Why do we pray?

[asherahSamaria]

When I say God works in mysterious ways, I do not just mean that I can't give you an answer.

For only one example > I might pray about if God wants me to have a wife. Then, instead of getting a wife, I get more and more Jesus lady friends who all help me to find out how to love. This is not getting a wife for what I want, maybe, but getting much better and for what God wants, since He cares about us better than we care about our own selves. So, He works "mysteriously", meaning we in our nature are not able to see the better good He is doing for us, but at some point it can be revealed, after we have been corrected so we can see and appreciate what He is doing for us. God's working in mysterious ways includes how it works out for our good which better than what we have been thinking about and better than for a while we were able to see.

And this is a kind of thing which a limited prayer statistical study would not be able to measure very well. God has answered my prayer about if I should have a wife, but discovering all my lady friends has taken "a while", and they have been doing me good for decades. And now I have had a lady who has been better than a wife I might have hoped for; we have stayed with each other about two and a half years, though we have not married and we have been moral. There was no way I saw this coming > it was a mystery which God has been preparing until He brought it into the open.

We both needed a lot of correction to prepare us so we would be able to stay with each other. So, while God was correcting us, He was working in mysterious ways toward what we did not see coming. And it is His answer to my praying - - praying likely for longer than a research study might have for a study period.

So, this would be just one sample-example, of my experience.

And this is a kind of thing which a limited prayer statistical study - you're right there - if the study was to find out "did a prayer receive results" but the participant was happy with some other result other than getting what they initially wanted then that would be a fail under the strict test. Of course that's a shifting of the goalposts and would require an initial unfalsifiable hypothesis.

I suspect the "hit rate" for that is pretty similar to that of wishful thinking too though.

 

[SkyWriting]

I was thinking about the above study that seems to show that prayer had no effect - in a controlled experiment. They were praying for other peoples recovery - not their own.

In my experience, praying for the benefit of others works because it is easier
to exclude personal benefit from the event. A controlled experiment would
not have that opportunity.

If the people in the study were not aware of the study, then there may be
the ability to separate out any personal affects. But I'm not sure even that
would be possible.

 

[asherahSamaria]

In my experience, praying for the benefit of others works because it is easier
to exclude personal benefit from the event. A controlled experiment would
not have that opportunity.

If the people in the study were not aware of the study, then there may be
the ability to separate out any personal affects. But I'm not sure even that
would be possible.

Apparently that was taken into account and those that knew they were being prayed for fared worse than the other groups. Likely this was down to some reverse placebo effect where they thought "I must be really ill".

 

[com7fy8]

Among Christians, there is difference about what prayer is for. There are people who are into "name it and claim it", more than others.

And ones of us understand that specific target prayer can get different results. Because, we understand, God evaluates how each of us is, what He knows is best for each of us, and our motives for our specific prayers, and His motives for each person in His overall plan. So, doing a scientific study with controls and keeping track of all factors "might" not be possible

Also, He knows each person who is prayed for. There are people, for one kind of example, who have lived selfish and self-abusing lives, causing their medical problems and injuries. They need deep correction so they, if healed, will not just continue to hurt themselves and will not be free to hurt others. So, our prayer might first be for their deep healing so they are with God.

It says, "God resists the proud," in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. If someone is sick, this can be "God working in mysterious ways" to slow the person down so he or she is not hurting oneself in ways much more damaging and deadly than the sickness and/or so the person does not go on to hurt others or keep hurting them. There are things happening which are included in God's resistance to evil and harmful people so they don't get into the much worse trouble that they could, plus so they do not hurt others more than they have. If they won't listen, circumstance can be actions speaking louder than words.

So, prayer for convenient healing "might" not work. And for someone who is obeying God and is loving and caring for any and all people, prayer can be preventive . . . that the person doesn't get sick, in the first place, or injured. But there are "nice" actors who aren't really so nice, and this can get confusing when some "great" person gets in major problems that shut the person down; ones can wonder "why" it happened to that person . . . who abuses oneself, is stubborn, yet supposedly a great person.

So, of course, I do not personally know each person in the study.

Also, if you have a variety of religions represented, I understand that ones in each religion can be more or less dedicated to that religion. A number of people in any group, to my knowledge, can be just cultural members, only putting on the show and going along with their families, perhaps. So, these might not take prayer as seriously as others. "But God might answer the half-whatever prayer of a person who doesn't really believe in it, in His mysterious ways showing the person that He is in existence and He does take that person seriously, more than the person might care about one's own self."

 

[asherahSamaria]

I appreciate that your comments are what you believe - though I hope you appreciate that to a non believer it's really just goalpost moving .

Again the Biblical passage is pretty clear - if two or more are gathered in my name...etc. There's no mention of conditions attached - eg, "They need deep correction so they, if healed, will not just continue to hurt themselves and will not be free to hurt others." That's really trying to spin it to come up with reasons why it (prayer) didn't work.

"to slow the person down so he or she is not hurting oneself in ways much more damaging and deadly than the sickness and/or so the person does not go on to hurt others or keep hurting them" - It's pretty difficult to see how not answering a prayer for for, say an infant dying of leukemia can be explained away by the comment. To a non believer it's just more evidence that there is nobody there to answer it in the first place. (I'll ignore the other two possibilities for the present - that the deity takes pleasure in the suffering or that it's not powerful enough to do anything about it)

"prayer can be preventive" again this is unfalseafiable. Lets see. I'm going to pray to the Greek pantheon deities that they prevent an asteroid hitting the earth in the next 24 hours. If that preventative prayer works then is that proof that the Greek pantheon are the true gods? I don't find that argument particularly persuasive.

"in His mysterious ways" - there's that phrase again - see how atheists hear that in comment above.

 

[bhsmte]

IMO, prayer is for comfort and hope, which all is driven by a person's individual psyche and needs.

 

[SkyWriting]

Again the Biblical passage is pretty clear - if two or more are gathered in my name.

That includes the condition, but you're overlooking it.

Lets say that "two or more" people have gathered "in the name of" Charlie Manson.
They pray for a ham sandwich....but don't get one. Odd.

Suppose two or more pray in the name of Al Capone.
Again, no sandwich.
If these two "gods of their domains" had some powers,
it wouldn't be to produce a sandwich for people on request.

"In My name" is a phrase to research and not take lightly.

 

[com7fy8]

I appreciate that your comments are what you believe - though I hope you appreciate that to a non believer it's really just goalpost moving .

I understand that nonbelievers can take what I say differently than believers might understand me. And there are believers who find me questionable

Again the Biblical passage is pretty clear - if two or more are gathered in my name...etc. There's no mention of conditions attached - eg,

I understand that "in Christ's name" can mean not only naming Him, but being in His authority by obeying Him.

I don't know what to say about the baby who dies of leukemia in spite of prayer for healing, but I know how prayer has gotten me correction. When a person dies, God does what is right with each person.

"in His mysterious ways" - there's that phrase again - see how atheists hear that in comment above.

That was clear. I read that.

 

[asherahSamaria]

That includes the condition, but you're overlooking it.

Lets say that "two or more" people have gathered "in the name of" Charlie Manson.
They pray for a ham sandwich....but don't get one. Odd.

Suppose two or more pray in the name of Al Capone.
Again, no sandwich.
If these two "gods of their domains" had some powers,
it wouldn't be to produce a sandwich for people on request.

"In My name" is a phrase to research and not take lightly.

Surely that's not a hard condition to meet. Are you saying that there has never been two people together that meet that condition? Wow - Christians must be as rare as hens teeth.

 

[SkyWriting]

Surely that's not a hard condition to meet. Are you saying that there has never been two people together that meet that condition? Wow - Christians must be as rare as hens teeth.

Effective prayer is as rare as Hen's teeth. One needs to connect with the Holy Spirit
to know what to pray for, in order to get an answer to the prayer.

If people prayed effective selfish prayers, then who would ever win the superbowl?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

If I'm randomly born into a muultiverse, what would a social history of healing prayer have to do with it?

 

[asherahSamaria]

Effective prayer is as rare as Hen's teeth. One needs to connect with the Holy Spirit
to know what to pray for, in order to get an answer to the prayer.

If people prayed effective selfish prayers, then who would ever win the superbowl?

Does that not flag up all sorts of questions as to the efficacy of it in the first place - never mind the morality of it?

 

[com7fy8]

There are people who pray about some one big problem, while before then they have not been trusting and obeying God.

So - - anther thing . . . prayer needs to be all the time in and about all things of a person's life. Prayer needs to not be only about some one limited thing, and a "last thought" about what to do.

And if I don't personally know every human on this earth, I can't tell you how rare or not life-giving prayer is.

Also, if there can be cultural members of religious groups . . . people who don't believe in the religion which they are play-acting for different reasons . . . then I suppose there can be "cultural atheists" and "cultural agnostics" who are doing it for some reason . . . maybe to get research money support from atheistic people they know, or for using people for sexual stuff, or other things, including to distance themselves from religious people they don't like, personally. Possibly ones using "atheism" just don't care, in a number of cases.

But if you are "real" and devoutly atheistic, you might only be able to connect with ones of your feather, so you think "all" atheists are like you. The fakers might know how to play the role, too. I know we have showers and tellers who present themselves to be "real" Bible people, but there are things they don't say and do, plus the amount of time and attention they give to different things can be a give-away. Plus, in prayer you can have the ability to sense if someone is ministering God's own love to you, or not exactly. So, prayer is also for staying in sharing with God and having sense for telling the difference.

It's like how sheep might not know everything, but they have the sense of smell.

 

[asherahSamaria]

There are people who pray about some one big problem, while before then they have not been trusting and obeying God.

So - - anther thing . . . prayer needs to be all the time in and about all things of a person's life. Prayer needs to not be only about some one limited thing, and a "last thought" about what to do.

And if I don't personally know every human on this earth, I can't tell you how rare or not life-giving prayer is.

Also, if there can be cultural members of religious groups . . . people who don't believe in the religion which they are play-acting for different reasons . . . then I suppose there can be "cultural atheists" and "cultural agnostics" who are doing it for some reason . . . maybe to get research money support from atheistic people they know, or for using people for sexual stuff, or other things, including to distance themselves from religious people they don't like, personally. Possibly ones using "atheism" just don't care, in a number of cases.

But if you are "real" and devoutly atheistic, you might only be able to connect with ones of your feather, so you think "all" atheists are like you. The fakers might know how to play the role, too. I know we have showers and tellers who present themselves to be "real" Bible people, but there are things they don't say and do, plus the amount of time and attention they give to different things can be a give-away. Plus, in prayer you can have the ability to sense if someone is ministering God's own love to you, or not exactly. So, prayer is also for staying in sharing with God and having sense for telling the difference.

It's like how sheep might not know everything, but they have the sense of smell.

I think we are getting a bit off topic here but...

"But if you are "real" and devoutly atheistic" - that's an odd phrase. Atheism is just a view on a single issue - are their any gods. Atheists do not believe any of the god claims - that's it. Just as you don't believe most of them, we just go one claim further. Beyond that their views on everything are as diverse as any other group. Admittedly they "tend" to be more liberal but that's by no means a given. I would lean to the more fiscally conservative viewpoint for example - which is probably against the norm.

"So, prayer is also for staying in sharing with God and having sense for telling the difference" - It's really quite amazing what the human mind can do. Emotions / feelings etc are incredibly powerful. They can drive people to do both great feats of goodness or terrible feats of depravity. I think - but could be wrong - that prayer like meditation or other rituals does imprint itself on the mind and can fill a person with the emotions that drive then onwards - including feeling good about themselves. This doesn't necessarily manifest on the real world however. If it motivates themselves to go out and help the homeless for example that's great, if it motivates them to fly a plane into a building that's not so good. Either way it's still them that doing the actions - not some external entity.

If prayer really was "real" (in an external entity interfering way) surely somebody somewhere should have prayed for say, a child's limb to regrow, but it seems to never have happened.

 

[com7fy8]

If prayer really was "real" (in an external entity interfering way) surely somebody somewhere should have prayed for say, a child's limb to regrow, but it seems to never have happened.

understood

But prayer is mainly for how we become with God >

"praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God" (in Jude 20-21)

And ones secular make quite a claim how predators and psychopaths can not change, but I have experienced how God's love has been curing me. Methods and physical medications indeed do not cure personality trouble.

So, people can theorize about physical results of prayer, but the physical won't last into eternity. However, God does want us to have compassion for physically suffering people and do what we can to help them, and we do pray for them to be physically healed.

 

[Tree of Life]

Hi everyone, new member here. I joined because I have been struggling with a thought recently and wanted to see what others thought.

I often find myself asking God for non-spiritual things, as I imagine a lot of people do; financial or job security, good decision on a big purchase, healing, etc. recently, I have been wondering if it makes any difference.

What makes you think that these things are non-spiritual?

I'm convinced of the need to pray for spiritual development but even the Bible says that that's all we need to ask for "and all these things shall be added unto you." God knows me and my future and always has even before I was born. If He truly loves me (which He does) then He will do whatever is best for me and my family in the big picture. If that's not in line with what I see as good in my nearsighted vision, God won't grant me my request. What would be the point of specific prayer then? Should I simply ask God to do what's best? Could I possibly change God's mind about whether someone receiving healing or passing on? Getting a promotion or not? Moving or not? Any thoughts are appreciated.

You'll never change God's mind about anything. But God does respond to prayer. Sometimes God acts because we pray. There are multiple examples of this in Scripture. But the primary reason to pray is to become aware of God's presence and to know God more intimately.

 

[seashale76]

Hi everyone, new member here. I joined because I have been struggling with a thought recently and wanted to see what others thought.

I often find myself asking God for non-spiritual things, as I imagine a lot of people do; financial or job security, good decision on a big purchase, healing, etc. recently, I have been wondering if it makes any difference.

I'm convinced of the need to pray for spiritual development but even the Bible says that that's all we need to ask for "and all these things shall be added unto you." God knows me and my future and always has even before I was born. If He truly loves me (which He does) then He will do whatever is best for me and my family in the big picture. If that's not in line with what I see as good in my nearsighted vision, God won't grant me my request. What would be the point of specific prayer then? Should I simply ask God to do what's best? Could I possibly change God's mind about whether someone receiving healing or passing on? Getting a promotion or not? Moving or not? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Prayer has been called 'the breath of the soul'. Prayer is an act of spiritual communion with and glorification of God- and when we do so- we are also united with all of the spiritual world. Prayer encompasses praise, thanksgiving, and petition. It is supposed to be the goal of a Christian to learn to pray without ceasing (as per I Thess. 5:17). This is literally learning to be with God in your thoughts- where one unites their mind with their heart. In effect, it is a constant acknowledgment of God's presence. The effect of prayer is the Holy Spirit strengthening our faith, hope, love, consoles us, empowers us to do good works- and essentially gives us everything that is truly good for us.

Prayer is NOT just about petitioning God for things like healing.

 

[com7fy8]

I often find myself asking God for non-spiritual things, as I imagine a lot of people do; financial or job security, good decision on a big purchase, healing, etc. recently, I have been wondering if it makes any difference.

What makes you think that these things are non-spiritual?

I think this is a good point. And what can make anything spiritual is if we are doing it in love >

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

But the primary reason to pray is to become aware of God's presence and to know God more intimately.

Prayer can be so we get more with God, and then we can stay this way while doing different things, in His love So, prayer can be a process of getting into the spiritual "standard" for how we need to be with God while we are living our lives. I can pray to get still and quiet and peaceful and loving and sensitive to God so I can submit to how He leads me, then stay this way while doing the things He has me doing.

And there is a request in this > I request that God makes me humble and kind in His love, and He makes me submissive to Him the way He wants me to be in His peace; and pray this for others, also I request His correction so I become able to do this with Him. And I will offer, that this is a request which God is committed to doing with us who have trusted in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12, Hebrews 12:4-11).

 

[sunshineforJesus]

Prayer has been called 'the breath of the soul'. Prayer is an act of spiritual communion with and glorification of God- and when we do so- we are also united with all of the spiritual world. Prayer encompasses praise, thanksgiving, and petition. It is supposed to be the goal of a Christian to learn to pray without ceasing (as per I Thess. 5:17). This is literally learning to be with God in your thoughts- where one unites their mind with their heart. In effect, it is a constant acknowledgment of God's presence. The effect of prayer is the Holy Spirit strengthening our faith, hope, love, consoles us, empowers us to do good works- and essentially gives us everything that is truly good for us.

Prayer is NOT just about petitioning God for things like healing.

This is really well said,and I love it.

 

[SkyWriting]

I was thinking about the above study that seems to show that prayer had no effect - in a controlled experiment. They were praying for other peoples recovery - not their own.

Even if prayers were answered, God may hid the results from them, the researchers, or even just from you. God prefers faith.