Why Do Wiccans Hate Christians?

Smilin · Jan 2, 2004

Arikay said:
Ugh, this thread started out so good, with what appeared to be questions. Now it has turned into people painting other people with their opinions.

What happend to the questions and what appeared to be a want to learn, instead of a want to condemn and chest beat?

People?...no person. One person.

Smilin · Jan 2, 2004

Natro said:
When will people get it through there heads that all religions are based upon one thing and one thing alone. Faith.

Not exactly true. Mine is based largely upon my personal life experiences.
It just 'fit'. Religion is also works, deeds, and experiences.

Godschild · Jan 2, 2004

Natro said:
When will people get it through there heads that all religions are based upon one thing and one thing alone. Faith.

I know that it is based on faith, but I just don't like the fact that there are people who are very set against just saying that over and over that christianity alone has no proof and stuff, when, even if it is based on faith, it does have evidence. (Don't ask me to bring up that evidence yet. I'm not that advanced in my faith yet)

Smilin · Jan 2, 2004

SoulSearching said:
Don't worry it won't be embarrassing to me. You forget I know you well. BTW I have not told you what you believe. It's straight from your so called testimony you gave out in the Why Do Christians Hate Wicca/Witches thread, Remember???

Perhaps look at some of the quotes I gathered and see if you can figure out why your so angry. I would tell you about some of the supernatural things the Lord has done in my life if I thought it would help you but I don't think it will. You would probably find fault with that to.

I Still Love You In Jesus Christ!
God Bless!
SoulSearching

SS is your main purpose in this discussion to harrass Havoc and everyone
else who is different from you? Are you interested in other religions?
You seem to be on a mission to berate everyone you look down upon.

Rae · Jan 3, 2004

Do you, Havoc or any of the others try to disprove other beliefs/religions. Do you lump every Christian in the burning or killing category???

No and no. I can't "disprove" other religions. I can show that some beliefs of other religions are harmful, certainly, and I can give my opinion of them as a non-believer in that religion. I do so regularly. Why not?

I never can get wiccans to admit that every path is divine according to their own belief.

Not every path is Divine. Many paths lead people into hatred, bigotry, intolerance, etc. Would you say such a path is Divine? Neither would I. I would say most fundamentalisms fall under such a category...leading them into arrogance, hatred, and lies against anything different from themselves. They are not Divine. Just one example.

Ugh, this thread started out so good, with what appeared to be questions. Now it has turned into people painting other people with their opinions.

Indeed. Someone appears to have an agenda to bash Pagans under the guise of wanting to know more about us. Too bad. I wish people would honestly seek, not seek in order to destroy.

Originally Posted by: Rae

For many of us, the Bible is the words of fallible humans only. We find "God" elsewhere
Any non-biased reader would see the above as my opinion only. I did not bash Christians (e.g. "you're so stupid to believe the Bible" was not in there...and don't you dare clip this quote to make it look like I said this, either!), try to convert anyone to my point of view, or anything else. Thanks for showing how balanced and fair I am in my comments.

Obvious attempt at slander and libel. Disgusting, SoulSearcher. Disgusting. Shame on you.

Rae · Jan 3, 2004

christianity alone has no proof

No. All religions have no objective proof of their truth. That's why we have faith. We non-Christians in this thread simply do not claim objective proof for ours and question you when you claim it for yours.

Arthur Dietrich · Jan 3, 2004

Godschild said:
In my opinion, it's amazing how some wiccans/pagans are so quick to say that christianity is false in ALL aspects, but I have YET to see anyone give any proof that a Goddess exists.

I'm very glad you said 'some'...though I highly doubt they think it is false in ALL respects. We must associate with different Wiccans.

The ones I know (including myself) having nothing against Christianity.

I think any pagan that posts something in disagreement or even against Christianity isn't doing so BECAUSE they are a Wiccan/Pagan. I'd guess the reasons where out of pure interest/curiousity and personal opinion. We do not all share the same mind.

Arthur Dietrich · Jan 3, 2004

SoulSearching said:
Is it true that wicca is a make it up as you go religion???

God Bless!
SoulSearching

Nope. This is a common misconception though. I'd be happy to offer you some reading material, if you like.

Arthur Dietrich · Jan 3, 2004

Oh. As for paths. Ok..let's take this literally. I do agree religion is mostly based on faith. I've never thought of a 'path' as a road or something marked in the forest. I think of it as walking through a wild forest (no marked paths), but knowing you are being lead the right way and are not lost.

Does that make any sense XP ?

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
SoulSearching:
I simply stated that the three main religions of the world: Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam were born of Abraham.

Now kindly post my COMPLETE response and don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't make a statement, I posed a question.

As you wish:

Page 32: Thread - Why Do Christians Hate Wicca(Witchcraft)?

Smilin said:
And that God is the same God of Islam, and Judaism;
Two other major religions of the world. Judaism, Islam,
and Christianity all arose from Abraham. Three different
religions, the same God, three different theologies.

Page 36: (Same Thread)

Smilin said:
Your God of the Bible, the God of Abraham,
the same God of the three predominant religions
of the world: Judaism, Islam, & Christianity...

How can the God of Abraham, the birth of three
religions with conflicting teachings and beliefs
be the same God?

Your statement came before your question on page 32. I did not put words into your mouth. I accidentally left them out (by back spacing). Again I apologize!

God Bless!
SoulSearching

Geoff_Conn · Jan 3, 2004

Arthur Dietrich said:
I'm very glad you said 'some'...though I highly doubt they think it is false in ALL respects. We must associate with different Wiccans.

The ones I know (including myself) having nothing against Christianity.

I think any pagan that posts something in disagreement or even against Christianity isn't doing so BECAUSE they are a Wiccan/Pagan. I'd guess the reasons where out of pure interest/curiousity and personal opinion. We do not all share the same mind.

I remember Wiccans were interviewed by CBN. They did'nt bash christians. One believed that Christ was a way to God, not the only way.

stubbornkelly · Jan 3, 2004

I don't know any pagans who hate Christians. I know that some attitudes of some Christians are hated, and some actions, but not the people themselves. I did have to laugh at one guy in college who said that as long as Christians didn't try to tell him about Jesus, he didn't care one way or another. I won't be able to express it well here, but his logic just didn't work. He said they were free to practice their religion, as long as they didn't tell him about it, which is kinda saying they weren't free to practice their religion, since a purdy big part of it is telling other people about Jesus, no? But there's a good way and a bad way to do that.

IMO, once someone has told you they're not interested in being a follower of Christ, you need to back off. Doesn't mean you can't ever mention it, or that it can't be a topic of discussion, just that some of the angry arguing I hear (IRL - I don't tread on those forums around here) is fruitless, and that's what leads to this idea that pagans hate Christians -- some people can't hear the difference between "I really hate that you, Christian, can't just let me, pagan, be" and "I really hate you because you're Christian." It's very frustrating to the pagans I know to only ever hear from Christians that they're evil. It's nice to have someone care about you and the state of your soul, but it doesn't always have to be the topic of conversation, and honestly, sometimes I do wonder whether some Christians care about the person or just getting a notch.

When I see the back and forth stuff IRL, it usually consists of the Christian going on and on about how the pagan is going to hell and that they need to change their evil ways and the pagan just nodding and smiling. Most of the hostility I see IRL is on the part of the Christians, and then they just say, "I care so much about you!" Caring about people involves more than telling them how to save themselves, but also taking an interest in them. That's where the claims of hypocrisy come from - getting yelled at and that's about it.

In school, there were only a few Christians I knew (and it was a small school - I knew just about everyone) who actually walked the walk when it came to showing how they cared for the lost. They seemed to forget that - in addition to the importance being a light for the Lord - most people aren't going to believe the care is real when it only comes in the form of telling others how ****** they are. I know, and most inteligent people know, if they think about it, that Christians are showing they care by even bothering to tell someone about their faith -- if they didn't care, why would they work so hard to help people save themselves? -- but it doesn't always come off that way, and it's important to put yourself in the other person's shoes for at least a minute. What would it take for you to turn from your faith? What would you respond well to?

Anyway, I don't see "Christian bashing." I do see "attitudes-and-techniques-of-some-Christians bashing." And although I think it could be more constructive, I don't think it's inappropriate to point out the negativity of some of those attitudes and techniques some Christians have and use.

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
Yes, you're rather new here. Go back to my first posts. You'll find that
I debated from the standpoint of a Christian.

I respect all religions/non-religions. You'll find that made me very unpopular
when I was considered Christian and dared commune with atheists, pagans,
Jews, Wiccans, etc, etc...
I've never tried to disprove a religion and you will see this if you journey
through my posts. I do debate, with evidence, against false claims
made by anyone (regardless of their spirituality). The best example
is when one poster claimed the Great Pyramid was created.

My spirituality teaches we are all the same brothers and sisters of the
Creator...period. By my creed, I am forbidden to cause harm to
any living thing without just cause.... i.e. I'd never shoot a deer unless
I was hungry and the need to do so. Addittionally, I would never
intentionally insult, hurt, or threaton anyone here or in real life
unless self-preservation was needed. My way is a peaceful way.
My debating style does get intense at times, but that is just one
facet of my entire being. When I realize I have offended someone,
I am not hesitant to apologize.

As far as labels go, I don't lump every Christian into any category. I
have very close friends here, they just happen to be Christian.

Do I analyze my faults, quirks, and biases? Yes, daily. I do fall short,
however I am constantly working on myself mentally, physically and
spiritually.

I like your above post Smilin. It's nice to met you! I hope my boldness does not offend you.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
Yes, you're rather new here. Go back to my first posts. You'll find that
I debated from the standpoint of a Christian.

I respect all religions/non-religions. You'll find that made me very unpopular
when I was considered Christian and dared commune with atheists, pagans,
Jews, Wiccans, etc, etc...
I've never tried to disprove a religion and you will see this if you journey
through my posts. I do debate, with evidence, against false claims
made by anyone (regardless of their spirituality). The best example
is when one poster claimed the Great Pyramid was created.

My spirituality teaches we are all the same brothers and sisters of the
Creator...period. By my creed, I am forbidden to cause harm to
any living thing without just cause.... i.e. I'd never shoot a deer unless
I was hungry and the need to do so. Addittionally, I would never
intentionally insult, hurt, or threaton anyone here or in real life
unless self-preservation was needed. My way is a peaceful way.
My debating style does get intense at times, but that is just one
facet of my entire being. When I realize I have offended someone,
I am not hesitant to apologize.

As far as labels go, I don't lump every Christian into any category. I
have very close friends here, they just happen to be Christian.

Do I analyze my faults, quirks, and biases? Yes, daily. I do fall short,
however I am constantly working on myself mentally, physically and
spiritually.

Smilin, I like your above post. It's nice to met you! I hope my boldness, questions or comments has not offended you.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
I know who I am now, where I came from, and am at peace.
Yes, I'm proud of my geneology and won't apologize to anyone for it.
And, FWIW, we won't be ruled again by any race or religion.

And if you insenuate that my heritage rules me, then that's just
your ignorance.

I listen to the Earth and the Wind, for they speak to me.

I find all religions and cultures interesting.

Smilin,

That's your right to be proud of your geneology but mine does not rule me. I can't allow it to because my Indian heritage would probably turn on my English heritage and it would be all out war .

My Grandmother is not proud of her Indian heritage. She was made fun of by other kids. They called her the little squaw so she does not talk much about her heritage.

Just so you know up front my Faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour is the most important ruling factor in my life. I hold him above everything that I love here on earth including my family and they I would die for.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
People?...no person. One person.

Hmmm let me guess, could it be me . What a difference it makes when you ask the same question of the opposite side.

Wiccans believe in the DIVINE path, therefore let my path be just that. After all do you really need our stamp of approval or a pat on the back??? Are wiccans looking for some type of "Christian" insurance???

As a Christian I believe the word of God and you'll not sway me. I don't want to hear which Bible version or all that other lame stuff.

Some want proof that my God is real, something they can see or touch. I feel him and I know he is real but feelings have No effect on those seeking visible proof.

I can tell you that he confirms himself among his children. Here's an example: I was getting ready for Church and I had the TV on listening to the news. That tends to make me late . All of a sudden my TV went pop and turned black. I knew the Lord wanted me at Church asap. Our Sunday school teacher had been studying something that was not Biblically sound and it spilled over into our lesson. I had to tell what a dangerous effect that doctrine could have on Christians if it was taught, preached, or even told.

Our Pastor had NO ideal what had happen since I was a little late . During his message he said "the Lord can even make your TV go black".

This may not seem like much to y'all but like I said he does confirm and there's so much more. I have cast some of my pearls before to those who only wanted to ridicule. Therefore I have to be careful in this area.

You see we can't save anyone only Jesus Christ can. I'm nothing without him. I don't know why I was lead to write this because I know I have nothing to prove to anyone because my faith is enough.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Smilin said:
SS is your main purpose in this discussion to harrass Havoc and everyone
else who is different from you? Are you interested in other religions?
You seem to be on a mission to berate everyone you look down upon.

Smilin,

Just when I thought we were making some progress. You went and threw unfounded insults. I know Havoc and I am not here to harrass him or anyone else. I am not here berate or look down on anyone. That's a shame since you don't even know me.

I'll admit that Havoc and I had some strong debates on 123Christian but through it all I could still tell him that I love him and mean it. I don't hate or have anyone that I would consider a enemy.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Rae said:
No and no. I can't "disprove" other religions. I can show that some beliefs of other religions are harmful, certainly, and I can give my opinion of them as a non-believer in that religion. I do so regularly. Why not?

Hello Rae, Why Not? Because you doing exactly what many wiccans accuse Christians of doing.

Not every path is Divine. Many paths lead people into hatred, bigotry, intolerance, etc. Would you say such a path is Divine? Neither would I. I would say most fundamentalisms fall under such a category...leading them into arrogance, hatred, and lies against anything different from themselves. They are not Divine. Just one example.

From a Christian belief lies would be consider a sin but since wiccans and sin don't mix, how can that be your call??? By who's authority do you decide who's path is divine or harmful??? I don't understand why some wiccans are so judgmental. Is it only divine if you agree with it???

Paths being divine is a wiccan belief, not my belief as a Christian. Here is how it was explained to me in Jan. of 2003 by Havoc: Do you agree with his definition???

Havoc
123 Christian Veteran

Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 807

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:29 pm Post subject:

Of course I'm not ashamed of my beliefs. I'm not sure you actually asked me to explain more than the answers I have given.

I don't belief your God exists, at least not in the way the majority of Christians view him, so whether I think Christianity is better than my faith or not is moot. It is better for me. My faith teaches that all paths lead to the Divine so whether you believe as I do or not is not relevant to me. My faith also does not proseletyse, so I won't try to convince you to become a Witch. I am bound to teach those who sincerely want to become Witches, but only if they seek what they already truly desire.
I won't challenge another persons beliefs since no religion has more substantive proof than any other. I will challenge anyone who claims to have the absolute truth but cannot back that claim up with proof

Indeed. Someone appears to have an agenda to bash Pagans under the guise of wanting to know more about us. Too bad. I wish people would honestly seek, not seek in order to destroy.

Havoc
123 Christian Veteran

Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 807

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:43 pm Post subject:

I believe I did answer his questions, do you require more clarification?

I don't question that you believe in your God, I question the oft used (or misused) claim that the Christian God is "absolute truth". Such a claim cannot reasonably be made without provideing substantive evidence, especially if that claim exludes the possibility of my faith being valid. I have never challenged anyone who says, "this is what I believe". I do challenge anyone who claims to have absolute truth, or who claims other religions are false.

I can assure you that in the 14 years I've been a Witch I certainly have thought about that statement. I believe every soul will ultimately reach the same destination. Those who make bad choices or choose to do harm will take a longer path and will not reach the end until they have learned. Those who make good choices and choose to heal will get to their destination sooner.

Why wouldn't Satanism lead eventually to the Divine. Satanists don't hurt anyone (at least not more than any other group). They simply believe differently than you. In their case they are in opposition to your beliefs but that's not harmful in and of itself.

Quote:My proof is his word, creation, my life, and I feel his spirit in my soul.That's all well and fine but it is certainly not unique. I would say the same things of my Gods and Goddesses. As would most religions that have a Diety/ies. Your "proof" is meaningles to anyone but yourself, it is certaainly not the basis of a reasonable claim of "truth".

With the second quote please explain to me how wiccans can challenge anyones choices good or bad??? The way I read/understand the above, paths do NOT have to be just about religious choices. Does this mean if someone choice is to kill/murder, rape, steal and so forth that those paths are also divine???

Originally Posted by: Rae

For many of us, the Bible is the words of fallible humans only. We find "God" elsewhere
Any non-biased reader would see the above as my opinion only. I did not bash Christians (e.g. "you're so stupid to believe the Bible" was not in there...and don't you dare clip this quote to make it look like I said this, either!), try to convert anyone to my point of view, or anything else. Thanks for showing how balanced and fair I am in my comments.

Obvious attempt at slander and libel. Disgusting, SoulSearcher. Disgusting. Shame on you.

Would you find it offensive if I was to say that wicca is a belief/religion founded by fallible humans only. With NO written proof and very few standards/go bys that are found in the Bible???

If you have a problem with what you said I suggest you talk to Nathan and the others who wanted proof/links. As far as the convert issue that was a challenge which was also set forth by Nathan, which was met. So please don't do as Nathan did by adding more questions to my original post. I never said anything about converting. That was truly putting words into my mouth/post and that is a shame.

As far as any attempt on my part to slander and libel anyone that's just you way of getting your digs in and getting around breaking rule #1.

Rae I could have mentioned page 54 remember this "heartless faith like yours" a comment made by you concerning Christianity???

I thought someone had said something to you that brought that comment on so I left it out. Surely you don't think that 2 wrongs make a right.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

Arthur Dietrich said:
Nope. This is a common misconception though. I'd be happy to offer you some reading material, if you like.

Thanks Arthur! You the 1st sense of wiccan kindness that I've discern on this thread I have studied and read a lot about wicca during my many debates with Havoc but even that's not enough. The debate then turns into from where and from whom.

Sure I would like to read the material you have to offer.

There's a Wicca site I ran across, can you please take a look at it and give me your thoughts/opinion concerning it's contents??? Do you agree or disagree??? Thanks in advance!

http://wicca.timerift.net/index.html

God Bless!
SoulSearching

SoulSearching · Jan 3, 2004

I have been accused of coming here to harass Havoc. I joined this site on Oct. 5, 2003. I knew that Havoc was a member before I decided to join. If my sole purpose was to harass Havoc I would have done so when I 1st joined.

I joined this site because I go where the Lord leads me. I am what most call a Charismatic Christian. I believe in the spiritual gifts that are spoke of in the Bible. I do not believe in slain in the spirit or many forms of the rapture. In short I don't believe in the opinion/doctrines of men that are not Biblically sound or confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

The Lord has me to deal in truth with boldness by discerning. This tends to make some Christians who are swayed easy by the opinions/beliefs/doctrines of men upset with me which is what happened when I 1st joined this forum. After debating slain in the spirit with other Christians. (In Which some "Christians" can be stubborn, easy to anger and not always truthful). He lead me away from the forums for a while. Which I truly needed a break.

Some of my fellow Christians can not grasp that satan does not have to deny the Gospel, all he has to do is pervert it by adding to or taking away. Therefore they believe a distorted version to be bold they believe a lie.

One of the members here sent me a Christmas greeting so I thought I would come back and do some reading and this area is where I was lead.

For the final proof that harassment was never my intention: I deleted my original post but here's a return reply from a 123Christian member asking their advise concerning Havoc. This was on Jul. 28, 2003. I left the members name out for their privacy.

To:Justice
Posted:Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:49 pmSubject:Re: Havoc

Justice, what you said was from the heart. Before I left, Havoc and I bumped heads a few times. I personally would not PM Havoc. However what I have learned from my past on here, is to write what you want to say; then re-read it again, and edited anything you feel that should be added or subtracted. I don't think Havoc stoped posting here because of your post. I don't believe that at all. I've personally attacked him on many things and yet Havoc was still posting. I would not let this brother you. First of all what you said was infact the truth, meaning that he does sometimes cause Christians to struggle. This is not something new. You know that as well as I do. Secondly the Bible does warn us as Christians not to entangle ourselves with unbelievers. As one who has had many conversations with Havoc, I personally know he's not a born again Christian. So with this in mind I would let it be.. Let it rest where it lies.. (end of pm)

My last post towards Havoc on 123Christian was something about leaving us to our divine path. I was concern that he thought I was asking him to leave the forum which I wasn't. So I sent out a few pms asking for advise.

Perhaps the above all the above has helped in explaining things better.

I hope and pray that I've not over looked any comments, question, accusations or failed to address any insults. Back to the original topic/question. I think that point has been proven.

God Bless!
SoulSearching

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