Why do they even remain Catholic?

[Tallguy88]

That is the reason why for me if you can prove just one of her doctrines is false, then I in good conscious could not remain a Catholic. I refuse to live a lie.

I answered your question. Can you my question? Why wouldn't you leave?

I think you answered it yourself:

Speaking to Protestants, for example, it becomes obvious that they do not believe that their church teaches the full truth. That there is always going to be something that their church is going to get wrong. In a sense they overemphasize the humanity of the church, and feel that a church cannot have everything right. So they look for a church that teaches mostly what they believe.

This has been my experience with Protestants. It's also why many cafeteria Catholics stay, IMO. Just because the Church isn't 100% right in what it claims doesn't mean it's 100% wrong either. I'm don't believe in everything the church believes, but I know they got more right than, say, Baptists.

Maybe. But he isn't the first that I heard make such claims. Like I said, I don't want CC or anyone to leave the faith. That is not the intent of my discussion here with you. I desire that every sinner and unbeliever would grace a Church on Sundays. As Jesus said it is those that need healing that need a doctor.

Part of it might be a bunker mentality. When they feel they are being pushed away for their beliefs, they double down so they don't feel like they let the other person win. Just a guess, though. I don't think that way usually.

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

So, if one had to get back to basics...what are the fundamental core beliefs you must hold to be a Catholic?

 

[BBCath]

So, if one had to get back to basics...what are the fundamental core beliefs you must hold to be a Catholic?

This is the real question! To go deeper, I know one has to believe all of the Church's dogmas, but what about the Church's doctrines? Does one have to believe all of those as well?

And why does it have to be all or nothing? I love my husband. We made vows before and with God. I don't agree with him all of the time, but we are still married and will continue to be. Under the all or nothing mentality, I should divorce my husband.

 

[catholicbybirth]

This is the real question! To go deeper, I know one has to believe all of the Church's dogmas, but what about the Church's doctrines? Does one have to believe all of those as well?

And why does it have to be all or nothing? I love my husband. We made vows before and with God. I don't agree with him all of the time, but we are still married and will continue to be. Under the all or nothing mentality, I should divorce my husband.

Wow. Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

Tell me, does your husband have the charism of infallibility? If he does, then he would be the pope.

I am not "married" to the Church. That would make me Jesus if I were.

So, do not feel that we expect you to divorce your husband just because you do not follow his every teaching, if you husband does do any teaching.

Janice

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

Let me explain a bit where I'm at, and perhaps I can get some feedback about remaining Catholic. I believe that based on it's history going back to the apostles, and the vast body of study and learning accumulated by the Church, that if God exists, the Catholic faith is the one moet likely to contain the fullest measure of truth. It's the belief in God I struggle with.

I attend Mass regularly, have partaken in Sacraments, and am raising my kids Catholic. I am pro life, anti war, and see poverty and the environment as two major issues of concern. I am not concerned with fighting for women's ordination, and am ok with secular gay marriage. If I leave Catholicism...I may as well leave Christianity. I hope by attending, reading, studying, and even hanging here I may find the spark that ignites my faith.

So ya gotta let me know..should I stay or should I go?

 

[Rhamiel]

Let me explain a bit where I'm at, and perhaps I can get some feedback about remaining Catholic. I believe that based on it's history going back to the apostles, and the vast body of study and learning accumulated by the Church, that if God exists, the Catholic faith is the one moet likely to contain the fullest measure of truth. It's the belief in God I struggle with.

I attend Mass regularly, have partaken in Sacraments, and am raising my kids Catholic. I am pro life, anti war, and see poverty and the environment as two major issues of concern. I am not concerned with fighting for women's ordination, and am ok with secular gay marriage. If I leave Catholicism...I may as well leave Christianity. I hope by attending, reading, studying, and even hanging here I may find the spark that ignites my faith.

So ya gotta let me know..should I stay or should I go?

lol ofcourse you should stay
sorry I am not really following this thread
but everyone should be Catholic
simple as that

 

[Erose]

This has been my experience with Protestants. It's also why many cafeteria Catholics stay, IMO. Just because the Church isn't 100% right in what it claims doesn't mean it's 100% wrong either. I'm don't believe in everything the church believes, but I know they got more right than, say, Baptists.

Humm. So it is a percentage thing then. The Catholic Church does not possess the fullness of faith, but has more things right than the other church groups?

Part of it might be a bunker mentality. When they feel they are being pushed away for their beliefs, they double down so they don't feel like they let the other person win. Just a guess, though. I don't think that way usually.

Interesting point.

 

[BBCath]

Wow. Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

Tell me, does your husband have the charism of infallibility? If he does, then he would be the pope.

I am not "married" to the Church. That would make me Jesus if I were.

So, do not feel that we expect you to divorce your husband just because you do not follow his every teaching, if you husband does do any teaching.

Janice

Oh good grief. I was speaking metaphorically. Plus, Ephesians Chapter 5 does not speak of apples and oranges.

 

[catholicbybirth]

Oh good grief. I was speaking metaphorically. Plus, Ephesians Chapter 5 does not speak of apples and oranges.

Well, the way you were asking that since you don't agree with everything your husband says should you leave if you would be expected to leave Catholicism if you didn't agree with everything she teaches.

How could I know it was a metaphor?

Janice

 

[Erose]

So, if one had to get back to basics...what are the fundamental core beliefs you must hold to be a Catholic?

It would be doctrine and dogma, but doesn't have to be theological opinions or discipline. For example we cannot debate women ordination, as that is part of doctrine, but we can debate allowing married men become a priest as that is part of church discipline.

You don't necessarily have to agree or accept all the teachings of the faith, as most of us will never learn and understand 100% of the Church's teachings. But you should be open to the Church's teachings, and when you find one that you can't reconcile then prayer and study would be recommended.

All of us have doubts, and questions no doubt; and the Church or God does not expect us to be automatons. But we should be open to His teachings. One of the things I learned the hard way,when dealing with my personally arrogance and pride, is that I am less than 45 years old. I have only been studying the faith for what about 20 years. The Church as a whole has been studying the faith for nearly 2000 years, with men and women possessing a greater IQ than mine. There is no way I alone can compare with that. So it is a fallacy for me or any one individual to think that they are smarter than the collective whole of the Church.

Besides that when I die and so up to meet our Lord, I would much prefer to be wrong and obedient, than to be wrong and disobedient. I do believe that God will accept ignorance over arrogance any day.

 

[Wolseley]

So, if one had to get back to basics...what are the fundamental core beliefs you must hold to be a Catholic?

Well, if you want to get real basic, you have to believe what's in the Nicene Creed. If you want to get a bit more defined, you have to believe in what's in the three Creeds (Apostle's, Nicene, and Athanasian), in the truths revealed in Holy Scripture, in the truths revealed in Apostolic Tradition (the Triune Godhead, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, etc.), and in the truths defined in Catholic Dogma (the Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility, etc.).

Remember that there is a difference between defined dogma and undefined doctrine; dogma is infallible and cannot be changed; doctrine is not infallible and can be changed or even abandoned.

Let me explain a bit where I'm at, and perhaps I can get some feedback about remaining Catholic. I believe that based on it's history going back to the apostles, and the vast body of study and learning accumulated by the Church, that if God exists, the Catholic faith is the one moet likely to contain the fullest measure of truth. It's the belief in God I struggle with.

I attend Mass regularly, have partaken in Sacraments, and am raising my kids Catholic. I am pro life, anti war, and see poverty and the environment as two major issues of concern. I am not concerned with fighting for women's ordination, and am ok with secular gay marriage. If I leave Catholicism...I may as well leave Christianity. I hope by attending, reading, studying, and even hanging here I may find the spark that ignites my faith.

So ya gotta let me know..should I stay or should I go?

You should definitely stay. Everyone----everyone-----goes through doubts, dry spells, fears, difficulty believing, etc. The writings of the saints are full of it. But you never know when God is going to pop up and reveal Himself to you in the most interesting ways.

What helped me a great deal during my dry spells was to remember that I didn't come to a belief in God all by myself; you only come to God through His grace; He has to call you to Himself. That's how any of us get saved to begin with. So I figured if God originally called me through grace, then He would call me back closer to Him, so to speak, by grace; all I had to do was believe and trust. Prayer and staying close to the Sacraments also helped.

I don't know if that helps you, but it worked for me.

 

[Tallguy88]

Humm. So it is a percentage thing then. The Catholic Church does not possess the fullness of faith, but has more things right than the other church groups?

Are you asking what I believe personally? Or just trying to get my opinion on the matter in general?

 

[The Fire Rises]

As far as teaching on gay marriage, doesn't that go back to the relevance of scriptures? The most common argument I hear is that the Bible is "out-dated" and that its teachings should be interpreted based on the times we live in. But isn't that the same thing as saying morality becomes out-dated? Why would should it be prohibited back then but accepted today?

 

[Gwendolyn]

Let me explain a bit where I'm at, and perhaps I can get some feedback about remaining Catholic. I believe that based on it's history going back to the apostles, and the vast body of study and learning accumulated by the Church, that if God exists, the Catholic faith is the one moet likely to contain the fullest measure of truth. It's the belief in God I struggle with.

I attend Mass regularly, have partaken in Sacraments, and am raising my kids Catholic. I am pro life, anti war, and see poverty and the environment as two major issues of concern. I am not concerned with fighting for women's ordination, and am ok with secular gay marriage. If I leave Catholicism...I may as well leave Christianity. I hope by attending, reading, studying, and even hanging here I may find the spark that ignites my faith.

So ya gotta let me know..should I stay or should I go?

I'm in the same place.

I come by my doubt honestly - that is, I do not doubt the existence of God because I want to run wild with loose morals and throw away everything I hold dear. I do not doubt because I want to engage in premarital sex, or because I want to support abortion, or because I think women should be priests or because of any of that.

I doubt on the most basic level of all, because I truly can understand the case for no deity.

But, like you, I believe that if God exists, then I believe Him to be the God proclaimed by Christianity and upheld by Catholicism. Sometimes my brain gets locked in the debate with Orthodoxy, but honestly, it is just too much to think of right now. I should focus on simply believing in God before I focus on historical disputes.

So I'm here hoping my faith will come back. I don't embrace anything that goes against Catholicism, and when I post here, I post according to what Catholicism teaches. I do, after all, have a BA in Catholic theology, specialising in moral theology.

The mods told me I could wear the Catholic icon despite my doubt. Born, raised, baptised, communed, confessed, confirmed. Educated.

This faith was my life until my world crashed down around me, and now I sit in the rubble, trying to pick up the pieces.

Maybe when I put them back together, I will find faith again.

 

[ebia]

As far as teaching on gay marriage, doesn't that go back to the relevance of scriptures? The most common argument I hear is that the Bible is "out-dated" and that its teachings should be interpreted based on the times we live in. But isn't that the same thing as saying morality becomes out-dated? Why would should it be prohibited back then but accepted today?

Everyone - well every serious reader - recognises that the bible is contextual. Everything it says is written in some particular context and that we have to be thoughtful in the way we generalise from that and think about our own context. The bible isn't a set of timeless commands - if it were we would still be following everything in Leviticus Deuteronomy. It can't be - because many things in life are appropriate in one context and inappropriate in another.

That's not to say that same-sex sexual relations are ever God's will, but it does mean the argument can't be reduced to "the bible says it - that settles it".

 

[Root of Jesse]

Let me explain a bit where I'm at, and perhaps I can get some feedback about remaining Catholic. I believe that based on it's history going back to the apostles, and the vast body of study and learning accumulated by the Church, that if God exists, the Catholic faith is the one moet likely to contain the fullest measure of truth. It's the belief in God I struggle with.

I attend Mass regularly, have partaken in Sacraments, and am raising my kids Catholic. I am pro life, anti war, and see poverty and the environment as two major issues of concern. I am not concerned with fighting for women's ordination, and am ok with secular gay marriage. If I leave Catholicism...I may as well leave Christianity. I hope by attending, reading, studying, and even hanging here I may find the spark that ignites my faith.

So ya gotta let me know..should I stay or should I go?

Stay, by all means. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I also believe that you could be against some teaching, still obey the teaching, and still be good with God. It's when you say "I know the Church teaches XYZ, but I know better than the Church, and want to do ABC, will profess it to the world, and still say I'm Catholic." That's a hard one for us to swallow. Even so, you should stay Catholic, pipe down, try to figure out in your head why the Church's wisdom teaches that, maybe say to yourself "Lord, I don't get it, I don't see it, but being a good son or daughter, I submit myself to you."

I think it's the public advocates, like most of the powers in California who are Catholic but dissent on one or more issues, that we shake our heads at. And still, we must pray for them.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm in the same place.

I come by my doubt honestly - that is, I do not doubt the existence of God because I want to run wild with loose morals and throw away everything I hold dear. I do not doubt because I want to engage in premarital sex, or because I want to support abortion, or because I think women should be priests or because of any of that.

I doubt on the most basic level of all, because I truly can understand the case for no deity.

But, like you, I believe that if God exists, then I believe Him to be the God proclaimed by Christianity and upheld by Catholicism. Sometimes my brain gets locked in the debate with Orthodoxy, but honestly, it is just too much to think of right now. I should focus on simply believing in God before I focus on historical disputes.

So I'm here hoping my faith will come back. I don't embrace anything that goes against Catholicism, and when I post here, I post according to what Catholicism teaches. I do, after all, have a BA in Catholic theology, specialising in moral theology.

The mods told me I could wear the Catholic icon despite my doubt. Born, raised, baptised, communed, confessed, confirmed. Educated.

This faith was my life until my world crashed down around me, and now I sit in the rubble, trying to pick up the pieces.

Maybe when I put them back together, I will find faith again.

I think you guys are probably the most sincere of Catholics. Anyone who struggles that hard, yet follows is tops, in my book.

 

[Erose]

Are you asking what I believe personally? Or just trying to get my opinion on the matter in general?

Your opinion only.

 

[Tallguy88]

Your opinion only.

I think it's actually rather difficult for someone who has been raised in a multi-cultural, religiously plural society to accept the idea of absolute truth. Add to that social pressure to conform to the majority opinion (increasingly at odds with traditional morality) and I can easily see how people want to stick with the familiar (such as staying Catholic) while at the same time opposing certain beliefs the Church holds.

I was raised Protestant. When I was a seeker my mom told me that I would never find the perfect church, and that if I did, I shouldn't join it because I would mess it up! She said what was important was to find a church that preached the gospel and that I could feel at home in. I've kept that sentiment more-or-less intact. I don't agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings, but it's the best Church overall that I've found so far.

 

[Erose]

I think it's actually rather difficult for someone who has been raised in a multi-cultural, religiously plural society to accept the idea of absolute truth. Add to that social pressure to conform to the majority opinion (increasingly at odds with traditional morality) and I can easily see how people want to stick with the familiar (such as staying Catholic) while at the same time opposing certain beliefs the Church holds.

I was raised Protestant. When I was a seeker my mom told me that I would never find the perfect church, and that if I did, I shouldn't join it because I would mess it up! She said what was important was to find a church that preached the gospel and that I could feel at home in. I've kept that sentiment more-or-less intact. I don't agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings, but it's the best Church overall that I've found so far.

Are you open to learning more about your faith or are you set and not bulging?