Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Can you explain the word 'essence' simply in your own words?
I have a hard time trying to work out how one person can be a family
So when Jesus is saying "I and the Father are one" He actually means "I and the Father are composed of the same substance but we are two different Persons". If you find that a satisfying explanation then stick with that but it strikes me as an oxymoron.I would say since both are God that they have the same divine essence which they are composed of, uncreated and immortal.
So when Jesus is saying "I and the Father are one" He actually means "I and the Father are composed of the same substance but we are two different Persons". If you find that a satisfying explanation then stick with that but it strikes me as an oxymoron.
.
Even using the Greek that you have quoted, Jesus is saying that He and the Father are both the same Spirit. The wonderful truth of the Gospel is not that the First Person sent the Second Person, but that God Himself came in His fullness and became our Kinsman Redeemer.It's Greek grammar. Reject that and invent your own beliefs. I will stick to what is true.
Even using the Greek that you have quoted, Jesus is saying that He and the Father are both the same Spirit.
Never would I agree to Jesus and the Father being two different people because to me that is polytheism. There is a distinction between the humanity of Jesus and His Deity, which is where Trinitarians get confused.It's all good as long as we understand Jesus and the Father are two different people but are the same God.
It's all good as long as we understand Jesus and the Father are two different people but are the same God.
Never would I agree to Jesus and the Father being two different people because to me that is polytheism.
You might find it worthwhile to do more research on the hen/heis controversy because its use is not as clear cut as you seem to think.
I noticed you quoted those who agreed with your povI have shown that I have done the work. You might try doing it as well.
That's incorrect.
I have shown that I have done the work. You might try doing it as well.[/QUO
No, he is dead right. If you view the members of the Trinity as three separate, unique personalities, then you do have tritheism, pure and simple. God, then, is said to be one in that all share the nature of Deity. However, three men share in common human nature, but are still three men. Or, God is said to be one in that the three work together in perfect harmony. However, there people working in harmony are still three people.
That doesn't make any sense. If they are two different people, tow different personalities, then we have two gods, not one. Two men have in common human nature, but are still two men, for example.It's all good as long as we understand Jesus and the Father are two different people but are the same God.
So when Jesus is saying "I and the Father are one" He actually means "I and the Father are composed of the same substance but we are two different Persons". If you find that a satisfying explanation then stick with that but it strikes me as an oxymoron.
.
I would say since both are God that they have the same divine essence which they are composed of, uncreated and immortal.
I don't find it very complex, just incorrect.
The Father and Son are. The Holy Spirit is a spirit.
According to Greek Grammar he used it as one in essence.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:30
Egoó kaí ho Pateér hén esmen
1473 2532 9999 3588 3962 1520 2070
I and my Father one are
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)
"One. Gr. "hen" Neut., one in essence, not one person which would be "heis", masc. This is the climax of His claim to oneness with The Father in vv. 18, 25, 28, 29. Compare also V. 38; 14:11 Rev 22:3"
According to Bullinger, an accomplished Greek scholar, the word for "one" is "hen" the Neut. form of the word "heis". "heis" means "one" of person but "hen" means "one" in essence and not one person!
John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].
or
John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one.
This is what Christ said.
Matthew Henry also confirms this:
http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC43010.HTM
Further to corroborate the security, that the sheep of Christ may have strong consolation, he asserts the union of these two undertakers: "I and my Father are one, and have jointly and severally undertaken for the protection of the saints and their perfection." This denotes more than the harmony, and consent, and good understanding, that were between the Father and the Son in the work of man's redemption. Every good man is so far one with God as to concur with him; therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son, that they are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory. The fathers urged this both against the Sabellians, to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two, and against the Arians, to prove the unity of the nature, that these two are one. If we should altogether hold our peace concerning this sense of the words, even the stones which the Jews took up to cast at him would speak it out, for the Jews understood him as hereby making himself God (v. 33) and he did not deny it. He proves that none could pluck them out of his hand because they could not pluck them out of the Father's hand, which had not been a conclusive argument if the Son had not had the same almighty power with the Father, and consequently been one with him in essence and operation.
"the union of these two undertakers"
"therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son"
"to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two"
"one with him in essence and operation"
Matthew Henry also knew that the greek for "one" was meaning one in essence, not in person as Bullinger also confirmed.
Gill
I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, "I and my Father", esµe?, "we are one"; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power
Robertson's word pictures:
John 10:30
One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Gal_3:28), but one essence or nature.
I've seen it used actually. One person in three modes depicted as a family unit.
.
They aren't separate Gods though. That's why it's not polytheism.
That's modalism. The Trinity is neither of these examples.
.
Why do you cite the Johannie Comma when this has proven to be a much later "addition" to Scripture? It's merely later tampering by Trinitarians.Reading isn't enough. Reading and understanding is needed and you don't understand that the Trinity is presented in scripture.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
G5140
treis tria
trice, tree'-ah
A primary (plural) number; “three”: - three.
In scripture the Greek word for three is "treis" (pronounced as TRICE) and translated into Latin it became "trinitas" which means "the number three, a triad, three". Eventually it became "three" in English related to the prefix "Tri" which also means three from which the English word Trinity originates. Since scripture states "three that bear record in heaven" and lists the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as those three we can firmly know the Trinity is a scriptural term originating from the Greek for the word "three".
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all called God in various scriptures so three that are all called God comes full circle to God being a Trinity.
It did not originally have anything to do with "three persons" but simply "three". That is the purist meaning of the word Trinity without addition or alteration.
To coin a new word, Threenity.
You don't have to believe in the trinity to be saved. Anyone who tries to tell you that is a liar. It's not a point of argument when a lie is spoken so as to mislead the Saints. Recognize the lie, move on, and let those who perpetrate the lie live with the consequences that befalls false doctrine.
Then you are definitely tritheistic. No doubt about it.God is definitely not one person because the Son is a person and the Father is a different person. I believe the three should simply be named: The one God is composed of three: the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit.
Have you not read Galatians 1:8? Any who teach that the Trinity is a false doctrine are contradicting the Apostles and are anathema. Our Lord himself says that many will call Him Lord but not be saved, but he who believes on him will be saved and inherit eternal life.
What does this mean? John 1:1-14 unambiguously declares our Lord to be God incarnate, and Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7-9 (even without the Comma Johanneum) declare the Trinity. St. Athanasius, who determined all these books were canonical, was the most impassioned defender of the deity of Christ and the Trinity during the fourth century.
So I believe this verse refers to Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses and others who call Jesus Christ Lord, while denying his identity as the incarnate Word of God (John 1:14). They will call him Lord, but having cut themselves off from His Church, the Body of Christ (see: Paul, for example, 1 Corinthians 10:17), they tragically will not participate in the salvation provided in and through the Church; if they are saved, it will only be due to a special act of mercy on God's part.
Why do you cite the Johannie Comma when this has proven to be a much later "addition" to Scripture? It's merely later tampering by Trinitarians.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?