Then post a verse, because its not in the bible.
It is good for you, ive even read stories about people who acquried problems by refraining from it
What about mary
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Why do you think its wrong
- Thread starter Shizzle
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I thought about quoting and trying to debate you, but decided to start over.
In stead of multiple verses or arguments at a time, lets tackle one at a time.
You said:
If you don't think it's straight forward, tell me why. Don't go to anything else, answer that question with an answer, not another question.
I would ask more, but lets hit each thing one at a time.
In stead of multiple verses or arguments at a time, lets tackle one at a time.
You said:
This context is talking about sex. It mentions hand, sin, and lust. That is pretty straight forward. Why do you think it is NOT talking about masturbation here?
If you don't think it's straight forward, tell me why. Don't go to anything else, answer that question with an answer, not another question.
I would ask more, but lets hit each thing one at a time.
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[BIBLE] If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.[/BIBLE]
i dont think that its talking about masturbation because:
it says right eye as well as right hand, i think right was just added in there for cultural purposes, i cant think of any reason why they wouldnt have just said eye. So right is irrelevant.
That being, "if your eye causes you to sin, get rid of it, if your hand causes you to sin, get rid of it." I dont think hand refers to masturbation, theres no reason why it would, yet hand could be refferring to almost any other sin.
One of the main reasons i think masturbation isnt wrong is this:
Why wouldnt God put it in the bible?
The muslims put it in the toran, it hasnt had a publicity affect on them.
Its not unhealthy, many people argue that it is healthy
I mean, what possible reason other than it isnt wrong would no one in the whole bible have spoken of it.
i dont think that its talking about masturbation because:
it says right eye as well as right hand, i think right was just added in there for cultural purposes, i cant think of any reason why they wouldnt have just said eye. So right is irrelevant.
That being, "if your eye causes you to sin, get rid of it, if your hand causes you to sin, get rid of it." I dont think hand refers to masturbation, theres no reason why it would, yet hand could be refferring to almost any other sin.
One of the main reasons i think masturbation isnt wrong is this:
Why wouldnt God put it in the bible?
The muslims put it in the toran, it hasnt had a publicity affect on them.
Its not unhealthy, many people argue that it is healthy
I mean, what possible reason other than it isnt wrong would no one in the whole bible have spoken of it.
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Youre focusing in on the word right? So what if they said left in stead? You missed the point man...
No reason why that would refer to masturbation??? Ok, when you touch, what do you use? Oh wait, thats right, your hand.
If it is refering to almost any other sin, how about an example? Since there are so many, by saying almost any other, how about 2 or 3 examples?
Why wouldn't McDonalds put, "CAUTION: HOT!!!" on their coffe cups?
Because they didn't think people were stupid and shallow enough to sue over something that was common sense.
But, before we open another can of worms, lets get settled on the first set, even if we need to bust out a dictionary since we seem to be taking everything so literal.
Take care
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i was just pointing out that the word "right" was irrelevant to the rest of the verse, is it not?
hmm, i wonder
You could use your hand for:
Theft
Murder
Adultery
Rape
Idolism
Channeling (oija board)
ect. ect.
Well, obviously we are stupid enough, you think God wouldnt know that we would be asking this?Common sense is societys viewpoint, we are supposed to be of God, not of this world. In europe, at one time it was common sense that to go against the word of the church was blasphemy, it was common sense that you worshipped the pope. We should not lower ourselves to societys viewpoint.
todays dictionary doesnt have the same definitions as were in times pastBut, before we open another can of worms, lets get settled on the first set, even if we need to bust out a dictionary since we seem to be taking everything so literal.
Take care
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You might be surprised, but I also think masturbation is ok. I think the argument you are currently using is wrong becuase you are taking everything out of context.
This verse:
Matthew 5: 27-30
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
is talking about lust, and encompasses everything sexual. So when you listed a list of possible sins associated with this section, you were incorrectly taking things out of context.
You can't rule out masturbation when this section is talking about lust and sexual activities.
You have done the same with every verse listed (I think, i'd have to go through and re-read which I dont have time to do atm). You mention one verse, taken out of context and use it to suit your point of view, which is incorrect. However, you are correct in saying that the misguided church has put useless rules and regulations on things that shouldn't have them, such as the view on sex and the various acts that come from it.
God DID list a whole slew of items that were off limits in leviticus, of which masturbation was not amond the list. You are correct in assuming that if God made a list of things that were no-nos and left something off, you can safely presume that it is ok to do.
This is very dangerous territory, and I dont presume to tell you what is right and wrong, but am just trying to help you convey your points in a manner that is much less hostile, and that will in turn make your arguments much more credible. Don't take it as a challenge, but as a discussion for everyone to get involved in without them having to defend themselves.
Thats all from me for the moment
This verse:
Matthew 5: 27-30
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
is talking about lust, and encompasses everything sexual. So when you listed a list of possible sins associated with this section, you were incorrectly taking things out of context.
You can't rule out masturbation when this section is talking about lust and sexual activities.
You have done the same with every verse listed (I think, i'd have to go through and re-read which I dont have time to do atm). You mention one verse, taken out of context and use it to suit your point of view, which is incorrect. However, you are correct in saying that the misguided church has put useless rules and regulations on things that shouldn't have them, such as the view on sex and the various acts that come from it.
God DID list a whole slew of items that were off limits in leviticus, of which masturbation was not amond the list. You are correct in assuming that if God made a list of things that were no-nos and left something off, you can safely presume that it is ok to do.
This is very dangerous territory, and I dont presume to tell you what is right and wrong, but am just trying to help you convey your points in a manner that is much less hostile, and that will in turn make your arguments much more credible. Don't take it as a challenge, but as a discussion for everyone to get involved in without them having to defend themselves.
Thats all from me for the moment
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The CCC-
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.
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what is that
its not the bible
Just because something sounds right, if it has no logical support, then it has no merit.
its not the bible
Just because something sounds right, if it has no logical support, then it has no merit.
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Shizzle said:
What do you find illogical about it? The bible tells us that lust is wrong, and these cannot be committed without lust.
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The bible does not say sexual fantasies are wrong, definitions mixed up. The modern definition of lust is sexual fantasies, but it was not so when the bible was written.
Numbers 11:4
And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
It means wants here
Deuteronomy 12:15
Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
Wants again
Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Wants again
James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Every man is tempted, but when his lust consumes him and he acts upon it, it bringeth forth sin. Wants? Desires?
There are many more verses, but. Todays meaning of lust does not match what it was when the bible was written.
Give me anyone verse that says lusts are wrong, but even if you can, wants are not equal to sexual fantasies.
How do you come by the conclusion that you cant touch without fantasizing?
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Can you imagine Jesus [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off? I sure can't.
By masterbating one is giving into his/her urges, and the only reason one has not fornicated with a person is because the opportunity has not been presented.
It is both logical, obvious and scriptual that touching yourself is sin. One brother already presented you with a straight-forward verse from Matthew. It is so typically human to try and explain and define our way out of things. Your explanation for this verse failed miserably, and I bet your conscience convicts you of it.
Not trying to be holier-than-thou here, just saying it is obvious that you are trying to justify what you know in your heart is wrong.
By masterbating one is giving into his/her urges, and the only reason one has not fornicated with a person is because the opportunity has not been presented.
It is both logical, obvious and scriptual that touching yourself is sin. One brother already presented you with a straight-forward verse from Matthew. It is so typically human to try and explain and define our way out of things. Your explanation for this verse failed miserably, and I bet your conscience convicts you of it.
Not trying to be holier-than-thou here, just saying it is obvious that you are trying to justify what you know in your heart is wrong.
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Can you imagaine Jesus straining on the jon with diarrhea? I sure dont want to. This argument is culturally related, not biblically, or logically, culture is irrelevant.
no, what logical or biblical support do you have for this
No its not, give me one verse that infers masturbation to be wrong, just one and ill show you how youve misinterpreted it by logically breaking it down, why wouldnt God have just said "thou shalt not touch", like he did "thou shalt not commit adultery"
In the olden days of hebrew language this would have been clear, but now we must decipher the exact meaning because of translation misconepptions, this will not fail miserabley:
3. Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Causes:
A. Looketh upon a woman
B. To lust after her
Effects:
A. Adultery in your heart (thus sin)
in masturbation, cause A and B is not fulfilled.
in sexual fantasies, cause A is not fulfilled.
in animated porn, cause A is not fulfilled.
This verse was very specific about how adultery could be commited in your heart, it is not saying that adultery can be commited in your heart as it can in reality.
it is not obvious, and there is no scripture that even INFERS that masturbation is sunful. Why would God not have put it in there that its wrong? hmm.. because its not.
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Shizzle said:
Of course you don't want to. Wanting to is what is irrelevant, my friend. It is indeed a sin, and our own morals tell us this regardless of what justification you need to try and disprove it. Christ does not possess the ability to do such a thing, for it is a sin of grave matter. To think that he could possibly do this would tell me that you need to understand who Christ is in the first place. This borders on heresy, my friend. Tread lightly.
Shizzle said:
The most basic of Christian morals. If you possess these morals, then it would be illogical to think otherwise.
Shizzle said:
By masturbating and lusting after a woman - any woman - [or man, I guess
] married, celibate, engaged, dating, or one who will be married in the future, you are commiting adultery in your heart. Masturbation is a gross misuse of the sexual facility, and makes a mockery of God's gift to us. We should treat our bodies as temples and use them to glorify and house the living God, not to satisfy our sinful desires. And I tell you that it is indeed sinful, no matter how you try to justify it. Shizzle said:
That is ridiculous. Junk like this makes my blood boil. I don't know how to touch this, without sinning myself, so I will simply tell you that you are grossly disecting and twisting the words of The Lord, and remind you that you will be judged along with the rest of us. This is indeed heresy.
1.) In masturbating you are misusing the sexual facility and using it to pleasure yourself, when sex was meant to be a giving of spouses to each other. Masturbation is a sinful act in that it is a giving of yourself to yourself. It is entirely selfish, no matter what way you try to twist it. Christ calls us to be the lowest of the low as he was, and to forget our own needs and tend to his flock. Not to misuse his gifts to pleasure ourselves and bring glory to sin in our thoughts and desires.
2.) This one was pathetic. You don't have to use your eyes and look at a woman to lust for her body [a temple of The Lord] in your heart to fill your own desire.
3.) Also pathetic. You're glorifying sex outside of marriage if even in your fantasies. Think about Christ, not women.
And it is saying that adultery can be commited in the heart. I don't even understand how you came to this conclusion.
Shizzle said:
It is obvious, and for that reason, there is no need for scripture to call you on it. the bible tells us to live a pure lifestyle, not one filled with anime porn and misuse of our Christian Temples.
I do not mean only to critize you bro, I admit that I have struggled with this sin as well. I guess that adds to my anger that you are trying to justify your sin. But I leave you a strong warning, this kind of sin turns you off the Christian path every time it is commited. I will pray for you. God Bless.
Sean C.
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Thats not what i meant, i was using a similar analogy.
Im not justifying it, im saying that the bible does not say it is a sin, and since the Bible is the written word of the lord, it is indeed not a sin.
And what are the most basic of Christian morals, you mean the churches attitude? We should not accept societies and cultural views blindly
When adultery was used back in the hebrew language, it meant illicit sex. When Jesus says "you have committed adultery in your heart" hes saying "you have commited illicit sex in your heart" thus sin. Since hes saying that, you cant say that all the other ways he defined adultery(illicit sex) can be done in your heart because when he defined it he was talking about actions.. Im not really saying what im trying to say here but i dont know how to say it.By masturbating and lusting after a woman - any woman - [or man, I guess
And i tell you that it is not sinful at all, just another common misconception of the church thats been influenced by the puritanical and catholic ancestors of the 1700'sh age.
No, you make yourself mad, nothing can make you angry except yourself. Anger cannot exist easily with love, Jesus and God are the ultimate persona of love.
And i am simply telling you that you are incorrect, and that by not masturbating you have a much higher risk of prostate cancer. Look it up on google.
Yes, but masturbation is not sex.
Yes, but it states to conditions, if they are both not fulfilled, illicit sex does not take place.
I dont know what your responding to, what are you responding to.
I came to this conclusion by:
Adultery has been mistranslated in our minds to the effect that we define it as sex outside marriage, when it does indeed mean illicit sex. If God says you do this and you commit illicit sex, then thats just it. Just becasue he says you can commit illicit sex in your heart, doesnt mean that all other types of illicit sex are illicit when in your heart. I am not twisting this, read it again it really makes clear sense.
Still, i challenge you to the depths of this discussion to bring any 1 random verse that infers masturbation to be wrong. Just because you state it doesnt mean that it infers masturbation to be wrong, and im telling you that i will be able to show you why it doesnt infer masturbation to be wrnog
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Shizzle said:
The bible doesn't even mention it so with that logic; since it isn't mentioned, we shouldn't do it. The bible doesn't mention abortion directly, but it talks about related things.
Shizzle said:
No, I don't mean the attitude of denomonations. I would say that this belief of sexual immorality is a product of culture. You said you've used anime porn, right? That's definately a product of society. The Church however is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is Godly.
Shizzle said:
Well you should, if you're trying to prove a point. He was telling us to keep our thoughts pure.
Shizzle said:
The Church is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Today's society is curropted(sp) and is sexually immoral.
Shizzle said:
Christ was angered in the face of unrepentant sin as well. You're telling me that God has never been angry?
Shizzle said:
Ahh, so now it is for health reasons. I eat cherrios because the box says it's good for my heart and cholesteral and what not, but if eating cherrios seperated me from God in some way, I certainly wouldn't buy cherrios ever again.
Shizzle said:
It is open misuse of the sexual facility. It is just as sinful as sex outside of marriage, if not more sinful because it is entirely a selfish act.
Shizzle said:
Nor does masturbation, bro.
Shizzle said:
Anime porn.
Shizzle said:
No, I still don't understand how commiting an act of illicit sex out side of marriage is less sinful that committing adultery (as society defines it) in your heart.
Shizzle said:
This isn't about scripture, because scripture can be twisted and misinterpreted. Christian morals cannot. I am not referring to Church teaching, but the morals given to us by the Holy Spirit.
Do you condone pre-martitol sex? If not, this sin is no different. It has been commited in your heart, and you have defiled your Holy Temple by giving in selfish and primitive impulses.
Shizzle said:
It is no different than forication in the spiritual sense. Worse still, you essentially lose your virginity to yourself. And what is the point of this thread if not to justify your sin?
I donno, ask him. Probably because since he put all other sexual sins in there, he didn't have to tell ancient Jews not to misuse their sexual facility. This sin is no different than adultery and fornication, except in the physical sense. If you had the opporotunity when you were lusting after a woman you would most likely have sex with her. That's what makes the sin so devious. It attacks our morals and makes us question the validity of the scripture, because the sin which so holds us back from God is not directly mentioned. I had trouble with this as well, and this is what made it such a struggle.
Sean C.
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Would God have randomly put "It is okay for thee to touch" somewhere in the bible? What reason did God have for not saying masturbation was wrong? it isnt, thats the only explanation.
The bible infers abortion to be wrong because he says not to murder, however it is not so with masturbation, am i wrong? post one random verse.
The church was inspired by God, but it is definitely not Godly. Remember when the pope held power and the corrupt catholic church was at large?
And what makes sexual thoughts impure?
Your not even debating what i said, what logical proof do you stand on
"when you die you will be on a giant smoldering taco and melt into the meat"
The church may have been inspired by the holy spirit, but what percent of christians do you see as evangelists today? thats our only purpose in life, yet so many christians ignore it, the church of today is not necessarily of the Holy Spirit.
alright, point, God has been angry. However, when was christ angered by unrepentant sin? verse
Masturbation is not a sin at all. Whether or not its good for you is irrelevant, i was just stating a fact.
No it is not, the bible does not say that, so this opinion has no merit.
Causes:
A. Looketh upon a woman
B. To lust after her
You mean to tell me that you cannot touch without both of these things happening?
who says they cant be married?
because the sex is not illicit when in your heart, who says you couldnt be married in your fantasy?
i do not condone premarital sex, it was shown to be wrong by God. This sin is different, it is allowed by God and thus is not a sin. You cannot say that thee impulse is selfish or primitive.
The point of this thread is so that the poor kid who is to paranoid about sin and goes surfing the web to find the answer can find this page and see all the different arguments against masturbation, and why they are illogical and unscripturally supported. Then he can save himself from wasting time on struggling against something that is not a sin.
No that doesnt fit, he puts all the other sinds in there, what is he to lazy to put one more? no, the only explanation is that it is indeed not a sin.
yes it is different, it is not a sin.
why would it make us question the validity of the scriptures? no
didnt God say that if you think it is a sin, then it is one? It is not directly mentioned, nor is it feintly inferred. therefore, it is not wrong.
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Paleoconservatarian
God's grandson
There's nothing like sin to turn a guy into a precise exegete. 
Sanctification doesn't mean getting as close to sin as possible without actually sinning.
Sanctification doesn't mean getting as close to sin as possible without actually sinning.
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