Why do you all adore Paul Washer??

[BlackSabb]

Hi everyone. I noticed the thread on Joel Osteen, and the discussion turned to Paul Washer as a contrast to Mr Osteen.

Most of us agree about the essence of televangelism-wealth and health and feel good doctrine. There seems to be general consensus that the gospel of the likes of Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland etc is shallow and distorted.

However, I noticed that the lot of you had nothing but praise and adoration for the sermon of Paul Washer, as a contrast to Joel Osteen. The general consensus is that his gospel is the true gospel of Jesus, and that his message is straight to the point, uncompromising, Godly. Here is a very long youtube video of him:



http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8



Well, you all may be smitten by this man, but I am disgusted!!! He is just as shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen and other American televangeslists-simply in the other direction.

It's obvious from listening to him, that Paul Washer's brand of Christianity is just as woeful and superficial. According to Mr Washer, if you don't dress like the "world", listen to the same music as the "world", watch the same things as the "world" etc, then you're a true Christian. If you go to church regularly, pay your tithes, do all the necessary obligations and don't frequent pubs and clubs, don't listen to secular music, watch secular tv and theatre, read secular books etc, then you're a true follower.

I think that his brand of Christianity is pathetic. It may have impressed many of you, but it didn't impress me. I know from personal experience, that many of the outward ultra conservative Christians (and I do stress-OUTWARD) that I've been involved in, (who don't listen to "worldly" music, watch "worldly tv etc) have been the most rude, unkind, unloving, ungrateful, lying people I've ever seen. I should know. I had one fellow church goer once borrow money from me and refuse to pay me back. But outworldly he was faultless. He didn't engage in any secular activity. Paul Washer would have loved him.

Who does this guy think he's kidding? According to Mr Washer, all you need is a checklist from Jesus to make it to Heaven. I can imagine the day of judgement from Jesus according to Paul Washer. All Jesus has to do is go look around your house, with a notebook, ticking items off:


*Jesus speaking*




"Okay, let's look around John Doe's house"


"DVD collection. No secular movies, all Christian movies.

"Music collection. No rock/secular music. Hymns and classical.

"Clothing. No revealing outfits.

"Prayer and reading the word time. Let's see, John Doe lived for 50 years, and became a Christian at 40. He spent about 1800 hrs of prayer and reading my word for 10 years, that's about 30mins of prayer/reading a day.

"Kitchen cupboads. No alcohol. Excellent.

"Well, I'm done. John Doe, welcome to Heaven".



This is about the extent of Paul Washer's version of Christianity. He doesn't address at all the heart of man, what is in the depths of him. He doesn't even consider what motivates a person, or the circumstances that the individual went through. His brand of Christianity is puritanism. Don't listen to worldly music, don't watch worldly television, don't go to pubs and clubs, go to church, pay your tithe and do your obligatory Bible reading each day.

And now you're a Christian. The worst kind of vile, hateful, hypocritical believer can do all these things that Mr Washer advocates.

I believe this brand of puritanism is just as bad and shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen's. So many Christians and churches are extreme in one direction, and out of balance. You get either all the feel good doctrines of televangelists, or the brimstone Hell fire preachers that esteem puritanism. Neither is correct and as bad as each other.

It has never occurred to Paul Washer that a person can be outwardly faultess, but inwardly unGodly and unrighteous. Seriously, I would prefer the gospel of Joes Osteen over Paul Washer's any day. At least there isn't a huge burden on my shoulder with Mr Osteen's.

A heavy burden that will do nothing to bring me closer to God or change my heart towards God and my fellow man.

 

[Brother Jason]

Never heard of him, for that matter I've never listened to Joel what's his face. If they're on TV they have to earn my trust with solid doctrine, which is something most of them lack!

 

[SoundCard]

Honestly that kind of talk of "all Christians shouldn't do the following..." is a rather bad thing. I mean, yeah, sin is a no no. We're in Christ and we aren't called to sin anymore, but we can still enjoy the things that are in this world if God has given us the chance to do it. Maybe our enjoyment of music will bring us to a music store and inadvertently lead us to meeting someone who by meeting might lead them to Christ?

Basically, in my mind, the things of this world to a believer, are of little consequence in the long run. We should rejoice in the Lord first and foremost, but we still live in this world though we're not of it anymore, so to exclude ourselves from everything seems a bit silly. Though it depends on the faith of the person and their walk with God. If secular music would lead them to sin, then yes, they should avoid it, but if it doesn't cause any stumbling for them, or cause them to make another stumble, then really it's of no consequence - it's just there.

Like Paul said, everything is permissible to me, but not everything is beneficial.

 

[Wade Smith]

This is about the extent of Paul Washer's version of Christianity. He doesn't address at all the heart of man, what is in the depths of him. He doesn't even consider what motivates a person, or the circumstances that the individual went through. His brand of Christianity is puritanism. Don't listen to worldly music, don't watch worldly television, don't go to pubs and clubs, go to church, pay your tithe and do your obligatory Bible reading each day.

And now you're a Christian. The worst kind of vile, hateful, hypocritical believer can do all these things that Mr Washer advocates.

I believe this brand of puritanism is just as bad and shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen's. So many Christians and churches are extreme in one direction, and out of balance. You get either all the feel good doctrines of televangelists, or the brimstone Hell fire preachers that esteem puritanism. Neither is correct and as bad as each other.

1) You obviously have not listened to very many of Paul Washer's sermons.

2) I suggest that you should consider that in many cases all Paul Washer is doing is giving exegesis of scripture, and saying, "Hey, look around, do you bear thorns? (sin)"

If you think Paul Washer is just "equal and opposite" of Joel Osteen or Ken Copeland, you have a clear misunderstanding of what Biblical love really is about. The word "balance" does not even appear in the Bible in the context of "balanced message". Why? Because the preacher preaches what the Bible says, and what God puts on their heart, and whether or not people take offense at that.

There is no such thing as a "balanced" message. Either the preacher is speaking for God based on scripture or revelation, or else he is speaking out of his own mind.

3) Paul Washer does not teach works based salvation. He teaches "faith without works is dead." He teaches that message of Matthew 18, which is this. "a good tree cannot bear corrupt fruit."

You miss the point, as I believe Paul Washer rebukes the "Pharisaical" false christian just as much as he rebukes the hedonist false christian.

If a person is a real Christian they will not do all those things that the unbeliever does. The Bible tells us to "come out from among them and be holy" and in another place "Have nothing to do with them". That means: No clubbing, no drinking, no "hanging out" with unbelievers for any reason other than to preach to them, "Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove(expose/rebuke) them."

That means "no" to the vast majority of movies, television shows, books, video games, and web sites. That means "no" to homosexuality, premarital sex, adultery, dressing like a harlot (which nearly every female in America does, along with many of the men) and so on. That means you shouldn't really even be a "friend" to people who willfully live in those lifestyles. They aren't your buddy or your friend, they are an instrument of satan trying to drag you into the kingdom of darkness. Now you have but one command from the Lord, preach to them, and then if they do not "Repent and believe the Gospel," the scripture says to "have nothing to do with them."

If you are a "Jew inwardly," you WILL be one outwardly. But if you are a "Jew outwardly" it does not necessarily prove you are one inwardly.

But those who claim to be Christians, but have no shame about living like the devil, "Having their conscience seared with a hot iron", they are most certainly false brethren. And yes, there are many false brethren who are "religious" but do not know God in any wise.

 

[Wade Smith]

Honestly that kind of talk of "all Christians shouldn't do the following..." is a rather bad thing. I mean, yeah, sin is a no no. We're in Christ and we aren't called to sin anymore, but we can still enjoy the things that are in this world if God has given us the chance to do it. Maybe our enjoyment of music will bring us to a music store and inadvertently lead us to meeting someone who by meeting might lead them to Christ?

Basically, in my mind, the things of this world to a believer, are of little consequence in the long run. We should rejoice in the Lord first and foremost, but we still live in this world though we're not of it anymore, so to exclude ourselves from everything seems a bit silly. Though it depends on the faith of the person and their walk with God. If secular music would lead them to sin, then yes, they should avoid it, but if it doesn't cause any stumbling for them, or cause them to make another stumble, then really it's of no consequence - it's just there.

Like Paul said, everything is permissible to me, but not everything is beneficial.

That is one of the most misunderstood chapter and passage of scripture in the Bible, but I'm basicly sick of debating it.

Use your brain, and you'll be the smartest person in your family, perhaps even your church.

If "everything" is permissible, the Bible is the biggest waste of paper ever invented, because there was no point in God giving any commandments to anyone.


As for secular music, the vast majority, and I do mean at least 99.9% of it, has no business being listened to by a Christian. All it is about lust and cheating on one another, and premarital/extra-marital affairs, or getting drunk or high, etc. Why any Christian would want to listen to that when the Bible tells you not only not to do those things, but also not to associate with those who do them, is beyond comprehension.

Given 1 Corinthians 5, wherein Paul tells us to excommunicate fornicators from the church, how is it that people want to be "entertained" by songs that are 99.9% fornication and drunkenness, written primarily by fornicators and drunks, about fornicators and drunks, and listened to by primarily fornicators and drunks?

How is it that Christians have no discernment whatsoever, that we want to fill our minds with "entertainment" that is absolutely contrary to the Word of God, and even glorifies that which God hates?

You aren't going to get any true converts to the Lord Jesus through having a favorite secular artist in common, because its all glorifying sin, the flesh, and the devil.

 

[Wade Smith]

*Jesus speaking*

"Okay, let's look around John Doe's house"
"DVD collection. No secular movies, all Christian movies.

"Music collection. No rock/secular music. Hymns and classical.

"Clothing. No revealing outfits.

"Prayer and reading the word time. Let's see, John Doe lived for 50 years, and became a Christian at 40. He spent about 1800 hrs of prayer and reading my word for 10 years, that's about 30mins of prayer/reading a day.

"Kitchen cupboads. No alcohol. Excellent.

"Well, I'm done. John Doe, welcome to Heaven".



This is about the extent of Paul Washer's version of Christianity.

No. You missed the point.

Doing good works does not save you. but if you are saved, you WILL have good works, and you WILL NOT have the evil works.

"Faith without works is dead."

The doctrine that a person can somehow be a Christian, and yet live like the world is one of the biggest lies the devil has ever told. "Ye shall not surely die..." Its the same lie he told Adam and Eve.

Matt. 19:16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I'm going to stop right here and say something. Notice, Jesus didn't even say, "Believe the Gospel" or "Have faith". As much as Paul and Peter preached on the cross, and rightfully so, but Jesus did not even answer with "believe in me" or even "take up the cross" this time. He said, "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

This is a damning condmenation of the doctrine of liberal christianity, i.e. "license to sin".

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

But he was lying, as Jesus already knew.

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Half heartedness.
There is a line from a song I've heard a long time ago, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die," which I think is a line from a bluegrass song, but it happens to be true.

This man did not want to die to self. He wanted to live like the devil and yet go to heaven too, and that is the problem with "churchianity", especially the liberal brand.

 

[SoundCard]

I can't take your arguments seriously because you have the same mind as one who is very legalist. What are Christ's commandments? Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself. The ENTIRE law is surmised in love for God, and Paul DOES flatout tell us that, and Christ tells us flatout as well! The ENTIRE law hangs on those two sentiments: Loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

If you can listen to music and it doesn't detract from that, if you have the capability for it, then it won't matter if it doesn't take away from your love of God! If you can listen to that music and it doesn't prevent you from loving your neighbor as yourself, then it is of no consequence Wade! Stop weighing people down with the law of Moses and live by the Spirit of the living God for once! You have the audacity to lecture me about correctness, when your legalism blinds you to the walk of grace and faith! Pull the plank out of your own eye before tirading me about the speck in mine, thank you!!

 

[FredSmith]

Hi everyone. I noticed the thread on Joel Osteen, and the discussion turned to Paul Washer as a contrast to Mr Osteen.

Most of us agree about the essence of televangelism-wealth and health and feel good doctrine. There seems to be general consensus that the gospel of the likes of Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland etc is shallow and distorted.

However, I noticed that the lot of you had nothing but praise and adoration for the sermon of Paul Washer, as a contrast to Joel Osteen. The general consensus is that his gospel is the true gospel of Jesus, and that his message is straight to the point, uncompromising, Godly. Here is a very long youtube video of him:



http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8



Well, you all may be smitten by this man, but I am disgusted!!! He is just as shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen and other American televangeslists-simply in the other direction.

It's obvious from listening to him, that Paul Washer's brand of Christianity is just as woeful and superficial. According to Mr Washer, if you don't dress like the "world", listen to the same music as the "world", watch the same things as the "world" etc, then you're a true Christian. If you go to church regularly, pay your tithes, do all the necessary obligations and don't frequent pubs and clubs, don't listen to secular music, watch secular tv and theatre, read secular books etc, then you're a true follower.

I think that his brand of Christianity is pathetic. It may have impressed many of you, but it didn't impress me. I know from personal experience, that many of the outward ultra conservative Christians (and I do stress-OUTWARD) that I've been involved in, (who don't listen to "worldly" music, watch "worldly tv etc) have been the most rude, unkind, unloving, ungrateful, lying people I've ever seen. I should know. I had one fellow church goer once borrow money from me and refuse to pay me back. But outworldly he was faultless. He didn't engage in any secular activity. Paul Washer would have loved him.

Who does this guy think he's kidding? According to Mr Washer, all you need is a checklist from Jesus to make it to Heaven. I can imagine the day of judgement from Jesus according to Paul Washer. All Jesus has to do is go look around your house, with a notebook, ticking items off:


*Jesus speaking*




"Okay, let's look around John Doe's house"


"DVD collection. No secular movies, all Christian movies.

"Music collection. No rock/secular music. Hymns and classical.

"Clothing. No revealing outfits.

"Prayer and reading the word time. Let's see, John Doe lived for 50 years, and became a Christian at 40. He spent about 1800 hrs of prayer and reading my word for 10 years, that's about 30mins of prayer/reading a day.

"Kitchen cupboads. No alcohol. Excellent.

"Well, I'm done. John Doe, welcome to Heaven".



This is about the extent of Paul Washer's version of Christianity. He doesn't address at all the heart of man, what is in the depths of him. He doesn't even consider what motivates a person, or the circumstances that the individual went through. His brand of Christianity is puritanism. Don't listen to worldly music, don't watch worldly television, don't go to pubs and clubs, go to church, pay your tithe and do your obligatory Bible reading each day.

And now you're a Christian. The worst kind of vile, hateful, hypocritical believer can do all these things that Mr Washer advocates.

I believe this brand of puritanism is just as bad and shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen's. So many Christians and churches are extreme in one direction, and out of balance. You get either all the feel good doctrines of televangelists, or the brimstone Hell fire preachers that esteem puritanism. Neither is correct and as bad as each other.

It has never occurred to Paul Washer that a person can be outwardly faultess, but inwardly unGodly and unrighteous. Seriously, I would prefer the gospel of Joes Osteen over Paul Washer's any day. At least there isn't a huge burden on my shoulder with Mr Osteen's.

A heavy burden that will do nothing to bring me closer to God or change my heart towards God and my fellow man.

How ironic. You've just validated much of what Washer says.

 

[Wade Smith]

I can't take your arguments seriously because you have the same mind as one who is very legalist. What are Christ's commandments? Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself. The ENTIRE law is surmised in love for God, and Paul DOES flatout tell us that, and Christ tells us flatout as well! The ENTIRE law hangs on those two sentiments: Loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

If you can listen to music and it doesn't detract from that, if you have the capability for it, then it won't matter if it doesn't take away from your love of God! If you can listen to that music and it doesn't prevent you from loving your neighbor as yourself, then it is of no consequence Wade! Stop weighing people down with the law of Moses and live by the Spirit of the living God for once! You have the audacity to lecture me about correctness, when your legalism blinds you to the walk of grace and faith! Pull the plank out of your own eye before tirading me about the speck in mine, thank you!!

I quoted the words of JESUS. Don't play the guilt trip card with me.

JESUS told the man to keep the commandments, and he listed several of them specificly dealing with outward holiness.

Read romans 6-8, and you will have to honestly admit to yourself that there isnothing wrong with the law. If you are not keeping the commandments, you are sinning. Period.

And most of the verses I quoted or paraphrased in the earlier posts on this thread are from PAUL "the apostle of grace".

The problem is, your definition of "grace" is an unbiblical one.

Grace is not a license to sin, nor to "see how close to sinning you can come".

Romans 6


1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Why would a Christian "yield" thier ears and lips to the secular music that glorifies sin, or why "yield" your eyes to the books and movies and television programs that glorify sin?

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Literally, if you are "yielding" your members to these sinful forms of "entertainment" then you are sinning, whether or not you realize it or admit it.

The beam is out of my eye, praise God, and I might add, at a very great cost. So now I do say to you that you should take away the "tiny speck" out of yours.

 

[Wade Smith]

It has never occurred to Paul Washer that a person can be outwardly faultess, but inwardly unGodly and unrighteous. Seriously, I would prefer the gospel of Joes Osteen over Paul Washer's any day. At least there isn't a huge burden on my shoulder with Mr Osteen's.

A heavy burden that will do nothing to bring me closer to God or change my heart towards God and my fellow man.

Hey, I hate to break this to you, but Joel Osteen's message cannot change your heart either. It is pure sorcery disguised as "christianity".

Jesus said, "Deny yourself and take up the Cross daily and follow me."

Which is the opposite of what Joel Osteen teaches. So if you would rather follow Joel Osteen's feel good gospel, friend, you are "walking contrary to Christ" and God said in Leviticus that if you walk contrary to him, he will walk contrary to you.

Friend, living for God IS a burden, and "Puritanism" is a LOT closer to Bible Christianity than anything Joel Osteen or any other of the vast majority of Preachers promote today. In fact, Jesus even told the Disciples to do and observe everything the Pharisees taught, which was primarily what most today would call "legalism," but Jesus told the disciples to obey it!


And that is the problem. LIberal Christian "believe" in God and Jesus and Heaven, and they want to go to heaven, but they don't want to die to self.

You think the Kingdom of God is a democracy, and it isn't. Its a kingdom. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will not simply be your savior. He must be savior and LORD. God is even called "terrible" and "fierce" in the Bible, because even though "God is love," you've got to realize just one thing: it is his universe, and he makes the rules. Period.

Paul even called himself the "slave of Christ," and later the "Prisoner of Christ". We see from Paul a pattern of self denial and self abrogation. "I am crucified with Christ..." and "...I die daily..."

The spiritual truths of these verses is limitless and manifold, but it means two basic things: 1) you trust in Christ to live through you, 2) you no longer do the things your flesh(self) wants to do. "Deny your self and take up the Cross and follow Jesus."

 

[Wade Smith]

I mean seriously, man doesn't need more faith in himself. Man doesn't need more self esteem. Ever since the fall, faith in self and self esteem are all man has!

That is the problem, and it is why Joel Osteen's Gospel is a false Gospel. It is a "christianized" version of the serpents age old lie, "Ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil," He's just using modern language instead.

But Jesus said that apart from him, we can do nothing.

Joel Osteen, and the majority of the Word of Faith movement, do not teach faith in Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, nor true submission to God. In fact they hardly even mention the Cross or even Jesus, but only "God".

They teach faith in self, faith in your ability to quote scripture, faith in your ability to "confess" victory, etc. This is what we call "witchcraft" i.e. trying to impose self will on God and/or his creation, which is contary to the Gospel, i.e. "Deny yourself and take up the cross and follow Jesus."

 

[Wade Smith]

How ironic. You've just validated much of what Washer says.

indeed. One wonders if the OP has ever actually watched any of the videos of Paul Washer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzUUy046iV0

 

[kellyc]

i have only watched a few of paul washer's videos, and the reason i like him (so far) is that he's telling the truth. he's not one of the feel-good type of pastors, but he is right in what he is saying. there is no relativity in truth, it IS black and white.

 

[Wade Smith]

"Prayer and reading the word time. Let's see, John Doe lived for 50 years, and became a Christian at 40. He spent about 1800 hrs of prayer and reading my word for 10 years, that's about 30mins of prayer/reading a day.

1800 hours of prayer and/or bible study in ten years is a small thing when you think about it.

Considering some of the forms of idolatry the Lord has so long dealt with me to get them out of my life, I submit to you that 1800 hours is nothing.

1800/24 = 75 days.

Well, Moses spent 40 days fasting and praying, then came down the mountain, looked around and said a few tings, then goes back up the mountain and fasts and prays for another 40 days.

That's 120 hours more than your hypothetical Christian spent in 10 years...and he did it in 81 days...

There are 3652-3653 days in a ten year span(depending one which combination of leap years.)

So 1800 hours of prayer and bible study would represent just 2 percent of the persons time during those ten years. Think of that. This "believer" found it no problem at all to spend every moment of his life for 40 years in sin, but then he gets "saved" and thinks 2 percent of the next ten years is good enough for Jesus.

30 minutes per day praying or reading the Bible! is not much at all. I submit to you that if people even did that much, then they would have read the entire Bible at least 10 times from cover to cover in those 10 years, and given the degree of Biblical ignorance on this and other Christian forums on the internet, I find it highly unlikely that most any christians bother to read the Bible that much.

I know of some preachers who have DEFINITELY read the Bible from cover to cover at least 50 times in their lives, and at times I should say that I think its a small thing to spend much time in prayer, sometimes several hours at a time.

I should say that those involved in the great revivals in wales and in california in the late 1800's and early 1900's would simply lie on their faces interceding for people hours on end, and had church services 15 times per week: Twice a day on weekdays, and thrice on sunday, not counting "normal" street ministries and tract ministries. These people truly LIVED for Jesus.

Today, we simply claim the name of Jesus, yet go about doing our own thing.

The author that I quote in my signature fasted and prayed more in one week than most modern preachers do in their entire life, and quite possibly more than some entire church bodies do in their entire life.


Not that works save anyone, but if you are saved, as James said, show me your works.

Do you live like the devil?

Or do you, instead, lie on your face hours on end interceding for your neighbor who lives like the devil?

As the brother says in his book, "This comes too high for most christians".

I have not attained to that degree of seperation, but by the Grace of God, I will and hopefully even exceed it, because we need labourers for the harvest, not "vain fellows" who merely think they are living for Jesus.

 

[BlackSabb]

"Deny yourself and take up the cross and follow Jesus."

And what exactly is your "cross?" Because that depends on your interpretation.

It's obvious that your particular interpretation of cross is "don't listen to rock music, don't drink, don't watch secular tv and movies" etc. I'm sure the Puritans and the Amish would love you (except of course they go those couple of steps extra).

Don't define to me what my "cross" is. If you think that taking up your cross is not doing a bunch of secular activites-fine. But that is not my interpetation of taking up your cross.

My defintion of taking up your cross is loving the unloveable, forgiving those who harm me, showing kindness and unpartiality to all, even those who are not loving etc. I'm not going to live by your interpretations of taking up your cross, and I don't expect you to live by mine.

I personally think that your cross that you take up is a shallow one-don't do this, don't do that. I believe the real cross that Jesus talks about is doing things much harder-showing love to all even those who harm us and our enemies.

 

[Wade Smith]

And what exactly is your "cross?" Because that depends on your interpretation.

It's obvious that your particular interpretation of cross is "don't listen to rock music, don't drink, don't watch secular tv and movies" etc. I'm sure the Puritans and the Amish would love you (except of course they go those couple of steps extra).

Don't define to me what my "cross" is. If you think that taking up your cross is not doing a bunch of secular activites-fine. But that is not my interpetation of taking up your cross.

My defintion of taking up your cross is loving the unloveable, forgiving those who harm me, showing kindness and unpartiality to all, even those who are not loving etc. I'm not going to live by your interpretations of taking up your cross, and I don't expect you to live by mine.

I personally think that your cross that you take up is a shallow one-don't do this, don't do that. I believe the real cross that Jesus talks about is doing things much harder-showing love to all even those who harm us and our enemies.

You fail to realize something.

Paul Washer and myself teach everything you said in the bolded part, you jsut don't seem to see it or realize it for some reason.

Paul Washer is a missionary and he goes places most people on this forum probably wouldn't take a step.

As for myself, I grew up preaching on the streets with my parents, and now God has me back doing much the same thing.

But your version of the cross is flawed, because it is not complete. You cannot seperate the lion of Judah from the lamb of God. He is one and the same.

He cannot merely be your savior. He MUST be both Savior and Lord.

1 John 2


1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Which commandment? Well, as the young man who spoke to Jesus found out, the answer is "all of the commandments". And this would include Paul's teachings in the New Testament about modesty and holiness and seperation.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.



The problem with you is that you think "seperation" somehow means we don't love anybody. That couldn't be farther from the truth. The guy who I have quoted in my signature, for example, made it a key point to do his tract ministries in the early 1900's in brothels and saloons. "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Imagine that, the preacher went to the prostitution houses to preach to people and hand out tracts. Today if somebody did that, his congregation would kick him out of the church.


Oh, but everyone is "unlovable". Seperation and prayer are tools God uses to show you just how "unlovable" you really are. This is taste of where God wants to bring you.

When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ says repent, He means that the whole life of believers on earth should be a constant and perpetual repentance. Repentance and sorrow-i.e., true repentance--endure as long as a man is displeased with himself. The desire of self-justification is the cause of all the distresses of the heart. - Martin Luther

God is looking for workers, channels, worms of the dust. Remember, He must have worms. Jesus' life was pressed out in prayer at every pore. This kind comes too high for most people. But may this be our Lord's "Last Call"? - Frank Bartleman.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

But you're being horribly misguided, Wade, in saying we must not be friends with unbelievers. That not only is completely the antithesis of love, it is also pretentious and arrogant to no end. Who are we, in any way, shape, or form, able to say we are better than others? We still sin, and will till we are finally free from this flesh and this earth, and Paul himself laments about. You are bringing back the same old heresy that we see is fought about in Acts and which Paul rebukes Peter about; though at that time "believers" were "Jews" and "gentiles" were the "unbelievers". Now, we are called to go to the unbelievers, live with them, and minister to them directly, and more importantly, but living right and letting God's power shine through. If you truly are a man of God, you'll know exactly what I mean, as you'll have seen that just befriending and being around an unbeliever can change their life radically and rapidly when God is working through you.

Let us remember a few verses,

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (NIV) 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

This pretty clearly speaks against your view of things, Wade. How can you be all things to all people to win them to Christ if you will not even associate with them because they are unbelievers? Preaching is not becoming like them at all people. Throwing off all secularness because it's secular (who defines that anyways? That bible really doesn't!) is not becoming all things to all people. The only way to become all things to all people is to be in the world, but not of it, to be like said people, but not the same as. Do you understand?

For instance, for those who listen to rock and roll, you listen to rock that isn't overly offensive so you can approach those who listen to horribly offensive rock. This way, not only do you demonstrate to them that God is reaching them where they are, but that they don't need their overly offensive music - as there you are listening to rock that isn't offensive and enjoying it just the same.
Afterall, remember:

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Our message is /reconciliation/. Not alienation. How can we reconcile people to God if we don't first reconcile them to ourselves? Arrogance, "holier than thou" attitudes only alienate people, from you AND God. And yes, throwing away all secular culture is arrogant - because even though it isn't focused on God, that doesn't make it sinful. Sin is very specific, culture is not, and your level of faith determines a lot of this.
So then:

1st John 3:18-25 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

God's command, the command that pleases Him, is to believe in the name of Jesus, and to love one another. That is the command we live under - that's why it's the "new covenant" and the new "law of the Spirit", totally separate and different from the law of the letter, Moses, written law, whatever else you want to call it as we see:

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

and:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

and:

Romans 3:22-24, 28 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Our salvation is assured in Christ alone, belief or unbelief are the /only/ factors determining your eternal fate:

1st John 5:10-12 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Eternal life is in the Son only, not in our works, in any way, shape, nor form. Works can not save you, if you do not believe in the Son, you are doomed. Works can not condemn you if you do believe in the Son, as that belief was all that was needed for salvation, as it is written Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

However, our works will be judged serparately, apart from our salvation, and there are rewards to gain or lose based on them:

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

This is by no means a mystery, and makes perfect /logical/ sense with /everything/ that's in the bible and we know of God. Nothing is left out or hanging when you actually read what's in the word. That is why Paul sums it all like this:

Romans 14:1-8 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

I'm sorry, Wade, but according to the Word of God, your faith is weak, very weak, because you feel the need to cast off all secularness and also all unbelievers from your life. An unfortuantely misguided way to live in as far as I see it, based on the Word, not only harmful to the gospel, but to yourself and others and not edifying to the Lord in any way.

We are a people apart because we belong to God. Living in the world does not mean sinning, in the least. We should avoid sin (for no other reason than because we love Christ), but not abandon the world (which God so loved He gave his only egotten Son...). That's why we are its salt, and why we are ministers. Ministering does not mean preaching only! It means walking besides, and you cannot walk besides if you abandon people on this false pretense of holiness when God and God alone is holy. Our holiness and righteousness is only through Christ, not of ourselves, and NOT by our works. Afterall:

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Our righteousness is by Christ, as all these verses very plainly, even one by itself, breaks down this view that's got you, completely.

Therefore, we must remember and do this:

Romans 13:8-10 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Ephesians 4:2-3 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

1st John 4:7-8 7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

None of this, not one iota, can be done by denying the unbeliever friendship, by only preaching, for preaching is not by itself love. Love is helping those in need, standing besides those that hurt, being there as they sin to show them the better way, and that all requires life long and close relationships. All of this too, so that they may be won to Christ! Remember what love is, and you'll see, Wade, that this false view (according to the Word), that grips you, and which is proud and boastful by its very nature, is in no way loving, but completely against God:

1st Corinthians 13:1-13 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

 

[SoundCard]

It must be lonely on your pedistal, Wade. Though God reproves and corrects us, and sets our crooked paths straight sure enough, even He most High does not condemn us, though you seem to have ample supply of that don't you? So by what revelation did you suddenly come to know that this interpretation is wrong? Are you joyous because life got easier because you turned your back on those friends instead of being patient?

Not once do we ever say "We're not condemned anymore, let's sin it up!"
Why do you people always seem to interpret it when we say we're not under the law anymore, or that we are free in Christ, that automatically you assume we're saying we can sin all we like? It's not right, and it never was nor will be! But just because YOU do not approve of the things you post about, far be it from you to be the better man to judge all of us as in the wrong! Step back from your arrogance already and let God do the work you seem so insistent on shoving down our throats if you believe yourself to be so correct! Or will you just step away from us as well because you think we're being worldly because we're not willing to run away from unbelievers in hopes that they might be saved? Go hide in your corner Wade, maybe they can see you staring at your shadow and see Christ in that box you live in!

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Truth of scripture? You're the one ignoring scripture, Wade, flat out. Did you not see where in 1st John 3:18-25 it expressly says what the command we are to keep is, that is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and love one another? Did you not see that? Nothing else is stated, just that. Furthermore:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Galatians 3:23-25 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Philippians 3:8-9 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 2:19-21 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

What do all these verses have in common, Wade? That salvation, righteousness, is only through belief, not through works - otherwise Christ died for nothing. Can you get any clearer than Ephesians, than Galatians, than the bible in total? You are adding and making stuff up. Never is it written that salvation is through works, NEVER. Faith without works is dead, but that doesn't mean you are going to hell to have dead faith, does it? It doesn't say that, now does it? Dead faith will rob you of God's power in your life, and you'll have to deal with the consequences your actions bring. But, I believe that if one has faith in Christ, Christ through them will do deeds, no matter that person's intent, as I have seen many times play out through other people. Christ will do the work if one has faith, so the whole issue is moot.

Let's check out what Jesus says!

John 3:16-18 "16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:32-40 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 11:25-26 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Wow, and Jesus too says salvation is through belief in Him, that it is the Father's will that that is how you are saved and not by works, that's why He came in the first place! You are calling Christ himself a liar, my friend. If you won't believe in Him, then you have to follow the law perfectly like He did, you must be even more perfect than the pharisees, something not you nor anyone else can do - but only Christ Himself, only Him. Your righteous deeds are nothing but filthy rags to God, if you do them outside of Christ, as Isaiah clearly states.

So, unless you think you are equal to Christ, God Himself, I'm afraid you're screwed if you try to live by the law, as the Word plainly states : ).

Acts 15:10-11 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

That seems to be what you are doing, testing God.

Acts 13:38-39 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Nope, can't get clearer than that. Sorry, Wade, but I live only by the scriptures, and they are utterly, completely, and absolutely clear on this matter.

 

[Wade Smith]

It must be lonely on your pedistal, Wade. Though God reproves and corrects us, and sets our crooked paths straight sure enough, even He most High does not condemn us, though you seem to have ample supply of that don't you? So by what revelation did you suddenly come to know that this interpretation is wrong? Are you joyous because life got easier because you turned your back on those friends instead of being patient?

Not once do we ever say "We're not condemned anymore, let's sin it up!"
Why do you people always seem to interpret it when we say we're not under the law anymore, or that we are free in Christ, that automatically you assume we're saying we can sin all we like? It's not right, and it never was nor will be! But just because YOU do not approve of the things you post about, far be it from you to be the better man to judge all of us as in the wrong! Step back from your arrogance already and let God do the work you seem so insistent on shoving down our throats if you believe yourself to be so correct! Or will you just step away from us as well because you think we're being worldly because we're not willing to run away from unbelievers in hopes that they might be saved? Go hide in your corner Wade, maybe they can see you staring at your shadow and see Christ in that box you live in!

You don't know anything about me. MY "friends" were agents of the devil, plain and simple. All they ever wanted to do or talk about were things that are sinful and so they were not really "friends" at all.

The seeker sensitive church does not save anybody. It is merely entertaining goats.

I never said that anyone should abandon sinners, you simply "read that into" my post, just as you read in your false doctrine of "license to sin" into the scriptures.

But I presented scriptures which clearly say exactly what I said earlier, and you still find fault with me.

Like Paul Washer said, "Young man, I didn't interpret the text, I read it...."

Here, I'll quote it again.


14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Thus, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a thing be established."

Paul is one, and John is two, and the Holy Spirit is three.