Why do we ignore some scriptures?

[lucaspa]

The most critical Scriptures we keep ignoring and abandoning at the cost of our own lives are variants of the same theme, viz.: firsthand knowledge of God in Christ's ultimate self-revelation of his divine identity and authority at his death on the cross developed in the following outline:

1) The "tree of life" (Gen. 2: 7-9)

2) The burning but unconsumed bush or self-sufficient fire with a promise of an encore for posterity (Ex. 3: 1-15) and

3) Christ's answer to the question, "Who are you?" (John 8: 21-28 invoking the incident of the burning bush; and Matt. 16:18 proposing a litmus test for Christ's immortality with global benefits)

The reason why we keep ignoring God is because of love for ourselves and our preference for the "tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad" (Gen. 2:9), e.g., the theological doctrine of Adam's "original sin" for which we are responsible ourselves!

Yes, ignoring Christ is bad. However, I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. The Tree of Life in Genesis 2-3 has nothing to do with Christ. Remember, Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from that three because God did not want us living forever. The Tree, in that story, is a Tree, not a symbol of Christ.

The Burning Bush in Exodus is God the Father. There are no overtones in that story that it is Christ. When asked His "name", God the Father replies "I am that I am". This became the common term for the Jews to refer to God -- because God has no "name". John has Jesus use this term "I am" to refer to himself, indicating Jesus is God.

Now, the original sin was disobeying God. It had nothing to do with a "preference for the tree ..." or for knowing what is good and what is evil. All sin since then is disobeying God. Yes, we sin, but we don't all sin because of "our preference ... for the "tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad". " We sin because we place our interests above God's interests. Some of us sin by coveting what others have, some in treating our parents badly, all of us at some point by failing to love our neighbors as ourselves.

We are not responsible for Adam's sin. Instead, Adam and Eve are simply meant to stand for what each and every one of us does: at some point in our lives we put our own selfish desires above what God wants.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Do Scriptures have any other use than to serve as a road map to God's self-revelation in Christ's death on the cross according to the terms and seal in the "new covenant"? (Jer. 31: 3-34; Matt. 26. 26-29). They certainly do not unless for our own self-serving ends!

 

[Woldeyesus]

Yes, ignoring Christ is bad. However, I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. The Tree of Life in Genesis 2-3 has nothing to do with Christ. Remember, Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from that three because God did not want us living forever. The Tree, in that story, is a Tree, not a symbol of Christ.

The Burning Bush in Exodus is God the Father. There are no overtones in that story that it is Christ. When asked His "name", God the Father replies "I am that I am". This became the common term for the Jews to refer to God -- because God has no "name". John has Jesus use this term "I am" to refer to himself, indicating Jesus is God.

Now, the original sin was disobeying God. It had nothing to do with a "preference for the tree ..." or for knowing what is good and what is evil. All sin since then is disobeying God. Yes, we sin, but we don't all sin because of "our preference ... for the "tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad". " We sin because we place our interests above God's interests. Some of us sin by coveting what others have, some in treating our parents badly, all of us at some point by failing to love our neighbors as ourselves.

We are not responsible for Adam's sin. Instead, Adam and Eve are simply meant to stand for what each and every one of us does: at some point in our lives we put our own selfish desires above what God wants.

Only if the "key" to our understanding of Scriptures is Christ's self-revelation in his perfect and diacritical death on the cross, will we be of one mind. (Col. 2: 2-3; Rev. 5)

 

[lucaspa]

Do Scriptures have any other use than to serve as a road map to God's self-revelation in Christ's death on the cross according to the terms and seal in the "new covenant"? (Jer. 31: 3-34; Matt. 26. 26-29). They certainly do not unless for our own self-serving ends!

That isn't what Paul said scriptures do. Remember 2 Timothy 3:16. The use you say scriptures have is not mentioned by Paul at all.

If you hold to this view, then all the Jews who lived and died according to the old covenant before Jesus never knew God. I find that very difficult to accept.

The main goal of scriptures are to help people find God. That's why the Reformation emphasized that scriptures should be in the local languages, not Latin. So that everyone could use scripture to help find God.

 

[lucaspa]

Only if the "key" to our understanding of Scriptures is Christ's self-revelation in his perfect and diacritical death on the cross, will we be of one mind. (Col. 2: 2-3; Rev. 5)

I would remind you that this is a forum for Wesleyans, not for someone to come in and tell us what to believe. If you use your "key", then you are not listening to God in scripture, but imposing your own view onto scripture.

For instance, your view causes a misinterpretation of Col 2:2-3. What Paul said was that Christ is the key to God's mystery. He wasn't talking about understanding scripture.
"2I do it to encourage them. Then as their hearts are joined together in love, they will be wonderfully blessed with complete understanding. And they will truly know Christ. Not only is he the key to God's mystery,
3but all wisdom and knowledge are hidden away in him."

Remember, Paul was telling the Gentiles to ignore most of the scripture of the day -- the Torah.

Part of the rules of interpretation are to view documents as the people of the time did. Anything has to be understood by the people of the time in order for them to preserve it. Coming along later and imposing a view based upon later events that those people did not know about violates those rules.

Again, scripture is for listening to God, not imposing your ideas on what it ought to say.

 

[Manofheart777]

Most Christians have a hard time with this. Here it is. Issiah 49:1, Listen to me you islands, hear this you distant nations, before I was born the Lord called me; from my birth he made mention of my name.

Issiah is calling out the whole world right here and saying, LISTEN TO ME! But why can he say this to the world, he says, BEFORE I WAS BORN, THE LORD CALLED ME!

But actually, he wasn't called until he was 14 in the temple, when God gave him the vision of the cherubim. So what is he talking about? If you study all of chapter 49, you can see that Isiah was the one who had been wrestling with God, trying to follow him and listen to him. But then he say's, no, it was God who choose me from my mothers womb. As he grew in God and as he came to know God personally, he could see that it was God who had been wrestling with him, and it was God who called him from the foundations of creations. He could see that personally about his life. When he came to really know personally, that he came from God, and God sent him to do this work, then he could boldly say to the nations, listen up you nations! He knew why he was here from God. This is what Christian life is about. As we come to know God through his words, he restores us to what we where created to be, and he makes us into rulers and conquers. He shows us why we are here, and what to do. It's about Gods image and likeness being restored.

John Westly would have his followers get in groups and write testimonies. Through those testimonies based on the messages, people would come to know Gods grace upon there own lives, and they could come to see more clearly what God wanted them to do.

 

[Manofheart777]

Do Scriptures have any other use than to serve as a road map to God's self-revelation in Christ's death on the cross according to the terms and seal in the "new covenant"? (Jer. 31: 3-34; Matt. 26. 26-29). They certainly do not unless for our own self-serving ends!

By saying this, you just chucked the whole book out the window. Now you can just say, I believe, I believe and just go home, and have spegetti and watch TV.. lol.. That's not what Jesus is talking about.

John 1:12 Yet, to all who recieve him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

Notice it does not say, to those who believe in his name, you are children of God. Nope, but it say, you have the right. A legal term. You gotta look at these things. What does the right mean? If you did bad, you have your name on the board with check marks, could you become a child of God? Yes, you can. Ok, how about this, one day you go to work, and you see someone you know, can you say you have the right to talk to them? No you can't, they might say, oh sorry, I'm busy, can you come back later. Then you would probably be a little embarrassed. But what if that person invites you saying, 'at lunch, when you see us, come up to us and meet my friends.' Now do you have the right? Yes, now you can say you have the right. But what if you don't go?

If people don't live the life Jesus is talking about they are not saved. Most people who say Lord, Lord, are not saved.

It says, yet to those who believe in his name. What does that mean? Jesus has many names. One is Lord. What does it mean when you say, Jesus is my Lord? Your basically saying, he owns me, he is my master. So those who believe that Jesus is there Lord, have the right to become children of God, meaning, they deny their own wil upon there lives as to take Jesus will upon there lives, and God establishes that person as his child.

How about people who call him savior? Jesus is my savior who saves me from my sins? This shows that they needed to be saved from there sins. They where trapped and dying because of there sins, and they couldn't get out, but Jesus rescued them and saved them from there sins. What about someone who says Jesus us my savior who saved me from my sins, but they sin freely after making such statment? Are they really free from their sins? NO WAY!! But only those who take up the life Jesus is taking about. When they listen to Jesus in there day to day life, and they struggle to put his words into practice, weather at work, or at school, because Jesus is there in there lives, the power of darkness loses power in there lives, and they can come out of there sins.

Yes darkness has power, but Jesus is the light of the world. So what is light? What is a light bulb? Imagine your room with the lights off. If you have to get your wallet out of your room, what should you do? Turn on the lights. What if you just run into your room full bore without turning on the light? What will happen? Maybe hit the edge of your bed, grabbing your dressers to try to keep you up and pulling everything down on top of you in a large bang and you brake your leg and say, "HOW DID I GET HERE!" That's how Christians live there lives. Jesus talks about a life of saving souls. Before we live a life of fishing for fish. We went out there early in the morning to try to make that big catch. If it was big, we where happy, if it was small, we became sad and depressed. But now we don't live for such silly things anymore, but Jesus said, I will make you into fishers of men. This is the best blessing for man kind. Now why should we get up in the morning, and not what should we struggle for? Catching men. I work so I can pursue my mission. Everything in my life is about pursuing my mission in God. This is what my life is about now. Yes, I'm taking about works. Your works shows your faith. If you don't have much works, it's because you don't have much faith. Paul talks about this.

Look, part of what you said was true, but understand that the works God gives to us, this new life, is a life of remembering and enjoying Gods grace. For instance, the Israelites, after Moses took them out of the promised land. They didn't just go to sleep and die after words. Their lives was not about remembering Gods grace upon there lives. All the festivals and the laws where about remembering what God had done for them in Egypt. How he intervines and rescued them. So in a way, your right, our knew life is all about remembering Jesus grace. So by obeying the law, and by doing these works, you can come to know Gods grace more personally and more vividly. You come to have Gods heart, and you come to be more like God more and more. This is Gods desire. But people who just say, oh, just believe and your saved, you don't have to 'DO ANYTHING' it;s completely free, but then they live for the worthless things of the world and not for God, most people won't make it. Sorry to say. But God is wrestling with us in hopes that we will.

 

[Woldeyesus]

That isn't what Paul said scriptures do. Remember 2 Timothy 3:16. The use you say scriptures have is not mentioned by Paul at all.

If you hold to this view, then all the Jews who lived and died according to the old covenant before Jesus never knew God. I find that very difficult to accept.

The main goal of scriptures are to help people find God. That's why the Reformation emphasized that scriptures should be in the local languages, not Latin. So that everyone could use scripture to help find God.

In accordance with the terms and seal of the “new covenant”, based on direct knowledge of God to one and all, Jew and Gentile (Jer. 31: 31-34; Luke 2: 28- 32; Matt. 26: 26-29), the VALIDITY AND RELIABILITY OF SCRIPTURES span the time from “In the beginning” (Gen. 1:1) to “It is finished”, viz.: the defining moment of Jesus Christ as Lord (John 19:30).

Such a concept perfectly agrees with the demerits of two kinds of claims and the exclusive virtue of works of Jesus emphasized for witnessing by trained disciples (John 5: 31-36; 10: 17-18, 37-38; 12: 20-36; 14: 6-21; 16: 5-33; 17:1 - 19: 30), and excludes all other books as commentaries!

Only by knowing the Scriptures or God’s power can we come to acknowledge such immortals as Moses and Elijah (Deut. 34; 2 Kings 2: 1-18; Matt. 17: 1-13) and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex. 3: 1-15; Matt. 22: 29-33); and also begin to live in the image of the living Christ (John 11: 25-26; 14: 18-21).

Therefore, the concept of Scriptures as road map to God’s final self-revelation in Christ’s death on the cross is highly noteworthy deserving all our prayers and serious study. AMEN.

 

[Woldeyesus]

I would remind you that this is a forum for Wesleyans, not for someone to come in and tell us what to believe. If you use your "key", then you are not listening to God in scripture, but imposing your own view onto scripture.

For instance, your view causes a misinterpretation of Col 2:2-3. What Paul said was that Christ is the key to God's mystery. He wasn't talking about understanding scripture.
"2I do it to encourage them. Then as their hearts are joined together in love, they will be wonderfully blessed with complete understanding. And they will truly know Christ. Not only is he the key to God's mystery,
3but all wisdom and knowledge are hidden away in him."

Remember, Paul was telling the Gentiles to ignore most of the scripture of the day -- the Torah.

Part of the rules of interpretation are to view documents as the people of the time did. Anything has to be understood by the people of the time in order for them to preserve it. Coming along later and imposing a view based upon later events that those people did not know about violates those rules.

Again, scripture is for listening to God, not imposing your ideas on what it ought to say.

According to Jesus Christ, the cause of an ever-widening difference between the person who will be given more because he has already something and another who will lose even the little he has because he has nothing at all is the presence or absence, respectively, of initial “knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven”, i.e., an altruistic expression for Christ’s own identity (Matt. 13: 11-12; John 3: 1-3).
This Christ factor is acknowledged by one apostle, as “God’s secret or the key that opens up the hidden treasures of God’s wisdom and knowledge”; and by another, as the “Lamb standing in the centre of the throne … appeared to have been killed”, the life-giving Spirit, all-powerful and all-wise including the exclusive rights of breaking open the seven seals on the scroll through inspired interpretation (Col. 2: 1-3; Rev. 5).
Be it far from me to impose my own view on Scriptures!
In any case, the reason why we ignore some scriptures or abandon them altogether is because we do not at all understand them without the "Christ factor".

 

[Manofheart777]

Yes I can agree with you about the Bible being the Special revelation of Gods grace, Jesus Christ. But my point is theirs much more to it than just to say, the cross was revealed and that's it. Than anyone who says, I believe has their ticket to heaven. But that's not the case. The Bible talks about teaching. In Acts 5:20, the angel tells Peter and John, go, and tell them the full message of this new life. The full message of this new life meaning there is a full message. Not half message or piece of message you find doing theological studies, but "THE" full message. Also, new life means that there is a new life that the message is pointing to. This is what we are to teach.

It goes like this. Based on what Jesus did for us, his death and resurrection. Believing and living according to these facts should bring us a new life if we truly believe. So for instance, if you believe that Jesus really did raise from death and in doing so conquered death, this should bring something new to your life. Because he died, I will not die but be raised to eternal life. Meaning, death is not the end of my life. So now I can live for a brand new life in Jesus Kingdom. So not this should influence the way I live my life. Now I can serve God wholeheartedly no matter what the cost and in every circumstance because no matter what, fundamentally, I know where I'm going. I will not die, but be raised to life. I don't need to fear this life anymore. There's so much that can be said about this. But this is not a theological matter anymore, but very real when you really come to believe that Jesus died for you. I tell people this and Christians who have been raised in the chuch look at me like I'm crazy. This shows that they don't believe and their lives show that the gospel carries no power in their lives. If you really believe that you will not die but resurrect, then how would you live your life? What would you do with your life? But not even Peter could live up to that. For when his faith was first tested, he failed miserably denying Jesus 3 times. This shows that there is much to learn about Christian life. It;s not just stuff that you get out of the library, a bunch of theological things that you study, and if you can pass the test, you go to heaven. I could hardly understand any of the things you wrote. It's all in your head and means nothing until you live it and experience it. It's about knowing Gods grace in your life personally. Remember how the Israelites where commanded to observe all those laws. Actually it was 613 laws that has to observe. It was all to remember the grace of God in there lives. Everything we do in our Christian lives is about remembering what Jesus did for us. When we live in the way Jesus desires, we can see more clearly what God has done for us personally. We can come to experience his grace more personally, and in that way, you can grow in grace more and more. It's revealing Gods grace in your life. Not just some head knowledge of events that happened 2000 years ago. No but based on what he did 2000 years ago, what kind of life do you live? Knowing Gods grace should change your life. Or change in your life should reveal Gods grace to you more. But head knowledge means nothing. John Westley understood this. That's why he would have his followers write testimonies based on the passages to that people would come to see more clearly how they should live their lives based on Gods grace.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Yes I can agree with you about the Bible being the Special revelation of Gods grace, Jesus Christ. But my point is theirs much more to it than just to say, the cross was revealed and that's it. Than anyone who says, I believe has their ticket to heaven. But that's not the case. The Bible talks about teaching. In Acts 5:20, the angel tells Peter and John, go, and tell them the full message of this new life. The full message of this new life meaning there is a full message. Not half message or piece of message you find doing theological studies, but "THE" full message. Also, new life means that there is a new life that the message is pointing to. This is what we are to teach.

It goes like this. Based on what Jesus did for us, his death and resurrection. Believing and living according to these facts should bring us a new life if we truly believe. So for instance, if you believe that Jesus really did raise from death and in doing so conquered death, this should bring something new to your life. Because he died, I will not die but be raised to eternal life. Meaning, death is not the end of my life. So now I can live for a brand new life in Jesus Kingdom. So not this should influence the way I live my life. Now I can serve God wholeheartedly no matter what the cost and in every circumstance because no matter what, fundamentally, I know where I'm going. I will not die, but be raised to life. I don't need to fear this life anymore. There's so much that can be said about this. But this is not a theological matter anymore, but very real when you really come to believe that Jesus died for you. I tell people this and Christians who have been raised in the chuch look at me like I'm crazy. This shows that they don't believe and their lives show that the gospel carries no power in their lives. If you really believe that you will not die but resurrect, then how would you live your life? What would you do with your life? But not even Peter could live up to that. For when his faith was first tested, he failed miserably denying Jesus 3 times. This shows that there is much to learn about Christian life. It;s not just stuff that you get out of the library, a bunch of theological things that you study, and if you can pass the test, you go to heaven. I could hardly understand any of the things you wrote. It's all in your head and means nothing until you live it and experience it. It's about knowing Gods grace in your life personally. Remember how the Israelites where commanded to observe all those laws. Actually it was 613 laws that has to observe. It was all to remember the grace of God in there lives. Everything we do in our Christian lives is about remembering what Jesus did for us. When we live in the way Jesus desires, we can see more clearly what God has done for us personally. We can come to experience his grace more personally, and in that way, you can grow in grace more and more. It's revealing Gods grace in your life. Not just some head knowledge of events that happened 2000 years ago. No but based on what he did 2000 years ago, what kind of life do you live? Knowing Gods grace should change your life. Or change in your life should reveal Gods grace to you more. But head knowledge means nothing. John Westley understood this. That's why he would have his followers write testimonies based on the passages to that people would come to see more clearly how they should live their lives based on Gods grace.

We have two alternative points about the Bible, viz.:

1. A road map to God's final and perpetual self-revelation, in Christ's perfect and diacritical death on the cross, viz.: our source and critical mass for eternal life with unlimited growth in his grace and knowledge; and

2. A "Special revelation of God's grace, Jesus Christ".

It is inconceivable that there is more than the former.

 

[Woldeyesus]

By saying this, you just chucked the whole book out the window. Now you can just say, I believe, I believe and just go home, and have spegetti and watch TV.. lol.. That's not what Jesus is talking about.

John 1:12 Yet, to all who recieve him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

Notice it does not say, to those who believe in his name, you are children of God. Nope, but it say, you have the right. A legal term. You gotta look at these things. What does the right mean? If you did bad, you have your name on the board with check marks, could you become a child of God? Yes, you can. Ok, how about this, one day you go to work, and you see someone you know, can you say you have the right to talk to them? No you can't, they might say, oh sorry, I'm busy, can you come back later. Then you would probably be a little embarrassed. But what if that person invites you saying, 'at lunch, when you see us, come up to us and meet my friends.' Now do you have the right? Yes, now you can say you have the right. But what if you don't go?

If people don't live the life Jesus is talking about they are not saved. Most people who say Lord, Lord, are not saved.

It says, yet to those who believe in his name. What does that mean? Jesus has many names. One is Lord. What does it mean when you say, Jesus is my Lord? Your basically saying, he owns me, he is my master. So those who believe that Jesus is there Lord, have the right to become children of God, meaning, they deny their own wil upon there lives as to take Jesus will upon there lives, and God establishes that person as his child.

How about people who call him savior? Jesus is my savior who saves me from my sins? This shows that they needed to be saved from there sins. They where trapped and dying because of there sins, and they couldn't get out, but Jesus rescued them and saved them from there sins. What about someone who says Jesus us my savior who saved me from my sins, but they sin freely after making such statment? Are they really free from their sins? NO WAY!! But only those who take up the life Jesus is taking about. When they listen to Jesus in there day to day life, and they struggle to put his words into practice, weather at work, or at school, because Jesus is there in there lives, the power of darkness loses power in there lives, and they can come out of there sins.

Yes darkness has power, but Jesus is the light of the world. So what is light? What is a light bulb? Imagine your room with the lights off. If you have to get your wallet out of your room, what should you do? Turn on the lights. What if you just run into your room full bore without turning on the light? What will happen? Maybe hit the edge of your bed, grabbing your dressers to try to keep you up and pulling everything down on top of you in a large bang and you brake your leg and say, "HOW DID I GET HERE!" That's how Christians live there lives. Jesus talks about a life of saving souls. Before we live a life of fishing for fish. We went out there early in the morning to try to make that big catch. If it was big, we where happy, if it was small, we became sad and depressed. But now we don't live for such silly things anymore, but Jesus said, I will make you into fishers of men. This is the best blessing for man kind. Now why should we get up in the morning, and not what should we struggle for? Catching men. I work so I can pursue my mission. Everything in my life is about pursuing my mission in God. This is what my life is about now. Yes, I'm taking about works. Your works shows your faith. If you don't have much works, it's because you don't have much faith. Paul talks about this.

Look, part of what you said was true, but understand that the works God gives to us, this new life, is a life of remembering and enjoying Gods grace. For instance, the Israelites, after Moses took them out of the promised land. They didn't just go to sleep and die after words. Their lives was not about remembering Gods grace upon there lives. All the festivals and the laws where about remembering what God had done for them in Egypt. How he intervines and rescued them. So in a way, your right, our knew life is all about remembering Jesus grace. So by obeying the law, and by doing these works, you can come to know Gods grace more personally and more vividly. You come to have Gods heart, and you come to be more like God more and more. This is Gods desire. But people who just say, oh, just believe and your saved, you don't have to 'DO ANYTHING' it;s completely free, but then they live for the worthless things of the world and not for God, most people won't make it. Sorry to say. But God is wrestling with us in hopes that we will.

Yes, indeed, just like in the Parable of the Growing Seed! (Mark 4: 26-29)

One who has the privilege of vision-based firsthand knowledge of God in Christ's perfect and diacritical death on the cross, viz.: the source and critical mass for the born-again and brand new life in the Spirit (John 3: 1-21), will be given more so that he will have more than enough without even knowing how it happens.(Matt. 13: 11-12; Mark 4: 26-29)

Conclusive proof is in personal experience of the truth about Christ which alone sets us free! AMEN. (John 8: 21-32)

 

[Manofheart777]

Yes, indeed, just like in the Parable of the Growing Seed! (Mark 4: 26-29)

One who has the privilege of vision-based firsthand knowledge of God in Christ's perfect and diacritical death on the cross, viz.: the source and critical mass for the born-again and brand new life in the Spirit (John 3: 1-21), will be given more so that he will have more than enough without even knowing how it happens.(Matt. 13: 11-12; Mark 4: 26-29)

Conclusive proof is in personal experience of the truth about Christ which alone sets us free! AMEN. (John 8: 21-32)

Exactly, it is like the parable of the seed. Crowds of people came and heard his awesome messages from the best bible teacher in the world, Jesus. And many heard the parable of the sower and said, "oh, I know exactly what he's talking about, he's talking about farming, yeah makes sense, if you want to grow a garden, you have to have the right soil. And they just went home, ate spaghetti and watched T.V. But it was his disciples, when they heard this parable, they knew he wasn't just talking about some farming. They wanted to know what he was talking about. So they thought about it, and thought about it and tried to really figure it out. Finally they went to Jesus and asked him, what does this mean, and he revealed it to them, and a whole nother world opened up to them. This is how learning disciples with learning minds approach the scripture. Never thinking they know what everything is about. Many people say yeah, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Yeah, I believe it. But then nothing changes in their life. It's funny, they believe God created the heavens and the earth, but then they get mad when someone cuts them off on the high way. If they took a test, they would say, evolution is false, Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. But they have no idea what that means. It carries no real meaning in there day to day lives. They go on without really seeing that God created there lives, and everything in their lives, and that God can do anything at anytime. If you really knew that God created you, then how would your life change. Your sight should change. Fatalism should cease to exist. Usually in life, it seems like there's only so many ways you can take, or it seems like we are defined by situations and events that happened in our past. But when he really comes to see that it was God who created all things and that he is in control of all things, then really a whole new world can open up to that person and he can really walk with faith and great things can happen in that persons life. But more people thing Christianity is all theological argumentations that if you can pass the test, you saved, and somehow you will get into heaven. Then they preach things like saved by faith and not by works, and yet they have no idea what that means. Or they say predetermination, but sovereign will, and still they don't know what that means. This is a whole other subject. Jesus didn't know he was going to die on the cross when he was 1 year old. The Bible says he had to grow in wisdom and stature. He had to learn a lot of things. People don't realize Jesus was really just like anyone. So how was Jesus perfect? Was it because he never over ate? No. Was it because he never got drunk? No. Than how was he righteous? He had a perfect relationship with God all the time meaning, he was one with the father. His fathers will was his will. So when people want to understand sovereignty, they really have to understand the nature of Gods creation based on the scripture. They cannot just turn the Bible into the rules of Paul's Epistle and slam people who would say something like, you can loose your salvation. That's what I see now a days, people take all these little snip its from all these different books, put them together, and make them say whatever they want it to say. But they don't necessarily know what that one scripture actually means. Thats how todays church goes now.

 

[lucaspa]

God's omnipresence would seem to indicate that God is not trapped within the arrow of time.

Let me suggest that God is not omnipresent. He is very present, just as He is very powerful and very knowing, but He is not omni in either of those categories, either. In a bit I'm going to give some evidence from science against omnipresent.

Since scripture records God as being already present in the beginning, and since Christ is specifically given the title the Alpha and Omega, and sense God is the author and creator of all things, it makes more sense to me to see him as outside of time than traveling through it.

Why? God could reasonably "know" that He is going to be around for the entire life of the universe without having to be outside of time. After all, we presume God is immortal. Therefore He can go thru time to be the Omega without being outside of time.

The argument for being "outside of time" would come from God as Creator, which you tangentially used later. At the Big Bang not only did the 3 dimensions of space come into being, but time came into being as well. Technically, there is no "before" the Big Bang because there is no time. That would indicate that God is "outside" of time. However, that still would not indicate that God would be able to see the future, as in able to travel forward in time to peek into the universe.


The reason for that is because there are so many possible futures, not just a future. Every time we make a choice, the future changes.
For us to have lives with meaning, the future must be fluid. That means that God created a universe where the future was not fixed and even He does not know exactly what it will be. While being Creator puts God "outside" of time, being loving means that God limited Himself such that He cannot know the future.

Now, as to omnipresent. Have you ever heard of Schroedinger's Cat? For those who haven't, it's a thought experiment in quantum mechanics. Some events in the quantum world are uncaused and completely unpredictable. In the Cat experiment, a cat is placed in a box. Also in the box is a packet of cyanide suspended over a beaker of water. The string holding the packet is attached to a latch that, in turn, is connected such that, when an atom of a radioisotope decays, the latch will open, the cyanide fall into the water releasing cyanide gas and the cat dies. But no one knows exactly when the atom will decay. Is the cat dead or alive? In quantum mechanics, it is both at the same time. Until we open the box and look, the cat is in what is called as a state of "coherence" where it is both at once. You need an observer to define what the cat "really" is.

Now, if God is omnipresent, then God is the observer and the cat is never in coherence. God, as the ultimate observer, determines reality and we have only one reality. However, scientists were able to construct an atomic "cat" and then probe whether it was "dead" or "alive" by running an atomic "mouse" past it. If God were omnipresent and acting as an observer, then the "cat" would never be in coherence.

What was found was that, indeed, the atom was in coherence for a set period of time. Then the coherence collapsed on its own. By using different elements to make the atomic "cat" from, the researchers found that the length of time of coherence was inversely proportional to the size. The larger the object, the shorter the time in coherence.

Thus, God is not omnipresent. I personally don't have a problem with this because I never felt the "omnis" were a necessary requirement of God. If you do think the omnis are essential for God to be God, then I have probably triggered a crisis of faith. Sorry.

 

[lucaspa]

An event can not happen on its own, it must be caused by something, another event, a causality preceding it, a doer (sometimes God) acting on the present to make the future.

That turns out not to be the case. At the quantum level individual events are uncaused.

Theologically, this turns out to be a good thing. If we hold to the strict determinism you outlined, then none of us have free will. Ever agonize over a decision? It was a waste of time, because your decision was predetermined by all the causes that went before it.

As you pointed out God is the creator of all things including time, and he created time out of causality restricting himself in order to give man free will. That was the free will of a loving God, willing to take the chance that man will not always obey or make the right choices.

Now this I agree with. The reason I think we get free will and have an open future is so that our lives can have meaning. God so loves us that He created a universe where He is limited so that what we do has real consequences for the future.

 

[lucaspa]

Be it far from me to impose my own view on Scriptures!
In any case, the reason why we ignore some scriptures or abandon them altogether is because we do not at all understand them without the "Christ factor".

You just contradicted yourself. You are imposing your own view of a "Christ factor" onto scripture. I notice that you never specifically address the arguments I make. Instead, you go off on some tangent quoting more scripture.

We can understand the OT without invoking a "Christ factor". The Jews of the time did and modern Jews still do. As I said, the Tree of Life is a tree with fruit that gives everlasting life. Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden before they can eat of it. If you think the Tree is the symbol of Jesus, then Adam and Eve are being prevented from knowing Jesus!

And again, this forum is not for you to come into and tell us what to believe. There is the General Theology forum for you to preach your theology.

 

[lucaspa]

We have two alternative points about the Bible, viz.:

1. A road map to God's final and perpetual self-revelation, in Christ's perfect and diacritical death on the cross, viz.: our source and critical mass for eternal life with unlimited growth in his grace and knowledge;

"our source and critical mass"? What about our ongoing and continuing relationship with the risen Christ?

What Bible did Paul and Peter have? NONE. Paul's "road map" was the risen Jesus and God. Not the Bible.

What about those Christians who lived and were saved before the Bible was chosen. Remember, the books of the NT were not chosen until over 200 years after Jesus' death. What did Ireneaus, Origen, Athanasius, and the other Church Fathers have for a roadmap? They didn't have "the Bible"

You place too much emphasis on the Bible. Christianity is about a man, not about a book about a man. And that man lives. When you focus so hard on the Bible, you forget that Jesus lives.

2. A "Special revelation of God's grace, Jesus Christ".

This is it. This is what the gospels are.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Let me suggest that God is not omnipresent. He is very present, just as He is very powerful and very knowing, but He is not omni in either of those categories, either. In a bit I'm going to give some evidence from science against omnipresent.



Why? God could reasonably "know" that He is going to be around for the entire life of the universe without having to be outside of time. After all, we presume God is immortal. Therefore He can go thru time to be the Omega without being outside of time.

If God was limited as you imply then he could do those things and produce the result you postulate. I don't think God is so limited because if it were so, then I believe that scripture would reveal that Jesus was the Alpha and will be the Omega. But that is NOT what scripture says. Just as Jesus himself makes a point of verb tense to show substantiate the resurrection of the dead (see Matthew 22:31-32), so I believe the verb tenses of Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 show God to be outside of time. Yet, since he is also present with us in the midst of (our) time, he must be always present which, given God's apparent nature of being outside of (our) time would make him omnipresent.

Since you like physics (and I have heard of Schroedinger's Cat, though I learn of it in a psychology class and then later a philosophy class, never physics) consider the photon. Physics tells us that though it is created on the surface of a star, yet that same physics also tells us the photon that journey's from that star to our eye doesn't exist in between, but only comes into being again at the point of detection on our retina. When we speak about photons we still speak about them traveling through space, but technically they don't. We may in our casual speach likewise speak of God moving with us through time, but I don't find your argument convincing that he does. I suggest to you that there in fact is no state of coherence; it is only we who live in an alternate reality from that in which God exists who are unaware of what our ultimate reality is even though I don't hold that God chooses it for us but still grants us free will to select it for ourselves.


But with regard to God being omnipotent, I have no argument with the idea of God being self-limiting. That same self-limiting character could also allow for him to be outside of time and yet give us free will to make decisions within time.

 

[lucaspa]

I don't think God is so limited because if it were so, then I believe that scripture would reveal that Jesus was the Alpha and will be the Omega. But that is NOT what scripture says.

You are going to make a big deal of Revelations to take literally? The one thing Revelations is not is literal. Revelations is 1) in code and 2) supposedly a vision. How can you use this as a thought-out theological piece where verbs were carefully chosen to make an obscure theological point?

Yet, since he is also present with us in the midst of (our) time, he must be always present which, given God's apparent nature of being outside of (our) time would make him omnipresent.

Omnipresent can mean everywhere in the present, and that is what it is usually used for. You seem to be using it as "present everywhere in all time at the same instant: past, present, and future. That is a very different use for "omnipresent".

Nor does it follow that being present in the midst of our time mean "always present" in all times right now. That's a non sequitor. As the present moves forward, God will be present in those times but that does not mean present "now" in that future.

Since you like physics (and I have heard of Schroedinger's Cat, though I learn of it in a psychology class and then later a philosophy class, never physics) consider the photon. Physics tells us that though it is created on the surface of a star, yet that same physics also tells us the photon that journey's from that star to our eye doesn't exist in between, but only comes into being again at the point of detection on our retina.

I believe that we can also use God's Creation to help us test our ideas about God. I side with Francis Bacon.

Sorry, but that isn't what physics tells us. The photon does exist in between. I have never in my physics classes or any book on physics I have read since seen this claim. What I have seen is that the photon is both particle and wave at the same time. If you have seen something different, please provide the source.

I suggest to you that there in fact is no state of coherence;

Actually, there is. In fact, in one experiment scientists were able to put an atom in coherence in spin up and spin down and separate the 2. That means the atom was able to exist in 2 places at the same time because of coherence.
10. J Winters, Quantum cat tricks. Discover, 17(10): 26, Oct. 1996.

it is only we who live in an alternate reality from that in which God exists who are unaware of what our ultimate reality is even though I don't hold that God chooses it for us but still grants us free will to select it for ourselves.

This is a contradiction. On one hand you say we are "unaware of what our ultimate reality is" which means that reality exists already. However, if we select reality for ourselves, then no one, not even God, is going to be aware of it until we choose. That means that being "outside time" has nothing to do with knowing what the future within our spacetime is going to be.

And that is what we are really talking about: does God know what the future in this spacetime is going to be? Being outside spacetime is separate from that, isn't it? Yes, God is not part of the universe. But being outside time does not necessarily mean that God can move forward and backward thru time within our universe. Or even peer into the universe at any time of its existence.

You will have to make an argument separate from "outside time" for God knowing the exact future or being able to be at any point in the time dimension.

 

[GraceSeeker]

You are going to make a big deal of Revelations to take literally? The one thing Revelations is not is literal. Revelations is 1) in code and 2) supposedly a vision. How can you use this as a thought-out theological piece where verbs were carefully chosen to make an obscure theological point?

How? Pretty much like I do with any other part of scripture: I read it, seek to understand what the passage is saying, and then apply it. The terms "Alpha and Omega" are not being understood literally, but as figures of speech, which I believe are used to describe Jesus' nature as an eternal being.When you say Revelation (there is only one, not multiple revelationS) is in code, I hope you aren't one of those who accepts the idea of some sort of numeric code hidden within the text. That it is a vision and at times difficult to understand the relation or import of the various symbols that are presented to the reader in the vision does not mean that a statement as simple as "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" is precluded from being used for making theological points. Wesley's note on the text -- "Who exist from everlasting to everlasting. How clear, incontestable a proof does our Lord here give of his Divine glory!" -- shows his willingness to draw theological conclusions from it.

Omnipresent can mean everywhere in the present, and that is what it is usually used for. You seem to be using it as "present everywhere in all time at the same instant: past, present, and future. That is a very different use for "omnipresent".

Merrian Webster defines omnipresent thusly: "present in all places at all times" (emphasis added)With regard to God being everywhere, I refer you to Psalm 139, which I think is so clear as to not need any commentary.And Isaiah 40:28 tells us that "The Lord is the everlasting God." And given that it is just one of many references to the eternal nature of God, I hardly think that there need be any great discussion with regard to God being at all times.As for God being present in our future, I believe that can be inferred from Isaiah 41:4 "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” In Jesus God enters into creation and thus experiences time and space just as you and I do, but prior to the incarnation my understanding of God is as a transcendent being who creates all that exists and holds it all together, but does not do so from within but outside of his creation and therefore must also exist outside of our time and space. So, as interesting as quantum physics may be, and it is no doubt helpful to increase the understanding of God for some. But, I don't think that we can use it to explain the fullness of God in whom all these things are held together (see Colossians 1:16-17).As for my understanding of the nature of a photon, it was decades ago that I learned that. It may be that I misunderstood what was being taught at the time, and I certainly don't have the ability to track down my references. Take it or leave it. It matters little to me either way. But it didn't take me long to do a quick search on Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and find some similar things being said today:

Heisenberg's Uncertainty PrinciplePhilosophical / Metaphysical Comments by Geoff HaselhurstThe following thoughts seem to me to be direct consequences of the Metaphysics of Space and the Wave Structure of Matter.1. There is no discrete particle thus it is impossible to locate the exact position of something that does not exist (the continuous motion of a 'particle').2. Motion only applies to the Wave Motion of Space, not the Motion of 'Particles' (or motion of matter in general, as Space is the only existent) thus it is impossible to know the exact momentum of a particle as neither 'particles' or particle velocity (and thus momentum) exist. They are mathematical constructions, and only approximate the real Wave Structure of Matter. Matter actually 'moves' in discrete steps as successive Spherical In-Waves meet at their Wave-Center in discrete locations in Space.(source: On Truth & Realtiy)

I don't imply that this substantiates what I said previously, but when referring to the photon when it is in motion the author writes "there is no discrete particle" and that "[it] does not exist." That comes close to what I said. It is only in the measuring of it that the photon materializes into an observable particle and behaves as a wave while in motion.