the Brothers and Sisters of Penance

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Catholicism is a religion. Of course I have faith in Christ. That's unwavering. But the CC is an institution, it claims to be Christ's True Church, anyone who departs from it to another is considered in a risky state of spiritual affairs, and the CC teaches that religion as far as the organization of the Church on earth, is absolutely necessary. You're oversimplifying things a lot.

Stop looking for religion, you'll only end up disappointed, regardless of where you end up.


What you should be seeking is faith in Jesus Christ, which is the point of Catholicism in the first and last place.

Faith is a gift from God. It is the revelation of Himself, however that may happen.

Religion on the other hand, is our response to the faith God has given us.

Too many people seek religion in order to find fulfillment, rather than faith in God, which demands a surrendering of self, which most people are unwilling to do.

They end up joining a particular church and following the tenets ambitiously. However, that eventually becomes a yoke and they begin to argue against the religion, in order to justify their leaving.

Jesus is the opposite of such an endeavor, and those who find Jesus before religion, find religion as a source of freedom, rather than a burden.

Remember Jesus words, "[/b]

If religion is something other than what Jesus says above, then you have religion, but not faith.

Jim

 

[steve_bakr]

Catholicism is a religion. Of course I have faith in Christ. That's unwavering. But the CC is an institution, it claims to be Christ's True Church, anyone who departs from it to another is considered in a risky state of spiritual affairs, and the CC teaches that religion as far as the organization of the Church on earth, is absolutely necessary. You're oversimplifying things a lot.

I think Jim's words were very wise. Catholicism can be what you make of it. I don't mean that in a liberal sense, but I do mean that the yoke is not as heavy as many think it is.