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Why do some Christian's dismiss evolution?

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Smidlee

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LewisWildermuth said:
Neither I nor science said that natural selection was intelligent. But intelligence is not needed to form complex things. It is not needed for snowflakes, it is not needed to make us.
Oh no! Not the lame snowflakes argument.:doh: Snowflakes doesn't contain nothing in shape of information. Also snowflakes are cause when entropy increase. Nothing in a living cells are not build by increasing entropy. Water has extra energy stored which increase it buoyancy. When water turns into a solid releases this energy which causes ice to expand. When vapers expands in the air it attacts other drops which cause entropy to increase to form a large snowflakes.
There isn't nothing complex about a snowflakes just like there's nothing complex about water freezes in a pipe and burst it. So snow/ice has less bouyancy (and energy) than water which causes it to float of top even though it's colder and a solid.

So far science hasn't shown how it's possible for a snowman to come alive like Frosty the snowman.

While I agree 100% you can't put God in a test tube you can use science to determine if something is intelligent design or not which isn't nothing new. The only reason why people offend using intelligent design in biology is because of thier bias againest God. They know this is evidence points to a creator.
If intelligent design was used to determine life in space everyone knows the scientist would have no problem using it.
 
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stumpjumper

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Smidlee said:
While I agree 100% you can't put God in a test tube you can use science to determine if something is intelligent design or not which isn't nothing new. The only reason why people offend using intelligent design in biology is because of thier bias againest God. They know this is evidence points to a creator.
If intelligent design was used to determine life in space everyone knows the scientist would have no problem using it.

Allright everybody let's start over.

Can the Creationists who have posted in this thread answer for me these questions:

1.) That science is biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists want to disprove God not just use methodological naturalism).

2.) That the Bible is the Word of God and should be given more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation.

3.) That you actually have any evidence that the earth can not be 4.5 billion years old.

4.) That you actually have any scientific or other reason to believe that the earth can not be more than 10,000 years old.

5.) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should and must be interpreted literally.

6.) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith requires a literal interpretation of the critical parts of Genesis.

7.) That you have any real reason that a Christian should not accept the modern scientific understanding of our world.

Thanks

This thread has gone on odd sideroads and I want to direct it back to the issue at hand.
 
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Defiance

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shernren,

I know you quantified that statement saying "the majority" but I still can't help feeling offended.

I apologise, a hard day does that to me a lot, as a lack of sleep does that to others. :sigh:

I can't name you a single TE here who uses evolution to reject God. And atheists don't reject God because of evolution.

I wonder why not, cuz it would defeat the purpose of his intentions and belief...

Never said that atheists reject God because of evolution, they use evolution to justify their rejection of God because there is now a belief that says 'we don't need God and he wasn't necessary to create everything.' Do you understand what I am trying to get at? I hope so. :)

Any naturalistic scientific explanation can be used as an excuse for atheism, from evolution to gravity to nuclear fusion. Gravity says God is not necessary to hold the universe together. Nuclear fusion says God is not necessary to keep the sun burning. So why single out evolution?

Because we can observe that God is not needed for gravity to occur nor the sun to burn. However, none of these explanations carry over to origin... It is just saying that God is not necessary for the operation of the object/phenomema, but the explanation makes no hint or implication as to whether or not God is necessary for the origin of the object/phenomema. Can you see the difference?

"What are the chances of evolution producing something as magnificent as the human being unless God was involved?" And at any rate that's just a dodge question like "where did Cain get his wives" or "how did angels mate humans". I'd treat your proposed question the same way i would treat those questions: turn back to the cross. Evolution or creation, Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that is the crucial (literally!) fact that every person has to face up to.

True, but the inquisitive thinker may wonder why we sin and why Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. How would you answer their questions?

Not if you treat Genesis 1-2 as a mythological foundation for the Jewish worldview. You can ask around. Many people do that without losing their faith.

True, but many more have their faith weakened and most sadly eventually loose it.

Well, we don't have thaat many hominid fossils to work with in the first place so it's not surprising that they don't make enough sense yet. (You do realize you're talking to someone who believes that God literally formed a literal Adam and a literal Eve in a literal Garden of Eden?) But for everything else, there's TO! http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html#CC200

So, let me get this straight. Do you believe that God created as he said, except he used billions of years? :confused:

Really? Mutations produce new information, such as with the much-loved nylon bug.

Research has shown that the correct explanation for the nylon-eating enzyme produced on the plasmids is somewhat different from the previous two paragraphs. It also confirms that the frameshift idea is totally wrong. Rather, there seems to be a special mechanism that recombines parts of the genes in the plasmids in a way that is non-random. This is shown by the absence of stop codons, which would be generated if the variation were random

I didn't learn evolution from the textbooks. I learnt it online. And I've never seen Haeckel's embryos in my bio textbook. Hmm?

What do you know...

Well they are still in biology textboks in stores because I saw them under 'evidence for evolution' - occassionally I have a look in them and see what they are brainwashing kids with. I would much more prefer it if the students were taught the areas in which evolution is under fire by evolutionists themselves!

Well, I'll be generous, but still about 70-80% of the creationist websites and creationist young people I've dealt with are rather ignorant on the scientific ramifications of their ideas

... and many TEs are rather ignorant on the biblical and theological ramifications of their ideas. ;) Some may, but your percentage rate is far to high.

I think it would be unfair for you to push your generalizations of the typical abrasive TE when dealing with one who's trying his best not to be. Okay?

Once again, I apologise.

In Christ,
Defiance.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Research has shown that the correct explanation for the nylon-eating enzyme produced on the plasmids is somewhat different from the previous two paragraphs. It also confirms that the frameshift idea is totally wrong. Rather, there seems to be a special mechanism that recombines parts of the genes in the plasmids in a way that is non-random. This is shown by the absence of stop codons, which would be generated if the variation were random

can you provide the paper URL's you saw this in please?
 
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Floodnut

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stumpjumper said:
Allright everybody let's start over.

Can the Creationists who have posted in this thread answer for me these questions:

1.) That science is biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists want to disprove God not just use methodological naturalism).

2.) That the Bible is the Word of God and should be given more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation.

3.) That you actually have any evidence that the earth can not be 4.5 billion years old.

4.) That you actually have any scientific or other reason to believe that the earth can not be more than 10,000 years old.

5.) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should and must be interpreted literally.

6.) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith requires a literal interpretation of the critical parts of Genesis.

7.) That you have any real reason that a Christian should not accept the modern scientific understanding of our world.

Thanks

This thread has gone on odd sideroads and I want to direct it back to the issue at hand.
Can the evolutionists on this board answer these questions:
1) That science is not in fact generally biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists believe that God is disproven and the only thing left is methodological naturalism).

2) That the Bible is not uniquely the Word of God, a true revelation, and should not be given any more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation, like the prophets Hawking, Gould, and Darwin and their infallible understanding of the Universe.

3) That you actually have any evidence from an eyewitness that the earth must be 4.5 billion years old.

4) That you actually have any scriptural or other reason to believe that the earth must be more than 10,000 years old.

5) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should not be and must not be interpreted literally, but rather as a vague up for grabs allegory, contrary to the simple manner in which Jesus approached it.

6) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith has any basis or meaning apart from a literal interpretation of the critical and foundational parts of Genesis.

7) That you have any real reason that a Christian should accept the modern scientific understanding of our world, which in general does away with the need for God, the need for redemption, the need for a Savior, the origin of death, and the hope of a new heavens and a new earth.

OF Course these are no more questions than were the original assetions of stumpjumper in favor of Evolution, masquerading as sincere questions.
 
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shernren

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Once again, I apologise.

'Sokay. Was just hoping to make myself clear. I might have been overbearing. But I'm glad that's out of the way. :)

Because we can observe that God is not needed for gravity to occur nor the sun to burn. However, none of these explanations carry over to origin... It is just saying that God is not necessary for the operation of the object/phenomema, but the explanation makes no hint or implication as to whether or not God is necessary for the origin of the object/phenomema. Can you see the difference?

Hmm AiG's "origin vs. operational" distinction. It is actually quite deceptive in the light of modern science. Basically no event can be observed in the present. Because observed information can only travel at the finite speed of light, any observed event has happened in the past and cannot therefore be directly verified. Because of this, all science can be considered as operating as "origins science" trying to observe and pin down past events, the upshot being that all science is uncertain and malleable. I hope you get what I mean. If you want further elaboration I could open yet another thread on this.

I wonder why not, cuz it would defeat the purpose of his intentions and belief...

Never said that atheists reject God because of evolution, they use evolution to justify their rejection of God because there is now a belief that says 'we don't need God and he wasn't necessary to create everything.' Do you understand what I am trying to get at? I hope so. :)

I understand. At the same time any naturalistic theory can be used to justify rejecting God. For example an atheist could jolly well point to the passages in the Bible that says God controls the weather. Then by pointing to the advancement of modern meteorogical science he could say that "God doesn't control the weather, the Coriolist force and convection currents and all do."

That is the exact same argument that evolutionists use. And the counter is exactly the same: there is nothing wrong with God using natural laws to create a natural universe.

True, but the inquisitive thinker may wonder why we sin and why Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins. How would you answer their questions?

By pointing to current, personal sin, instead of original sin. We sin all the time. Jesus never sinned so He was perfectly worthy to die for us on the cross. Let them worry about the intricacies of federal headship and the Virgin Birth when they're in the faith.

True, but many more have their faith weakened and most sadly eventually loose it.

And many are turned away before they even start seeking by the militant ignorance some creationists display.

So, let me get this straight. Do you believe that God created as he said, except he used billions of years? :confused:

No but I'm sure there are some (OEC) here who do. To be specific, I believe that God directly created life (rejection of abiogenesis), allowed it to evolve (acceptance of general evolution) and then chose a pre-human hominid and directly shaped it into Adam and Eve (rejection of hominid evolution). I know it's quite a patchwork but it's been extremely useful for my faith.

Research has shown that the correct explanation for the nylon-eating enzyme produced on the plasmids is somewhat different from the previous two paragraphs. It also confirms that the frameshift idea is totally wrong. Rather, there seems to be a special mechanism that recombines parts of the genes in the plasmids in a way that is non-random. This is shown by the absence of stop codons, which would be generated if the variation were random

Have you read this site? http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm please do and tell me what you think.

... and many TEs are rather ignorant on the biblical and theological ramifications of their ideas. ;) Some may, but your percentage rate is far to high.

It depends. There are two kinds of TE: the first who were taught evolution in school, became Christian, and were never confronted by scientific creationism. For those I agree that they might be ignorant about the implications of TE. But frankly, I think that group of TEs is actually quite small, due to the quite active propagation of scientific creationism especially among First-World Christianity.

Secondly are the TEs who were confronted with, or actually believed in and proposed for a time, scientific creationism. I think it would be impossible for a TE to read through and understand scientific creationism and reject it without being aware of the difficulties and solutions of the TE position.

can you provide the paper URL's you saw this in please?

It's from the most recent AiG article on the nylon bug. http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i3/bacteria.asp?vPrint=1 answered here http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/apr04.html . Happened to be working on this at the Teens forums too.
 
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QuantumFlux

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Hi, I'm new to the forums but bare with me if i seem to have repeated something that has already been said.

I think many christians take the wrong angle in defending Creationism over Evolution. They tend to scrap for evidence to support creationism rather than pointing out the obvious flaws in Evolution.

Evolution is not being taller as many would claim how our species has grown. To a degree it is, such as being labeled micro-evolution, but it more pertains to a monkey becoming a man, or a reptile becoming a mammal or a bird. The evolutionary theory also involves the origin of the species, though some would claim that it doesnt, it obviously has to, the whole point is that everything evolved from something, single cells or other wise.

Macro evolution (or the evolution that would turn say a reptile into a mammal) is a major part of the evolutionary theory. The following is why i dont understand why people consider it fact:

1. NO, none, zero, nadda macro evolutionary fossils have ever been found for any species or cross species despite millions of dollars of archeological digs.

2. Evolution has never been seen. Some may say it would be impossible to see since it takes thousands and/or millions of years for something to evolve, however in the past 6000 years of history, nothing is written about anything cross species.

3. The cambrian period is not a period that evolutionists like to talk about. It has what many referr to as the "Cambrian Explosion". It is dubbed that because pre-cambrian period you find little more than worms and sluggs, very undeveloped life forms, then in a compact period of time, BAM you see fully formed crabs and insects and other fully developed life forms. One could say that we merely havent found the fossils yet, however, if you do your research you find even the top evolutionists saying that its highly improbable that they wouldnt have found some in all the digs they have done.

4. The origin of the species sounds something like this: "in an unknown substance, in an unknown atmosphere, under unknown conditions, an unknown living substance was created" Im sorry, how is that scientific again?

On that same subject, lets say of the off chance that these specific chemicals happened to bond at the specific temperature and happened to create the components for a cell and lets say on the astronomical chance that they did get together, do you know what they would form? A dead cell, it wouldnt be alive. It would be the equivalent of taking an arm and legs and torso and a head and sowing them together, yes you have a body, but it sure isnt alive nor do you have any means to make it so.

So the evolutionary theory is left without a leg to stand on. Not only is it lacking critical evidence to support it, it actually has some very damaging evidence against it.

Some might say that if you just look around you can see that the earth is old with the new methods of dating and what not. I see only a simple explaination for that. God created a mature earth. He did plant seeds in the garden of eden, he made them so as to bare fruit. He didn't rock adam and eve to sleep until they were of age, he created fully developed adults. It only makes sense that he created the rest of the universe under the same principle, in order for us to use it and live in it, it had to be created mature.

Let me throw in another analagy for understanding. I'm some what of a coder so i use programming alot because it seems to work well. If anyone plays halo at all you know its a game and that it was probably created within a years time however, if you were master cheif you look around the environments that the programmers created and you can see hills and valleys and eroded things. Master cheif (the player in the game) would look around and say this planet has obviously been here for more than a year and would make this assumption based on the things around him that he sees such as the erosion and other cleaverly coded realistic land scapes. But in reality it was created within a year.

Do i believe he planted fossils in the ground to fool us? no, i dont believe he planted them there at all. Misconceptions about fossils is wide spread, maybe believe they take millions of years to form when in fact they only take thousands. Also, not every bone forms a fossil, they have to be buried in some way in order to form fossils, they cant just naturally be covered over and then become fossils. If you study the specifics of the world wide flood you find a very rational explaination of how that many fossils could be made in the different layers.

if i missed something about evolution let me know.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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spend a little time and read back through some of the threads.
you are posting well refuted PRATT's

2. Evolution has never been seen. Some may say it would be impossible to see since it takes thousands and/or millions of years for something to evolve, however in the past 6000 years of history, nothing is written about anything cross species.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

or spend some time at:
http://a9.com/"recent speciation events"

if i missed something about evolution let me know.
pretty much missed it all.....
get up to speed on the science with a good book like:
Where Do We Come From?: The Molecular Evidence for Human Descent by Jan Klein, Naoyuki Takahata

...
 
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shernren

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Hi! Welcome to Christian Forums! I hope I don't turn you off with my answer, heh. ;) I hope I don't sound like I'm bullying you but we'd classify a lot of this post as "PRATTs" - Points refuted a thousand times. But to save me some preliminary work - have you ever visited TalkOrigins.com? Because they'd be able to quite conclusively answer this section of your post pertaining to biology.

1. NO, none, zero, nadda macro evolutionary fossils have ever been found for any species or cross species despite millions of dollars of archeological digs.

/* snip */

So the evolutionary theory is left without a leg to stand on. Not only is it lacking critical evidence to support it, it actually has some very damaging evidence against it.

As for the rest, that lies under the category of Christian philosophy and the nature of the old world. Specifically:

1. The world was created mature, and
2. The world was created with an illusion of age.

You said that God would not plant fossils in the ground to fool us, and yet on a fundamental level both the assertions above do say, in one way or another, that God "fixed" this world to fool us. Firstly, we must distinguish between appearance of age and appearance of history. The easiest way to distinguish this is in Adam. Adam was created a typical adult male human. He had an appearance of age. Yet as far as our theology holds he did not have a navel. This is because he never underwent the event of having an umbilical cord. That is appearance of history. If Adam had appearance of history he would have had a navel although he never had an umbilical cord. That would be pretty strange of God to do, to say the least.

In the same way, we don't object to the Earth's appearance of age. What we do object to is its appearance of history. For example, there is a big meteorite impact crater which we can reliably date to 65 million years ago which caused the K-T boundary. Would God have created the impact crater and the K-T boundary as if something had happened to cause it, but actually had not?

Because God is completely self-consistent, any action He undertakes and any creation He creates must reflect His character in some way. What does a deceptive appearance of history reflect about God's character?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Some might say that if you just look around you can see that the earth is old with the new methods of dating and what not. I see only a simple explaination for that. God created a mature earth. He did plant seeds in the garden of eden, he made them so as to bare fruit. He didn't rock adam and eve to sleep until they were of age, he created fully developed adults. It only makes sense that he created the rest of the universe under the same principle, in order for us to use it and live in it, it had to be created mature.

this is the philip gosse's omphalos argument, it is at least 150years old, it was rightfully dismissed when he first proposed it. here we often refer to the difference between Adam's scars and apparent age. Scars or a history, for instance, a fall and a cut knee and the memories to match is deception leading to a trickster god.

but fundamentally the issue is philosophic with Decartes demon, brains in the vat, last thursdayism some of the terms you can google to get up to speed on what is a dead end into solipicism.

.....
 
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Defiance

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gluadys

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Floodnut said:
Can the evolutionists on this board answer these questions:
1) That science is not in fact generally biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists believe that God is disproven and the only thing left is methodological naturalism).

This actually presents a false dichotomy. Methodological naturalism and belief in God are compatible. Christian scientists (and other theists as well) believe in God and practice methodological naturalism as that is the method for doing science.

Philosophical naturalism is incompatible with Christian belief, as philosophical naturalism is the assertion that only what we can describe using scientific method (i.e. methodological naturalism) is real. That is not an assertion wedded to methodological naturalism. It goes beyond using a method to making a philosophical claim that is not required by the method.

Most scientists, even atheists, do not believe that God is disproven, because they are aware that it is impossible to do so using scientific methods.


2) That the Bible is not uniquely the Word of God, a true revelation, and should not be given any more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation, like the prophets Hawking, Gould, and Darwin and their infallible understanding of the Universe.

I have never heard TEs claim that anyone has infallible understanding of the universe. That is one reason it is said again and again that science rests on evidence, not on proof, and is always subject to revision when new evidence turns up.

But it is true that the bible is not uniquely the Word of God. It is derivative from and dependant on the unique Word of God who is the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, made manifest to us in Jesus Christ.

The bible is a true revelation, but it is not the unique revelation of the Word of God. Creation is also a true revelation (and also derivative from and dependant on the unique Word of God, the Logos which created it in the beginning.)

The only form of the Word of God which is above all the derived and dependant forms is the Logos who is God. Every other revelation leads back to the Logos, the Creator. No other revelation is uniquely the Word of God, since the Word/Logos existed prior to every other revelation.


3) That you actually have any evidence from an eyewitness that the earth must be 4.5 billion years old.

Not needed since we have the evidence. Apparently you do not understand the difference between observation and evidence.

4) That you actually have any scriptural or other reason to believe that the earth must be more than 10,000 years old.

We have compelling evidence that the earth is definitely more than 10,000 years old.

5) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should not be and must not be interpreted literally, but rather as a vague up for grabs allegory, contrary to the simple manner in which Jesus approached it.

We don't know how Jesus approached it. And, yes, there is reason to believe that Gen. 1-11 is not literal history.

6) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith has any basis or meaning apart from a literal interpretation of the critical and foundational parts of Genesis.

I see no reason why believing in Jesus must rely on a literal interpretation of Gen. 1-11. The important lessons of Genesis in regard to creation, the fall from innocence, the need for redemption, the judgment of God and the persistance of sin are all just as well taught through story as through history.

7) That you have any real reason that a Christian should accept the modern scientific understanding of our world, which in general does away with the need for God, the need for redemption, the need for a Savior, the origin of death, and the hope of a new heavens and a new earth.

Again, a false dichotomy. Modern scientific understanding does not have these consequences. You are reading into science things science does not comment on.
 
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gluadys

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QuantumFlux said:
Hi, I'm new to the forums but bare with me if i seem to have repeated something that has already been said.

You are. As others have noted, you are repeating common PRATTS most of us have seen many times. However, perhaps you would like some information about them.

I think many christians take the wrong angle in defending Creationism over Evolution. They tend to scrap for evidence to support creationism rather than pointing out the obvious flaws in Evolution.

It is often asserted that evolution has obvious flaws. Yet these flaws are not obvious to scientists, including those scientists in the field who are Christian. In fact, the so-called flaws more often reveal flaws in a person's understanding of evolution and/or in their unawareness of the volume of evidence which supports evolution.

Evolution is not being taller as many would claim how our species has grown. To a degree it is, such as being labeled micro-evolution, but it more pertains to a monkey becoming a man, or a reptile becoming a mammal or a bird. The evolutionary theory also involves the origin of the species, though some would claim that it doesnt, it obviously has to, the whole point is that everything evolved from something, single cells or other wise.

Every living thing evolved from something as every living thing had parents and grandparents and great-great-grandparents in a lineage that stretches back billions of years. Obviously, at some point there was a first living species which did not owe its origin to a biological lineage. But the theory of evolution does not touch on non-biological origin. Non-biological origin is called abiogenesis (i.e. life from non-life). It is a related but separate scienctific investigation.

Macro evolution (or the evolution that would turn say a reptile into a mammal) is a major part of the evolutionary theory. The following is why i dont understand why people consider it fact:

1. NO, none, zero, nadda macro evolutionary fossils have ever been found for any species or cross species despite millions of dollars of archeological digs.

This is where you display lack of information about the volume of fossil evidence which supports evolution. There are actually a great many fossils which meet the scientific criteria of intermediate or transitional fossils. In fact, strictly speaking, every fossil is an intermediate or transitional fossil, since it is always somewhere between its ancestors and its descendants. The only case in which this would not apply is if the fossil were the last of its species. However, we have no way of knowing this about any particular fossil.

Because fossilization is rare, and because many species (and even genera and whole families) have no fossil record, there are many occasions when a fossil we would like to have is simply non-existant. Also there are many fossils which are not accessible to us or have not been discovered yet.

However, there is enough solid evidence for evolution, that we can know it happens and has been happening for a long time, even if we had not a single fossil. Fossils are welcome and interesting additional evidence for evolution, but not necessary evidence.


2. Evolution has never been seen. Some may say it would be impossible to see since it takes thousands and/or millions of years for something to evolve, however in the past 6000 years of history, nothing is written about anything cross species.

Well, yes it has been seen. Of course, only in short-lived species and only in the last century when scientists began looking for it. Evolution takes generations, not necessarily years.

As for cross-species, what do you mean by that? I think this is an indication of lack of information about what evolution is. It is not about crossing species. It is about splitting a single species into two or more species. Or about one species changing over time until it is a different species.

I often find that neophytes disputing evolution are looking for saltations that go far beyond species differences. They seem to want an example of a change from one family to another or even one order to another within a human life-time. Evolution does not work that way. Species will produce new species, never something so totally different as to be in a different family or order. (Note that I am using the terms "species", "family" and "order" in the Linnaean sense.)

3. The cambrian period is not a period that evolutionists like to talk about.

Do you know this because you asked them? I think you are repeating something you have not checked out. The Cambrian period is very interesting to any paleontologist. Niles Eldredge, a prominent evolutionary scientist, did most of his research on trilobites, one of the common arthropods of the Cambrian.

It has what many referr to as the "Cambrian Explosion". It is dubbed that because pre-cambrian period you find little more than worms and sluggs, very undeveloped life forms, then in a compact period of time, BAM you see fully formed crabs and insects and other fully developed life forms. One could say that we merely havent found the fossils yet, however, if you do your research you find even the top evolutionists saying that its highly improbable that they wouldnt have found some in all the digs they have done.

Are you saying that worms and slugs and amoebas and bacteria are not fully-formed viable life forms? They seem to do very well, in our day as in ancient times. But it is true that most of them did not have shells which would fossilize.

btw, are you aware of how many familiar plants and animals did NOT exist in the Cambrian? No land dwellers of any kind, either plant or animal. Probably no multi-cellular algae such as kelps. No vertebrates, including fish, which did not appear until the next period (Ordovician) and did not become common until the Devonian.

Even the very many shelled creatures found in the Cambrian, are quite unlike the shellfish of today.

4. The origin of the species sounds something like this: "in an unknown substance, in an unknown atmosphere, under unknown conditions, an unknown living substance was created" Im sorry, how is that scientific again?

That is not the origin of species. That is the origin of life. Of course, the first living population was a species, but when we speak of the origin of species, we are usually referring to speciation i.e. the splitting of one existing species into two species. So the first origin of species would be when the first population of living things divided into two separate populations with genetic differences great enough to mark them as separate species.

As for the origin of life, not everything is so unknown as you think. We do know some of the conditions required for a natural abiogenesis e.g. that the atmosphere contained relatively little oxygen, that amino acids were present (possibly from comets or meteors, possibly formed through natural terrestrial chemical processes). You might also check out thermoproteins (aka protocells), hypercycles and RNA world.

On that same subject, lets say of the off chance that these specific chemicals happened to bond at the specific temperature and happened to create the components for a cell and lets say on the astronomical chance that they did get together, do you know what they would form? A dead cell, it wouldnt be alive. It would be the equivalent of taking an arm and legs and torso and a head and sowing them together, yes you have a body, but it sure isnt alive nor do you have any means to make it so.

Totally wrong information. In the first place you are assuming that the first living things would be cells. In fact, the first living things would have to be much simpler than cells.

So the evolutionary theory is left without a leg to stand on. Not only is it lacking critical evidence to support it, it actually has some very damaging evidence against it.

As I said, most so-called flaws in the theory of evolution generally turn out to be flaws in a person's information or understanding. This seems to be true in this case, as you apparently have little information about fossils and none on abiogenesis research. You also show lapses in understanding such as confusing evolution with abiogenesis and thinking that evolution has something to do with "cross species".

It only makes sense that he created the rest of the universe under the same principle, in order for us to use it and live in it, it had to be created mature.

This has been discussed in other threads. The chief difficulty with this assumption is that it robs the world of reality. Creation becomes a holodeck program. I can discuss this in more detail if you like.


If you study the specifics of the world wide flood you find a very rational explaination of how that many fossils could be made in the different layers.

But you don't find one that matches the actual distribution of fossils through the geological layers. Nor do you find an explanation for the actual strata.

if i missed something about evolution let me know.

You have missed almost everything about evolution.

Perhaps you would like to describe how you think evolution actually happens. That would be a good place to root out misconceptions.
 
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shernren

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Hey shernren,

It's from the most recent AiG article on the nylon bug. http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i3/bacteria.asp?vPrint=1 answered here http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/apr04.html .

Actually, rmwilliamsll, I got my information from the bottom of a feedback article under 'Ed. note, 9 April 2004' available here. It is the most up-to-date information on the topic.

God Bless. I'll get around to the rest shortly,
Defiance.

The editorial note references the article for which I put up the URL. Go read it for a clear example of log-in-the-eye syndrome, diagnosed for the last paragraph. See if you can spot all the non-commital words! Answer:

It seems clear that plasmids are designed features of bacteria that enable adaptation to new food sources or the degradation of toxins. The details of just how they do this remains to be elucidated. The results so far clearly suggest that these adaptations did not come about by chance mutations, but by some designed mechanism. This mechanism might be analogous to the way that vertebrates rapidly generate novel effective antibodies with hypermutation in B-cell maturation, which does not lend credibility to the grand scheme of neo-Darwinian evolution. Further research will, I expect, show that there is a sophisticated, irreducibly complex, molecular system involved in plasmid-based adaptation—the evidence strongly suggests that such a system exists. This system will once again, as the black box becomes illuminated, speak of intelligent creation, not chance. Understanding this adaptation system could well lead to a breakthrough in disease control, because specific inhibitors of the adaptation machinery could protect antibiotics from the development of plasmid-based resistance in the target pathogenic microbes.

And they say we don't have enough evidence for evolution.
 
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Floodnut said:
Can the evolutionists on this board answer these questions:

They're not questions! They're statements! Or something. Anyway.

Floodnut said:
1) That science is not in fact generally biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists believe that God is disproven and the only thing left is methodological naturalism).

Well, if you want to make out that all science is a massive God-bashing institution, I certainly can't get in your way.

Floodnut said:
2) That the Bible is not uniquely the Word of God, a true revelation, and should not be given any more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation, like the prophets Hawking, Gould, and Darwin and their infallible understanding of the Universe.

Let's go through that with a fine-toothed comb. Should be interesting.

-uniquely: I can't name a TE here who'll deny that the Bible contains unique advice and communication concerning salvation.
-the Word of God: Well people like Didas and gluadys would take exception to the phrase but all of us here acknowledge that the Bible fully reflects the will and knowledge of God pertaining to spiritual issues and salvation.
-a true revelation: again, no TE here will say the Bible lied. A myth is very very very different from a lie.
-should not be given any more weight: would you ask your pastor to fix your computer? If you want to take the Bible as a manual not just for the human condition but also for the universe's laws, be prepared for some weird results.
-than other forms of Divine Revelation: ah, so creation reveals something about God? So why make it out to be lying?
-like the prophets Hawkins, Gould and Darwin: you titled them. Not us. :)
-and their infallible understanding of the universe: (excepting Darwin) we do admire how they understand the universe, but we do not admire their complete lack of understanding of God. And just because we take their word on science doesn't force us to take their word on anything else.

Floodnut said:
3) That you actually have any evidence from an eyewitness that the earth must be 4.5 billion years old.

People can be charged and convicted for murder on purely circumstantial evidence. The age of the earth is far more trivial than that and the circumstantial evidence far more massive than a single trial could do justice to. (Punintended!)

Floodnut said:
4) That you actually have any scriptural or other reason to believe that the earth must be more than 10,000 years old.

Scriptural, maybe not. Others, a whole load. Do you have any scriptural or other reason to believe that you are not eating Jesus' actual flesh and drinking Jesus' actual blood during the Holy Communion?

Floodnut said:
5) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should not be and must not be interpreted literally, but rather as a vague up for grabs allegory, contrary to the simple manner in which Jesus approached it.

Just because Jesus approached the Parable of the Prodigal Son simply didn't mean that it was not a parable. What about the passages on slavery? Transubstantiation? Women in leadership? Baptism of the dead? Don't tell me you're playing pick and choose with Scripture too?

Floodnut said:
6) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith has any basis or meaning apart from a literal interpretation of the critical and foundational parts of Genesis.

7) That you have any real reason that a Christian should accept the modern scientific understanding of our world, which in general does away with the need for God, the need for redemption, the need for a Savior, the origin of death, and the hope of a new heavens and a new earth.

How does a modern scientific understanding of our world do away with all these?

People need God, need to be redeemed, and need a Savior because they have sinned, not because Adam has sinned. So too the new heavens and the new earth. And people only fear death because their eternity will be hell without God - in a perfect world death would be very different.

And your question 6 very strongly but incorrectly implies that every evolutionist is a non-Christian.

Floodnut said:
OF Course these are no more questions than were the original assetions of stumpjumper in favor of Evolution, masquerading as sincere questions.

I hope I have answered sincerely enough for you to consider my answers well.
 
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stumpjumper

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Floodnut said:
Can the evolutionists on this board answer these questions:

You didn't answer my questions but I'm a good sport so I'll give yours a go.

1) That science is not in fact generally biased against God. (ie. I mean that all or even most scientists believe that God is disproven and the only thing left is methodological naturalism).

It most certainly is not on the whole. Have you ever read some of the more modern scientists that embrace theology (Kenneth Miller, John Polkinghorne, Peacocke, Michael Ruse in a round about way, etc) or theologians who embrace modern science (John Haught, Karl Rahner, Pope John Paul II, Etc)

2) That the Bible is not uniquely the Word of God, a true revelation, and should not be given any more weight than other forms of Divine Revelation, like the prophets Hawking, Gould, and Darwin and their infallible understanding of the Universe.

I might actually call Hawking and Darwin prophets of science but I don't remember reading about them in the Bible. I do believe the Bible was uniquely inspired. I just don't view it as saying the things that we expect modern science to tell us about our world. The Bible is a book of faith and it will bring you closer to God. To quote Gallileo "The Bible tells us how to get to heaven; not how the heavens go." To find argument over our biological origin when the issue our ontological origin and our human relationships with each other and God is trivial.

3) That you actually have any evidence from an eyewitness that the earth must be 4.5 billion years old.

Well floodnut do you have eyewitness testimony that Noah really bobbed up and down in the open sea?

The age of the earth is well established as being ancient. Well before the time of Darwin and radiometric dating, geologists disproved a global flood and a recent creation simply by examing the erosion of our natural world. Since then all natural evidence starlight 100,000+ light years away, supernovas that happened eons ago, all radiometric dating, extinct fossils, geological evidence for pangea, plate tectonics, evidence from previous ice ages (visit Boulder Fields on the edges of the wisconsin glacier and you will see the effects of things that happened long ago).

4) That you actually have any scriptural or other reason to believe that the earth must be more than 10,000 years old.

Well there is no starting date in Genesis. For other reasons see above.

5) That you actually have any real reason to believe that Genesis 1-11 should not be and must not be interpreted literally, but rather as a vague up for grabs allegory, contrary to the simple manner in which Jesus approached it.

Absolutely. Do you believe that the parables are records of real events? Is the Kingdom of Heaven a Vineyard or a Wheat field? Which one it can't be both.

6) That you have any reason to believe that belief in Jesus or witnessing the Christian faith has any basis or meaning apart from a literal interpretation of the critical and foundational parts of Genesis.

Absolutely yes. But I'm running out of time and that may be cause for a different thread.

7) That you have any real reason that a Christian should accept the modern scientific understanding of our world, which in general does away with the need for God, the need for redemption, the need for a Savior, the origin of death, and the hope of a new heavens and a new earth.

Science in no way does away with God. It only does away with a God that only works in gaps. The God I believe in works in all facets of our life and natural world. This last question is so full of strawmen I surprised it did not already combust.

What does evolution tell us about life? That novel things can and will emerge. So I think that "a new heavens and a new earth" is much more likely looking at our existence from the lense of and evolutionary past than a fall from a once mythical Garden of Eden. If you really believe we fell from a perfect paradise because of tasting a fruit, what makes you think anyone can ever expect that paradise returned? We are all in need of a savior. Jesus saves us from ourselves not the wrath of God.

Go for a hike in the woods and take a look at God's creation from the perspective of the already saved. You might be surprised to see that we are one part of a long and lovely story. It is the end that matters not where we began.
 
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gluadys said:
Most scientists, even atheists, do not believe that God is disproven, because they are aware that it is impossible to do so using scientific methods.

Amen. This is why most atheists rely on philosophy not science to defend atheism. Science is indifferent unless you take the science and imbed it within philosphical atheism like Richard Dawkins does in some of his books.
 
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