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Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

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The Barbarian

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This is from Wikipedia TODAY.. Is this wrong? According to YOU it is..

As you learned, your strange idea of the common ancestor involved all three domains. Because you had no idea, it was... interesting. I see you've cut and pasted some data, but it's far from clear that you understand it. You merely invented your own hybrid hypothesis for whatever reason.

Have you invented your OWN hybrid hypothesis to fit your emotional
needs?

Ah, projection. You're sticking pretty close to the script. But we're drifting away from why creationism is wrong, to how much you dislike the Evil Barbarian©. What say you bring out some more of your ideas about evolution,so we can continue and not bore the onlookers?
 
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coffee4u

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I was pointing out that I have rarely seen such dishonesty as I have see from this Person

The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

Ah yes, I put him on ignore, extremely rude. Maybe that flies with his old male buddies but not this old lady.

Dear Mr Barbarian learn how to converse with a lady and I may unignore you.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"If you have to lie about what I believe and don't believe to make your point,"

It would be easy for you to just tell us and clear it up but you wont because Oval-Earthers are tricky and very D I S H O N E S T. Otherwise they wouldnt be Evolutionists in the first place.. Because the person they are actually lying to the most is... THEMSELVES
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Ah yes, I put him on ignore, extremely rude. Maybe that flies with his old male buddies but not this old lady.

Dear Mr Barbarian learn how to converse with a lady and I may unignore you.

You are smart for doing that.. The blatant dishonesty is actually stunning... I would do the same thing as you but Exposing these frauds happens to be what I do best... God Bless You.. Are you down in Australia?
 
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The Barbarian

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If you have to lie about what I believe and don't believe to make your point, that's an important clue about your ideas, isn't it? It is possible that you are so indoctrinated that you think your new doctrines are actually essential to Christian belief.

It would be easy for you to just tell us and clear it up but you wont because Oval-Earthers are tricky and very D I S H O N E S T.

You're the one who misrepresented what I believe. So you're telling me that you're an "Oval-Earther?"

Adam and Eve, as I showed you, were real people. It's entirely possible to have an allegory about real people and real events, such as Adam and Eve, the Fall, the Flood, and so on.

Not that all creationists are dishonest; many are not. So, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume that once again you let your imagination run away with you.

And for the second time, let's get back on track. This isn't about how dishonest Thinnsen is, it's about evolution. If you have anything left relevant to the issue, let's talk about it.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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The onlookers are already bored with you bobbing and weaving evading and avoiding.. But I love to expose Satan's greatest lie of Evolutionism for people... Here... Let's try again..

This is from Wikipedia TODAY.. Is this wrong?

If it is wrong, tell us why.. I will brace our readers for another non answer/ non sequitur but hey.. You have all the bumper stickers and talking points worked out fairly well.. Maybe another meaningless quote from Todd Wodd? He gave FINCHES BEAKS as one of his examples of "gobs and gobs" of evidence to support the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Satan...
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"Adam and Eve, as I showed you, were real people. It's entirely possible to have an allegory about real people and real events, such as Adam and Eve, the Fall, the Flood, and so on"

HAHAHAH

Yup.. Just like I predicted to our readers.. You provided a vague and meaningless NON Answer.. But hey, you are good at it!!

Was Abraham Lincoln a real person? Or de we just have an Allegory about him being president... LOL

You got to give me credit, I am starting to get your sense of humor, although I suspect it is just mental and emotional contortions that you are going through instead... Have a wonderful evening!!!
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"This isn't about how dishonest Thinnsen is, it's about evolution. "

What do you mean with the term "evolution"?
Do you mean what is being taught in the public school biology textbooks today that posits that all flora and fauna descended from the same microbial common ancestor over the course of 3 billion years?
 
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The Barbarian

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What do you mean with the term "evolution"?

Think back. Try to remember what the scientific definition of "evolution" is. It's important that you can remember that, if you want to talk about it.

One more time: "change in allele frequency in a population over time."

Do you mean what is being taught in the public school biology textbooks today

That's what's in the textbooks. "Change in allele frequency in a population over time." Write it down, so you won't forget.

that posits that all flora and fauna descended from the same microbial common ancestor over the course of 3 billion years?

You're confusing the phenomenon of evolution with a consequence of evolution. But you're seeing a lot of things for the first time. Write this down, so you don't forget: "common descent is not evolution; it's a consequence of evolution."
 
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The Barbarian

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Was Abraham Lincoln a real person? Or de we just have an Allegory about him being president... LOL

Lots of allegories about Lincoln. One popular one is his walking 10 miles to borrow a book and then returning it. You see, Lincoln was a real president, but as you just learned, it's possible for there to be allegories about real people and real events. There are lots of allegories about presidents. Washington tossing a dollar across the Potomac, for example. Or the cherry tree story, which is a pretty clever allegory; you see it was against the law in the British Empire at the time to chop down a cherry tree. So the story establishes Washington as an honest little rebel.

He couldn't have tossed a dollar across the Potomac; just too wide. But he might have done it across the Rappahannock, which was close by his home, and not nearly as wide.
 
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coffee4u

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You are smart for doing that.. The blatant dishonesty is actually stunning... I would do the same thing as you but Exposing these frauds happens to be what I do best... God Bless You.. Are you down in Australia?

Yes, I'm an Aussie. Small country town, the church teaches creation. Some members here are personal friends with Ken Ham from before he moved to the US.

I am not one much for science-I will leave that to you, but I am one for doctrine and I am still waiting for scriptural support of evolution and how this ties in with other verses throughout the Bible. If their interpretation of Genesis is correct surely they can find some scriptural support for it? Have some sound teaching on why the Bible says there was no death before sin? *Reads the entire works of Shakespeare while waiting*
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"I am not one much for science-I will leave that to you, but I am one for doctrine and I am still waiting for scriptural support of evolution and how this ties in with other verses throughout the Bible"

Good point.. You won't find any, because Satan's greatest lie of Evolutionism is diametrically OPPOSED to the Bible.. That is why I asked them when they are going to present us with the Evolutionary Bible with all of the edits and omissions and additions so we can know what we should believe! (Sarc Off)

I truly believe that if one truly repents and becomes born again of the spirit and becomes a member of Gods eternal kingdom like Jesus commanded his followers to do ( ie ..become a Christian ) The Scales will fall from ones eyes and they will immediately be healed of the madness of Evolutionism...

On another note, I plan on visiting Melbourne and Adelaide and Perth in January (God willing)
Must be around lunchtime on Sunday over there..
I live in Newport Beach CA.. Ever been up here for a visit?
Kind regards Jim Thinnsen
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"Lots of allegories about Lincoln. One popular one is his walking 10 miles to borrow a book and then returning it. You see, Lincoln was a real president, but as you just learned, it's possible for there to be allegories about real people and real events"

Yea . I know.. Like throwing a dollar across the Potomic OR flooding the Entire World and killing everything that breathes.. I mean. Not much difference right? Just like your point about Horses and Bats.. The first thing I think about when I see a Bat is "How did that Horse learn to fly!" OR How did that Bat learn to run so fast?

Is this the way it is with you? Comedy Strawman Hour all day every day? Ajajajajaha
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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"One more time: "change in allele frequency in a population over time."

Well.. With THAT meaningless and irrelevant definition.. ALL 7 BILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE EVOLUTIONISTS!!! (Including me)

We OBSERVE changes in allele frequencies in populations over time!! Observation is part of the Scientific Method!! (Good thing to put in your notes)

SMALL CHANGES PLUS "DEEP TIME" LEADS TO LARGE CHANGES? (By JT)


Sorry, it doesnt work that way.. Even though Atheists lie and say it has been debunked, (which it hasn't,) everything is IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX... The mechanism of Evolutionism couldn't even build A SIMPLE MOUSETRAP!! That is why I ask for, and NEVER GET, a plausible evolutionary order for man's 10 VITAL organs.. if a microbe S L O W L Y evolved into a human (or ANY mammal) as we are told,.. (But you deny) there must have been a Chronological evolutionary order for our 10 VITAL organs.. Which VITAL organ evolved 1st? Heart? 2nd? Lungs? 3rd Brain? 4th? Pancreas? 5th? Skin? 6th Liver? 7th? U intestine? 8th? Stomach? 9th? L intestine? 10? Kidneys? Oh, dont forget all of the support systems and the fact that all of these organs are interlocked and ALL must be working together perfectly in tandem or we DIE. And guess what?? DEAD THINGS CANT EVOLVE!! Get the idea? So go ahead and provide a plausible evolutionary order for mans 10 VITAL organs from 1 through 10.. I will even allow Abiogenesis, Dinosaur red blood cells, Symbiotic relationships, 500 million year old "living fossils", polystrate trees, and all of the other "challenges" because you can bury those into the fairytale of "Long ago and far away" miracles that you can pretend that you dont actually think about using logic, reason, or critical thinking but the 10 VITAL organs is your Achilles Heel... now either provide an evolutionary ORDER for our 10 VITAL ORGANS that passes the comic book laugh test or just go away as YOUR religion is a hopeless fraud and you will be forced to tacitly recognize as such with your silence......

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fullfilled Atheist" Richard Dawkins
 
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coffee4u

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Well I know, but I am still interested in their doctrine, only none of them seem to have any!


I think people can come to saving faith without believing in creation but it must be very narrow and without seeing the beauty of the entire picture. Like looking at the Sistine chapel through a tiny peephole. It's for God to judge.
I do think continual belief in evolution could erode someone's faith until there is nothing left.

On another note, I plan on visiting Melbourne and Adelaide and Perth in January (God willing)
Must be around lunchtime on Sunday over there..
I live in Newport Beach CA.. Ever been up here for a visit?
Kind regards Jim Thinnsen

Be prepared for the climate, Melbourne is notorious for being cold and hot. The best time to visit WA is September for the spectacular wildflowers. September is the best time for most of Oz. Bring a good hat and plenty of sunscreen- the sun is no joke down here.
It is 3pm now.
I've never been to the US, much too expensive but I would love to see the Grand Canyon -a lot of water over a short period of time.

Blessings.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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The thing that makes me wonder is when debating these people, and every single one of thier positions is indistinguishable from those of an Atheist and I mean ALL OF THEM! I have to ask myself why that is. Dont you wonder about that, I mean in the last few posts the guy was arguing with me against things being DESIGNED!! What kind of logic is THAT?
 
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coffee4u

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To them, evolution has been prooved so they are left with no other choice but claim God used evolution. They don't seem troubled that no scripture backs it up, or that Jesus is the second Adam or of no death before sin, somehow that is all spiritualized away. I think all or most do not believe in Sola Scriptura.
The other option I have seen posted about here is that evolution happened on the 'first creation' and that our creation was a remake. They claim Genesis 1 was the first and that Genesis 2 is the second. But let's not worry about those poor people made in the first creation because apparently they are the ape-men. It's yet another attempt to harmonize the Bible to evolutionary science.
 
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The Barbarian

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One more time: "change in allele frequency in a population over time."


Well.. With THAT meaningless and irrelevant definition..

It's the scientific definition. If the gene pool of a population changes, that's evolution.

We OBSERVE changes in allele frequencies in populations over time!!

You're wising up. So evolution is an observed phenomenon. Now pay attention to this; you don't object to evolution as Darwin formulated it ("descent with modification"), or the definition informed by genetics, ("change in allele frequency in a population over time"). You object to a consequence of evolution (common descent). Some YE creationists still object to agencies of evolution, like natural selection, but most no longer do. As you learned earlier, most creationist organizations like AIG and ICR now admit a limited amount of common descent, meaning new species, genera, and families of organisms from earlier ones). Some go a bit farther. John Woodmorappe once told me in an email conversation that the limit would be roughly at the level of family, so it's not a hard limit.

SMALL CHANGES PLUS "DEEP TIME" LEADS TO LARGE CHANGES? (By JT)

Can. Mountains for example very slowly erode over many millions of years, but you could spend a lifetime watching mountain, and notice no change at all. On the other hand, as you were taught, sometimes, it can be very fast, like those lizards that evolved a new digestive organ in a few decades. Can you remember why the pace of evolution is not always the same? Think back.

Sorry, it doesnt work that way.

It always works that way. As you have seen, pacing of evolutionary change depends on fitness of the population to the environment.

Even though Atheists lie and say it has been debunked, (which it hasn't,) everything is IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX...

It is, and it surely befuddles a lot of creationists to learn that the amount of evolution that goes on in a population can vary, depending on fitness.

The mechanism of Evolutionism couldn't even build A SIMPLE MOUSETRAP!!

But evolution can and does. Your religion of "evolutionism" has nothing to do with evolution. Even Behe now admits that his "irreducibly complex" mousetrap isn't irreducibly complex. Would you like to learn why? Part of it is that he didn't realize that a simpler mousetrap was possible.
A reducibly complex mousetrap

The other part is something called "exaption." Would you like to learn how that works?

[quote[That is why I ask for, and NEVER GET, a plausible evolutionary order for man's 10 VITAL organs.[/quote]

I showed you how lungs evolved, and suggested that you pick another one (have no idea why you think there are only ten). You declined to go any further. I think I know why. But feel free to pick any one of them and I'll show youl.

. if a microbe S L O W L Y evolved into a human (or ANY mammal) as we are told,..

As you learned, humans evolved from primates. And if you would like, I can show you how mammals evolved from therapsid reptiles which already had most of the features we find in mammals. Would you like to learn about that?

(But you deny) there must have been a Chronological evolutionary order for our 10 VITAL organs..

No, you made that up again. For example, the integument (skin in vertebrates) preceded all others. Your problem is in not realizing that these occured long before there were humans.

Which VITAL organ evolved 1st? Heart? 2nd? Lungs? 3rd Brain? 4th? Pancreas? 5th? Skin? 6th Liver? 7th? U intestine? 8th? Stomach? 9th? L intestine? 10? Kidneys?

See above; integument. Second would be the nervous system. We see both in very, very primitive animals like cnidarians.




Oh, dont forget all of the support systems and the fact that all of these organs are interlocked and ALL must be working together perfectly in tandem or we DIE.

Cnidarians aren't very smart, even if they have primitive nervous systems. So they go on living minus all that other stuff, completely ignorant of the fact that jJIM has decreed that they must be dead.

And guess what?? DEAD THINGS CANT EVOLVE!!

Cnidarians aren't very smart, as you just learned, so they go on doing it, not realizing that you've already ruled that they have to be dead.

Get the idea?

I think everyone gets it now. Maybe you don't. I think maybe even a cnidarian would get it, though.

So go ahead and provide a plausible evolutionary order for mans 10 VITAL organs from 1 through 10..

As you're probably beginning to suspect, they were all evolved long before humans. Your assumption that they all had to be present in living things for any living thing to survive, is of course wrong, as the cnidarians have taught you. If you'd like to learn about how other organs evolved, pick another one, and we'll go through it together. Or if you've got some time to read, try Leonard Radinsky's The Evolution of Vertebrate Design. It's detailed, but written to be accessible to the layman. Well worth your time; it would clear up a lot of misconceptions for you.

So what organ would you like to learn about next?
 
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The Barbarian

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The thing that makes me wonder is when debating these people, and every single one of thier positions is indistinguishable from those of an Atheist and I mean ALL OF THEM!

I notice that you seem to value the opinions of atheists on religion and the relationship of science to God, which does kind of undercut your argument, um?

I have to ask myself why that is. Dont you wonder about that, I mean in the last few posts the guy was arguing with me against things being DESIGNED!! What kind of logic is THAT?

Basic Christian theology. God is eternal, omnipotent,and omniscient. So He has no need to figure anything out. Demoting Him to a mere "designer" brings Him down to the level of a creature.

He's not a creature. You seem to think of Him being just like us, only bigger and more capable. That's not Christian theology. He's no mere "designer"; He is the one and eternal Creator.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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IS ANY IF THIS TRUE? I BELIEVE IT IS!!
THE ATHEIST SAYS IT IS ALL A FAIRYTALE

8 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

6 After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark 7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. 12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.

15 Then God said to Noah, 16 “Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number on it.”

18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on land—came out of the ark, one kind after another.

20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

22 “As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
 
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