Why do we ignore some scriptures?

[PaulFan]

I am a Methodist of 5 years. I have taken Disciple 1 and 3 and am just now completing a 10 week Disciple study on Romans. I have taken other courses at this church as well. I feel I have an above average understanding of the scripture compared to others in our church congregation.

I have read many of Wesley's sermons and I do enjoy his teachings. I understand and believe the Methodist doctrine is correct EXCEPT I am beginning to question the doctrine of prevenient grace.

As I study the scriptures, I see Paul teaching an unmistakable belief in predestination with salvation a gift of God. When I am in study groups, when this subject comes up, I notice that nearly everyone simply ignores these scriptures. They instead point to scripture that indicates free-will.

I agree with both. I believe God chooses his elect and, to the believer, the choice to follow God does seem like a free-will choice and, for all intents and purposes, it is free-will.

But other Methodists simply say it is free-will and predestination is ignored.

Why do Methodists ignore so much of Paul's teachings?

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[TheArtguy58]

It isn't that we ignore passages such as Roman's 8: 28-30, but we try to put them into a perspective that adheres to the complete message of God.
Perhaps a way to look at passages in the Bible might be to take a more holistic approach. Take the whole of Paul not breaking his letters into bits and pieces and trying to draw concepts from one passage or the other and then reading complete theology into those passages. John Wesley certainly believed in taking in the whole, understanding it by those writings that come before and those that come after as well, applying, of course, reason and a person's own understanding based on life's experience.
My own thinking on free will is simple, it either exists and therefore there can be no form of predestination, or it does not exist and all things are predestined. I happen to believe that free will exists, therefore predestination can not.
As to Ephesians 2:8-9 well of course of God's Grace is a gift. We can't bestow it on ourselves. But it has nothing to do with predestination.

 

[PaulFan]

Hello "TheArtguy". Thanks for chiming in on this. It is something I seriously think about after 5 years as a Methodist. I find the truth in free-will as I believe my human mind comprehends it as real. But, the bible is full of teachings about election and about God's will in our salvation.

I don't find that there is anything else in scripture that is so readily dismissed by my Methodist brethren as are the mentions of election and predestination. As you mention that we must "take Paul's teachings as a whole", that is exactly what I refer to when I say the Pauline doctrines of election are summarily ignored by we Methodists. That is similar to the responses I receive when I bring up these teachings. It seems my Methodist brethren are saying, we will believe what we believe and will not even debate the subject. Thus, these teachings in the bible are ignored. But why?

It is not just Paul who mentions or alludes to predestination. It is also Peter, John and others who speak of election. Consider these passages;
------------------->
Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 9 (Speaking of salvation)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Romans 11:29
29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Phillipians 1:29
29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 1:11
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide

Romans 9:10-11
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ

Revelation 13:7-8
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[TheArtguy58]

There are a lot of Bible passages that indicate God's desire that all men be saved thus bringing us full circle back to free will.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
God's grace is how salvation is bestowed

1 Timothy 2:6 - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all.
Notice the word all

Hebrews 2:9 - By the grace of God Jesus tasted death for everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Of course this could go on and on, so I don't believe that simply quoting scripture is going to settle anything. It goes back to what I said before, a holistic reading of the Bible and an understanding of its roots help us to make sense of the message. We have to apply, call it reason call it common sense, to the way we see these thing.
Think of it this way, God has made believers in Christ the elected, the chosen. That is, he has said... "If you chose Me, I guarantee that I will choose you."
Election is not a guarantee of salvation but rather a guarantee of salvation by grace based on the individual's faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[PaulFan]

You make a noble defense of free-will without predestination. I appreciate that you took the time to reply back to me in order to explain (defend?) your position. Believe it or not, many I have dealt with in my local church are unwilling or incapable of explaining their position. They simply believe what they do because someone has told them to believe in free-will and to shun the scriptures which teach predestination (IMO).

I am different. I have actually read the scriptures. While the brethren in my church seem to wash away Paul's, John's, Peter's... comments about election and predestination, I cannot do so without believing that I am ignoring an important truth of the bible. I cannot explain this seeming paradox, but it appears that we are predestined and that this also involves some amount of free-will.

Between the two positions (Ignore predestination and believe only in free-will -VS- believe in predestination and free-will and realize we don't have full knowledge of how they can both exist together in God's plan), I choose the latter. I simply cannot talk myself into ignoring the scriptures on pre-destination. I guess I'm not the only Methodist who believes as I do. John Whitefield, an early founder of Methodism, also believed in predestination. He and Wesley had some amount of disagreement on the topic though they were able to patch up their differences eventually (agree to disagree). In fact, I have read that Wesley is the first person to write "agree to disagree" on paper.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Big Drew]

Maybe the truth lies in the center of the debate...it's possible that both Calvinists and Arminians are right...at least Neal Punt seems to think so, and he makes a very compelling argument...take a look at these articles when you have time, and don't let the word universalism fool you, he's not advocating the heresy that everyone will be saved.

EVANGELICAL INCLUSIVISM is the teaching that all persons are elect in Christ except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost, namely, those who ultimately reject or remain indifferent to whatever revelation God has given of himself to them whether in nature/conscience (Romans 1 & 2) OR in gospel presentation.

Biblical Universalism - Northland Books

 

[PaulFan]

Maybe the truth lies in the center of the debate...it's possible that both Calvinists and Arminians are right...

That seems to be the direction I am led to, that is to say, that somehow predestination AND free-will play a part in our salvation, though it seems to be a pardox to say so.

I came across this quote by John Wesley.

No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble.
~~ John Wesley, Sermon #58

Thank you for the link!

 

[GraceSeeker]

Hello "TheArtguy". Thanks for chiming in on this. It is something I seriously think about after 5 years as a Methodist. I find the truth in free-will as I believe my human mind comprehends it as real. But, the bible is full of teachings about election and about God's will in our salvation.

I don't find that there is anything else in scripture that is so readily dismissed by my Methodist brethren as are the mentions of election and predestination. As you mention that we must "take Paul's teachings as a whole", that is exactly what I refer to when I say the Pauline doctrines of election are summarily ignored by we Methodists. That is similar to the responses I receive when I bring up these teachings. It seems my Methodist brethren are saying, we will believe what we believe and will not even debate the subject. Thus, these teachings in the bible are ignored. But why?

It is not just Paul who mentions or alludes to predestination. It is also Peter, John and others who speak of election. Consider these passages;
------------------->
Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 9 (Speaking of salvation)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Romans 11:29
29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Phillipians 1:29
29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 1:11
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide

Romans 9:10-11
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ

Revelation 13:7-8
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

First, there is no doubt that some form of predestination or election is] present in the scriptures. The question is whether or not is the type that is irresistable and results in those not so chosen to in effect be damned or not? (WoW, the fliter didn't **** the word "damned"!)

What if election is not about individuals but God's connection with people groups? Recall that the Jews understood themselves to be God's chosen people. But, according to Paul, in Christ others who were not among the chosen are now given the same access to the Father that the chosen are. In other words, in Christ, even the pagans are elected to receive salvation, something from which heretofore they had been excluded. This, I believe, provides the background necessary to understand the most glaring of those passages that are seen to speak of predestination. It really is speaking of God's predisposition, that in the course of time, he would make a way for all to be eligible to be saved. However, this is where some universalists make a mistake and infer that this means that all will be saved. No, only that God excludes no one simply because they were not elected in Israel, for even if not elected then, we are all elected in Christ who gave his life as a ransom to take away the sins of the world, be one Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free.

 

[PaulFan]

..take a look at these articles when you have time, and don't let the word universalism fool you, he's not advocating the heresy that everyone will be saved.

biblicaluniversalism.dot.com/posting1.htm
Biblical Universalism - Northland Books

I spent about an hour reading and studying the link. My impression? It sounds like re-hashed Pelagianism to me.

 

[PaulFan]

It really is speaking of God's predisposition, that in the course of time, he would make a way for all to be eligible to be saved.

I suppose the $20 question is, who makes them eligible, God or man? That is the core of the issue. My suggestion is that it is God because man is unable. But then, I am simply repeating P.D. arguments that you may already well know.

My understanding, from my heart, is that the glory belongs to God for my salvation. If I believe in free-will as the be all and end all to my salvation (I am saved because I chose God), then I am missing the truth. I did not choose God. God chose me because I was unable to turn to him in my depraved state.

Soli Deo gloria.

 

[ContraMundum]

The idea that Wesleyans don't believe in predestination, election and so forth is complete nonsense. We do, we just don't believe the same things about them as the modern-day Calvinist does (and they are full of baloney when they present our position anyway. Calvinists never accurately portray the positions of their opponents)

In a nutshell, in my research, I found the Wesleyan-Arminian position to be most like the whole of scripture and the one in step with the Hebraic and the Church Fathers.

Here's why:

a) In the OT, election is corporate for purpose. A people or nation are elected to a purpose. There may be an argument for an individual elected for an earthly purpose too, but it's never an election to salvation. There is no valid argument that says the NT changes the corporate nature of election to individual election to eternal salvation. In other words, the Bible remains consistant if you take the Arminian position.

b) In Jewish OT thought, predestination means that if you set off on a path, you will come to the natural end of that path. The path predestines you to its destination. If you get off the path, your destination will be different. OTOH, The idea of determinism which says your actions are determined by a higher power is found in Greek philosophy. There is no valid reason to say that the Jewish paradigm changes to a Greek one in the NT. Stick with the Jewish idea, and it all makes sense.

c) Free will is scriptural, whether you like it or not. It has its limits, ordained by God, but it is there. Read the OT. That's why there is a such thing as a "Freewill" offering.

d) In theology, it is proper to establish a knowledge of the character of God and use that as the interpretive principle when exegeting scripture. Knowing that God is love, and that He is just, one cannot interpret the Bible and come to Calvinist conclusions. Calvinism goes against the nature of God on love and justice.

If you are interested in looking at this further, the Society of Evangelical Arminians has an excellent summary here. (caveat: not all Wesleyans believe in God's activity being conditioned on foreseen faith. Some of us hold the older view that He appoints the means of grace etc)

As for prevenient grace, the scriptures cite many examples. Jer 31:3, Jn 16:7-11, Rom 2:4, 10:14-17, Titus 2:11

 

[LogosRhema]

I suppose the $20 question is, who makes them eligible, God or man? That is the core of the issue. My suggestion is that it is God because man is unable. But then, I am simply repeating P.D. arguments that you may already well know.

My understanding, from my heart, is that the glory belongs to God for my salvation. If I believe in free-will as the be all and end all to my salvation (I am saved because I chose God), then I am missing the truth. I did not choose God. God chose me because I was unable to turn to him in my depraved state.

Soli Deo gloria.

Get ready for the mind trip.... we love because He first loved us as well He foreknew those who would be sensitive to the light. I have my own thoughts on this, but brain gum.

 

[ContraMundum]

My understanding, from my heart, is that the glory belongs to God for my salvation. If I believe in free-will as the be all and end all to my salvation (I am saved because I chose God), then I am missing the truth. I did not choose God. God chose me because I was unable to turn to him in my depraved state.

Soli Deo gloria.

Frankly, that completely misses the point.

All Christians believe that we are saved only by God's grace, and without His grace we cannot come to Him or be saved. God's grace comes first in both Arminian and Calvinist theology. However, we do not agree on the role of free will.

Both Calvinsm and Arminianism have a doctrine of free will. The Augustinian idea that man has free will over all things except those pertaining to God's salvation is found in both systems.

Arminians say that God's grace frees us to be able to choose (restores that original state of free will found in Eden), and Calvinists say that God's grace irresistably forces us to choose His salvation or it leaves us in our sins to reject it, the action being predetermined by God's "good pleasure", which is contradictory. Either way, we make a choice to follow God, whether it be from His drawing us freely to Himself with love and grace or whether He manipulates our hearts to the point where we have no other choice.

The problem is, without human free will, God cannot exercise real, actual and true justice: and this is part of His nature. One cannot be judged to eternal damnation by a judge who forced someone to break the same law they are judged by or who didn't stop them from doing so when they had the power and mandate to do so.

 

[TheArtguy58]

My understanding, from my heart, is that the glory belongs to God for my salvation. If I believe in free-will as the be all and end all to my salvation (I am saved because I chose God), then I am missing the truth. I did not choose God. God chose me because I was unable to turn to him in my depraved state.

Soli Deo gloria.

If a man is drowning and calls out to the shore for help and his cry is heard and someone saves him, did he save himself? Or was he exercising his will by crying out knowing it was up to someone else to save him ?

 

[PaulFan]

Frankly, that completely misses the point.
All Christians believe that we are saved only by God's grace, and without His grace we cannot come to Him or be saved.

That is not accurate. I know "some Christians" who believe they are in charge, that they chose God and that it was completely due to their free will. After that, they believe that God's grace comes into play. They will claim that God is sovereign, but that God allows for free will, even though that takes from God's sovereingity. In short, they believe that the glory belongs to the human for their salvation. I believe that is called Pelagianism.

God's grace comes first in both Arminian and Calvinist theology. However, we do not agree on the role of free will.

Both Calvinsm and Arminianism have a doctrine of free will. The Augustinian idea that man has free will over all things except those pertaining to God's salvation is found in both systems.

It may be found in "both" systems, but it is not taught in the Methodist Church I attend. At the church I attend, we use teaching materials endorsed by the greater UMC and no one teaching these classes (usually our pastors) has ever claimed that we should believe in predestination except when speaking of the Jews as the "Chosen" people. In all other instances, scriptures mentioning predestination are ignored or spun to agree with only free-will without predestination of salvation.

Arminians say that God's grace frees us to be able to choose (restores that original state of free will found in Eden), and Calvinists say that God's grace irresistably forces us to choose His salvation or it leaves us in our sins to reject it, the action being predetermined by God's "good pleasure", which is contradictory.

A seeming paradox. However, as a human, I do not profess to understand the mind of God and am willing to say that what seems like a paradox to man might be completely routine to our omniscient God.

Either way, we make a choice to follow God, whether it be from His drawing us freely to Himself with love and grace or whether He manipulates our hearts to the point where we have no other choice.

He hardened pharoah's heart. And when Saul walked away form his meeting with Samuel, God "changed Saul's heart". So, if we accept the premise that God changes our hearts for his own reasons in these cases, then predestination of man's salvation does not seem too far of a stretch.

The problem is, without human free will, God cannot exercise real, actual and true justice: and this is part of His nature. One cannot be judged to eternal damnation by a judge who forced someone to break the same law they are judged by or who didn't stop them from doing so when they had the power and mandate to do so.

Without free-will, God cannot be just? I agree that, to the human mind, it does seem so at first glance. OR, is it that we are projecting our flawed humanity on our omnipotent and omniscient God by telling God what is justice and what is not justice?

I believe it comes down to the subject of original sin. God is not responsible for sin. For some reason, God holds man accountable for his own sins. As the scripture says, no one of us is good, not even one. Man seeks evil continually. So, it comes down to whether the glass is half empty or half full. If you are a half-empty person, then God is terrible for predestining (hardening the hearts) of the unrepented sinner and that just doesn't seem acceptable to some men/women. But if you are a half-full person, then God is showing great restraint and mercy by saving for himself, a remnant, by predestining them to salvation rather than letting the whole lot expire in their sin. God has shown us examples in the scripture where he has done this before such as when he saved a remnant of 7000 Jews for himself.

 

[PaulFan]

I appreciate the time you have taken in your responses. I always enjoy speaking to other believers. Because I am limited by time, I can only respond to one of your comments below;

T
a) In the OT, election is corporate for purpose. A people or nation are elected to a purpose. There may be an argument for an individual elected for an earthly purpose too, but it's never an election to salvation. There is no valid argument that says the NT changes the corporate nature of election to individual election to eternal salvation. In other words, the Bible remains consistant if you take the Arminian position.

Are you certain of this? I did not have to look far to find passages which I believe are indicating God's will in the purpose of our "individual" salvation. Possibly though, I admit I may not have given your point due consideration because of my lack of time.

Acts 2:38-39
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[PaulFan]

Get ready for the mind trip.... we love because He first loved us

Yes, that is definitely supportive of God having a positive role in our "choosing" salvation.

What about this one;

Revelation 13:10
10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes;

The idea of destiny is replete throughout the Holy Bible.

 

[PaulFan]

If a man is drowning and calls out to the shore for help and his cry is heard and someone saves him, did he save himself? Or was he exercising his will by crying out knowing it was up to someone else to save him ?

If a man is drowning, but he is not aware that he is drowning, is it likely that he will know to call to the shore for help?

 

[PaulFan]

Free will is scriptural, whether you like it or not. It has its limits, ordained by God, but it is there. Read the OT. That's why there is a such thing as a "Freewill" offering.

I do not doubt that free-will exists. When I awoke this morning, I had a choice to sleep an extra 10 minutes or get out of bed. When I had breakfast, I had a choice of eggs or cereal. And, when I decided to come to faith in Jesus Christ, it certainly felt like a choice.

I do not, therefore, ignore the scriptures which indicate free-will. I also do not ignore the scriptures which indicate predestination. I cannot comprehend the seeming paradox with my human mind, but both ideas are in the scripture.

 

[LogosRhema]

Yes, that is definitely supportive of God having a positive role in our "choosing" salvation.

What about this one;


The idea of destiny is replete throughout the Holy Bible.

Depends on your translation:

NIV
"If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”"

YLT
"if any one a captivity doth gather, into captivity he doth go away; if any one by sword doth kill, it behoveth him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. "

KJV
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Try again.