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Why do the OT and NT contradict so much?

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R3quiem

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I try hard to be a Christian, because I like Christ and his teachings, but I think the Old Testament is terrible. The OT is so full of killing and suffering at God's hands, that it is hard to understand how he can be considered loving when he solves so many problems through warfare. Christ on the other hand, preached love and kindness, but it's hard for me to believe any of it because he based all of his teachings on the OT. I'm going to post a few of the verses in the OT that are very cruel, and I would like for anyone to tell me what they think of them, and explain how they line up with the teachings of Christ. I ask this not to debate, but to understand.


Deuteronomy 13
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

Joshua 10
29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho. 31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. 32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army—until no survivors were left.
34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.
36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.
38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Hosea 13
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

 

Epiphoskei

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We often look at the Old as a book of severity and the New as a book of mercy, because that is how we have been taught to read them, but let us not forget that the Old is filled with as much mercy as the New, and there is a severity in the New not unlike the Old. The deaths of Annas and Sapphira and Herod for sins against God in Acts spring to mind.

And, although it doesn't mesh well with our typical image of Christ, let us not forget that his axe is already at the roots of the trees of evil fruit, an he will burn the chaff with unquentiable fire.
 
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PaladinValer

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Here's a hint:

Stop reading like everything happened exactly as depicted.

Good example: God killing all humanity in the Deluge except for Noah...no proof of the story actually happening. It is a myth: a story meant to teach a religious or moral truth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I try hard to be a Christian, because I like Christ and his teachings, but I think the Old Testament is terrible. The OT is so full of killing and suffering at God's hands, that it is hard to understand how he can be considered loving when he solves so many problems through warfare.
Yepperz. Lots of "blood and gore" in the Bible. Everything in the LAW had to be purified with "blood". EGADS!!!

Zeph 1:14 The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. 15 That day [is] a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers. 17 "I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the LORD; Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like dung."

Reve 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, `Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God, 18 that ye may eat flesh of kings,
 
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R3quiem

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Here's a hint:

Stop reading like everything happened exactly as depicted.

Good example: God killing all humanity in the Deluge except for Noah...no proof of the story actually happening. It is a myth: a story meant to teach a religious or moral truth.
I don't believe almost any of it happened. I believe it's a story told after hundreds of years of hindsight and exaggeration.

Trying to stay away from debate here, but my point is that it is hard for me to believe Christ when I don't believe almost anything about the scriptures he put so much emphasis on. Do you see what I am saying?
 
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ToxicReboMan

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I think God was clearing the way for the Messiah. The Son of God was NOT to be born in a heathen society where the people would practice evil in their temples of idols. Or where the people would sacrifice their children in the 'high places'. That is what the ancient Canaanites were all about. They were an extremely lost people and God needed a holy society in which the Messiah could come in the flesh. This would come through the law of Moses. While not perfect, it was 100 times better than what was previously in the land.

All of those people that God commanded to be destroyed were evil lost people. They did sexual acts in their temples according to their 'gods'. They even sent their own children through the fire as a sacrifice to their 'gods'. That is why the siege of Jericho had to happen and did happen. It is not a myth. It was the be the 1st of many battles between the Israelites and the people of Canaan.


Christ is not a pacifist. We can see that through the OT and NT.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't believe almost any of it happened. I believe it's a story told after hundreds of years of hindsight and exaggeration.

Trying to stay away from debate here, but my point is that it is hard for me to believe Christ when I don't believe almost anything about the scriptures he put so much emphasis on. Do you see what I am saying?
:scratch: Btw, how much of revelation do you believe is fulfilled.?

JOHN 5:45 " No you be supposing that I shall be accusing/kathgorhsw <2723> (5692) of ye toward the Father. Is the one accusing/kathgorwn<2723> (5723)of Ye-- Moses, into whom you have relied. 46 For if ye believed to Moses, ye believed ever to Me. For about of Me that one Writes. 47 If yet to the, of that one, Writings not ye are believing, how to My declarations/rhmasin <4487> ye shall be believing?"

Reve 12:10 And I hear great sound in the Heaven saying: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser/kathgoroV <2725> of the brothers of us, the one accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) them in sight of the God of us, of day and of night.
 
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R3quiem

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:scratch: Btw, how much of revelation do you believe is fulfilled.?

JOHN 5:45 " No you be supposing that I shall be accusing/kathgorhsw <2723> (5692) of ye toward the Father. Is the one accusing/kathgorwn<2723> (5723)of Ye-- Moses, into whom you have relied. 46 For if ye believed to Moses, ye believed ever to Me. For about of Me that one Writes. 47 If yet to the, of that one, Writings not ye are believing, how to My declarations/rhmasin <4487> ye shall be believing?"

Reve 12:10 And I hear great sound in the Heaven saying: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser/kathgoroV <2725> of the brothers of us, the one accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) them in sight of the God of us, of day and of night.
I can't say I believe much about anything.

Like I said in the original post, I try to be a Christian. I'm not very good at the believing aspect though- I'm more of an Agnostic or Christian Seeker than a true Christian. I have a Catholic icon because I attend Catholic Mass regularly.

I just try to gather as much information as possible and see how it fits together.
 
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ToxicReboMan

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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11
 
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PaladinValer

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I don't believe almost any of it happened. I believe it's a story told after hundreds of years of hindsight and exaggeration.

It wasn't that many years.

Trying to stay away from debate here, but my point is that it is hard for me to believe Christ when I don't believe almost anything about the scriptures he put so much emphasis on. Do you see what I am saying?

Let this be your guide then:

1. Love your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

2. Love your neighbors as yourself
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I can't say I believe much about anything.

Like I said in the original post, I try to be a Christian. I'm not very good at the believing aspect though- I'm more of an Agnostic or Christian Seeker than a true Christian. I have a Catholic icon because I attend Catholic Mass regularly.

I just try to gather as much information as possible and see how it fits together.
I understand. Everything in the NT/NC has to harmonize with the OT/OC and I rarely go outside of Scriptures to interpret it.
Revelation is fascinating if you view it Covenantely. For example one way I view it is the OC Priesthood vs the NC Priesthood and I actually read it as Fulfilled for "Me". I also do a lot of translating and that appears to be where the Lord has led me personally but I do believe in the Whole Bible and into YHWH and His Christ. Thoughts?

Reve 19:20 and the Wild-Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea. 2 My might and melody is Yah And He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

Revelation 15:3 and They sing the Song of Moses, servant of the God/qeou, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, [O] Lord, the God/qeoV , the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,
 
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R3quiem

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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11
True, but we could also bring up the parts about loving and praying for your enemies.
 
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R3quiem

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It wasn't that many years.
The Old Testament was a very long and continual story written over a very long period of time.



Let this be your guide then:

1. Love your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

2. Love your neighbors as yourself
Well, for number 1, there's my original problem. If I don't know what God is actually like, whether he is destructive and warlike in the OT, or more gentle and loving as in the NT, or if he even exists, then what am I to base my love on?

For number 2, this is one of my favorite teachings by Jesus. Like I originally said, I really like Jesus and his teachings, especially those on morality.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by ToxicReboMan
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:11
:thumbsup: The "Zombie Squad" is one of my favorites!!! :)

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then He said to me, "Son of 'adam, these bones are the whole House of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

Reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath/pneuma <4151> of life from God entered them, and they stood/esthsan <2476> on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
 
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ToxicReboMan

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True, but we could also bring up the parts about loving and praying for your enemies.

And it would not contradict, because there is no verse that says do not pray for your enemies and do not love your enemies.
 
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R3quiem

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I understand. Everything in the NT/NC has to harmonize with the OT/OC and I rarely go outside of Scriptures to interpret it.
Revelation is fascinating if you view it Covenantely. For example one way I view it is the OC Priesthood vs the NC Priesthood and I actually read it as Fulfilled for "Me". I also do a lot of translating and that appears to be where the Lord has led me personally but I do believe in the Whole Bible and into YHWH and His Christ. Thoughts?

Reve 19:20 and the Wild-Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea. 2 My might and melody is Yah And He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

Revelation 15:3 and They sing the Song of Moses, servant of the God/qeou, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, [O] Lord, the God/qeoV , the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,
Revelation is one of the books of the Bible that I am extremely skeptical about because it is so different from the rest of the NT.

The rest of the NT contains the Gospel and the various letters written by Paul and others, but this is a book based around someone who claims to have had a revelation. Tons of people have revelations today, and I have to ask what makes this one more believable, besides the fact that it happened around the time the Bible was being assembled.
 
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ToxicReboMan

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:thumbsup: The "Zombie Squad" is one of my favorites!!! :)

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then He said to me, "Son of 'adam, these bones are the whole House of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

Reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath/pneuma <4151> of life from God entered them, and they stood/esthsan <2476> on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

LOL night of the living dead baby. Those hollywood movies are on to something. :D
 
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Daughter of His

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Here's a hint:

Stop reading like everything happened exactly as depicted.

Good example: God killing all humanity in the Deluge except for Noah...no proof of the story actually happening. It is a myth: a story meant to teach a religious or moral truth.

I totally disagree with this and I think that telling another person that God's word to us is a myth is dangerous.
 
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Fireinfolding

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I understand. Everything in the NT/NC has to harmonize with the OT/OC and I rarely go outside of Scriptures to interpret it.
Revelation is fascinating if you view it Covenantely. For example one way I view it is the OC Priesthood vs the NC Priesthood and I actually read it as Fulfilled for "Me". I also do a lot of translating and that appears to be where the Lord has led me personally but I do believe in the Whole Bible and into YHWH and His Christ. Thoughts?

Reve 19:20 and the Wild-Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea. 2 My might and melody is Yah And He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

Revelation 15:3 and They sing the Song of Moses, servant of the God/qeou, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and wonderful [are] Thy works, [O] Lord, the God/qeoV , the Almighty, righteous and true [are] Thy ways, O King of saints,

This always hit it for me, taking my correction from scripture God shows what He used and the Apostles tell how the Holy ghost teaches.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Not "natural things with natural" or "natural things with spiritual" but "Spiritual things with spiritual"

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory....

Pretty kool :thumbsup:
 
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R3quiem

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And it would not contradict, because there is no verse that says do not pray for your enemies and do not love your enemies.
I'm trying to keep debate at a minimum here.

Part of Psalm 139:
36 You broaden the path beneath me,
so that my ankles do not turn. 37 I pursued my enemies and overtook them;
I did not turn back till they were destroyed.
38 I crushed them so that they could not rise;
they fell beneath my feet.
39 You armed me with strength for battle;
you made my adversaries bow at my feet.
40 You made my enemies turn their backs in flight,
and I destroyed my foes.
41 They cried for help, but there was no one to save them&#8212;
to the LORD, but he did not answer.

42 I beat them as fine as dust borne on the wind;
I poured them out like mud in the streets.


The Psalms are kind of like prayers, and this one is thanking God for allowing him to destroy his enemies and to not have mercy on them. Sounds very different from a prayer in favor of an enemy.
 
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