Why Do So Many Christian Marriages Struggle?

[DZoolander]

Yeah, I'm pretty fortunate in a lot of ways.

I work in software development - and I earn enough to cover all of that stuff without my wife having to work. I also have the ability (because my company likes me) to pretty much never miss any events for my kids. I get to go to all of their concerts, most of their events (during school time - meaning taking the time off from work to do it), only working from 9-5 and rarely if ever having to work overtime, etc.

So I've put more of a balance toward the family side of things - and I've had the ability to do it. As a consequence, though, I wouldn't say that I'm extremely "career driven". My experience has always been that people that work 9-5 aren't career driven. To be career driven means that you work overtime, are pretty much always there, make yourself available for that, etc...and you take the sacrifices that come along with that. I'm not really wanting to (or in a position to) make those kinds of sacrifices.

So it's a balancing act. I could make even more - but at what cost to my time with my family?

As it stands right now with 9-5 - I get to see my 3 year old son for about an hour per day before he goes to bed...and then I'm a weekend dad. My daughter - about 2-3 hours per day before bedtime/weekends. If I opted to be more career-driven - then I'd likely lose the time with my son altogether (except on weekends - but maybe even some of that) - and most of the time with my daughter.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm also very fortunate. Being able to have my work space within the house means that even though I work a lot of hours, I'm here when the little miss gets home from school, and I can work flexibly so that (for example) I can go and volunteer in her classroom every so often. Lots of working parents wouldn't have that flexibility. There are drawbacks, too, of course, but I value having close integration of my work and home life.

 

[DZoolander]

Yeah, so don't get me wrong. I'm totally in favor of women having equality with men in terms of work, salary, etc etc etc.

I just wince a little bit when I get the impression that there's this subtext of "Women were kept out of the working world for so long...and that's where the good stuff happens. That's where real fulfillment is found!" When in truth, the working world kinda sucks. lol

I totally get the whole "grass is always greener" thing - and how it plays into that. I mean there's a side of me that looks at the traditional women's role and has that "grass is always greener" reaction. I don't blame women for thinking that they missed out - because they WERE kept out - and "after all, why would they be kept out unless the good stuff was there - and those dastardly men were trying to keep them from it!" After all- there have been dastardly men.

But - I do sincerely think that it really IS just a case of "the grass is always greener". There's no magical fulfillment to be found in the workforce. People always point to the Steve Jobs's and Bill Gates's of the world - but those are very few. Those also were people that had personal lives that rarely would ever be described as "having it all" (if you count having fulfilled family lives as a part of it). For pretty much everyone else running around - I think it is exactly as I (and others) have described it.

 

[tall73]

Well, it depends what you think the purpose of education is. The education level of the mother (both parents, in fact, but particularly the mother) is one of the best indicators of long-term outcomes for the children of that household. So even if your wife never used her qualifications again, the likelihood is that her having them contributed to better health, educational, employment and social outcomes for your children. Is that not worth something?

That doesn't follow. To a large degree education level is a proxy for IQ, in that those with higher IQ tend to progress further in school. And there is a genetic component to IQ. Children with higher IQ's tend to have better outcomes.

So overall it makes sense that education level of parents correlates with better outcomes compared to those with less. But that doesn't mean that you can extrapolate that a particular person who had the ability to go but didn't would not also have a good outcome.

I doubt my wife would suddenly be unable to raise the children or function in society without her college experience.

 

[Paidiske]

@DZoolander, Yeah, I kinda disagree with you there. Even just speaking for myself, I've done different things; study, work part time, work full time, be at home full time. I know where the grass is greenest for me. And that is, hands down no argument, working full time.

Now that might not be true for everybody (and any "one size fits all" model of fulfillment is going to have problems), but having the freedom to do different things, to change if they're not working, and to put yourself in the situation that is best for you is really precious and important.

And that doesn't happen if we default to, well, women are going to have and raise babies, so they don't need an education and should be discouraged from working. (Nor does it happen if we shoehorn men into the wrong work for them, either).

@tall73, compare the outcomes your children have, to those of children with mothers of equal IQ but less education, and I think you'll find the statistics bear out what I said. Not that your wife wouldn't be able to raise children without a college education, but that they are likely to benefit from it nonetheless.

 

[ValleyGal]

You had blessings the vast majority of people have not and will not have. You were an outlier, not representative of what most people male or female can ever have--which was the point Zoolander made.

If people are not satisfied with their life, then they should set some goals and work towards them rather than wallow in the status quo. The Lord wants us to live an abundant life - and no, that is not a reference to monetary abundance; it has everything to do with investing in your life and your relationships, including how you use your aptitudes and talents to worship the Lord.

 

[tall73]

@tall73, compare the outcomes your children have, to those of children with mothers of equal IQ but less education, and I think you'll find the statistics bear out what I said. Not that your wife wouldn't be able to raise children without a college education, but that they are likely to benefit from it nonetheless.

a. outcomes as defined how? I would probably need to wait another decade to run that experiment.
b. again, I see little to suggest that is the case here. She is the type to study whether she is in school or not, and has read and studied way more out of school than she ever did in school'

 

[Paidiske]

Well, a quick google shows that increased maternal education is linked with better health and educational outcomes for children (across the world).

This article isn't a bad introduction to the topic: The Many Ways Mothers' Education Matters

 

[tall73]

Well, a quick google shows that increased maternal education is linked with better health and educational outcomes for children (across the world).

This article isn't a bad introduction to the topic: The Many Ways Mothers' Education Matters

Well they concede that it is a proxy for IQ, and the heritable nature of it right at the beginning of the article.

As to the higher income which they also note, doesn't apply here, as noted, because she didn't work. And that takes out the related factors of better schools, etc. due to the higher income. In fact it meant tens of thousands in debt, so less actual assets.

As to higher vocabulary, she was always a grammar nerd and had a higher vocabulary than most before ever going to college.

Also, their methodology of comparing people on welfare to professional people hardly seems to be a fair comparison on this point. A number of people on welfare have low IQ's that make it challenging to find a job, or mental handicaps etc. So the notion that this is a complete comparison for educational attainment is weak.

The cultural capital seemed to really be boiling down to much of what they conceded at the beginning. People with higher IQ's and higher income and class are more likely to visit the museum, etc.

And I doubt that the networking helped her much because we moved out of state immediately after.

 

[ValleyGal]

You have made a couple of references to agendas and bias in this thread. Would you mind being specific? I don't know of any men who are opposed to equality.

Anti-feminism and male/female "roles."

Regarding your bio, was there a husband/father involved? If you worked nights so you could be with him as a baby <4, when did you sleep and who watched the baby/child the 16 hours you were either working or sleeping? You say your work schedule allowed for him to spend time with family. You use the word "allowed" like that is preferable/equal to you spending time with him. Do you believe that is accurate? You volunteered hard and played hard... with your child in tow or was he being watched by others?

My ex husband/son's father ran away from home when he was only a few months old. He accused me of having an affair, which I did not. My family was involved in raising my child - it takes a village to raise one. When I was in school for a few months, my son attended daycare with his cousin, and the two of them remain close friends today, 20 years later. The times I was not with my child is when I was at work or when he was in preschool (and I slept while he was in preschool), or when I went dancing once a week. Other than that, he came with me where I went, including volunteering. When I say I volunteered and played hard, it was with my son, and all of it was important parts of socialization and enculturation.

"Allowed".... I believe that it is important for the village to raise the child. I have a family of origin and extended family who were significant in raising him with me until he was 12. Parenting does not happen in isolation.

I can't help but smell the judgement, with this line of questioning.

You see, whether you are a man or a woman you still only get 168 hours in the week. Figure 50 hours is gone if you work outside the home (prep, travel, actual work) and 56 hours for sleep. That leaves the average person approximately 62 hours total to get everything else done. You then have to subtract another approx 40 hours of time away from your child if you are working nights and sleeping during the day while he is awake. How much time to you have left with your child? You seem to be trying to make this a bias/prejudice issue against women, but in fact it is simply a numbers game regardless of whether you are the mom or the dad. If you had to work to live that is one thing. If you chose to work instead of spending that time with your child it is just that... a choice. If you chose to work to fulfill your needs instead of being with your child, you chose to allocate 50 hours a week to something that you set as a priority over your child.

Hours... they are all wrong. I worked a 4 on-5 off shift, and it was a 3/4 time fte. When I was on rotation, I would average about 6 hours of sleep a day - while he was at preschool. I did not compromise my time with my son, and he had a secure attachment with me.

You say that if I worked to live, that's okay, but if I worked instead of spending time with my child, that's a choice. For me, it would not matter. No parent can spend 100% of their time with their children, whether they work or not. I would still choose to work, but as shown, that does not necessarily affect quality of attachment. What affects quality of attachment is the quality of time you spend together.

Maybe that is your definition of "having it all", but as stated earlier, I don't think most men consider that as "having it all". Most men, who aren't trying to make excuses or dodge their responsibilities, recognize the sacrifice they need to make to support their family, which comes in the form of spending almost 50% of their waking lives away from their pre-school children and if they have to work an off shift they end up being weekend dads. The agenda here is truth, facts and reality. That is all.

Again, dads can have quality of time with their families every evening and weekend... plus, as you say, it's their "choice" to work extra hours away from their family. Why is it that you see men who work extra hours as a "sacrifice" a man must make for his family, but when a woman works outside the home when she doesn't have to (to live), it's a "choice"? You are not applying the same rules to women as you do to men, and that is the anti-feminist agenda I referred to earlier.

 

[Paidiske]

@tall73 This is about population level effects, though. It might not have been exactly so for your family, but on average, around the world, children do better the better educated their mothers are. And you can't say that's just about IQ when there are plenty of very intelligent but uneducated women, say, in Africa!

 

[tall73]

@tall73 This is about population level effects, though. It might not have been exactly so for your family, but on average, around the world, children do better the better educated their mothers are. And you can't say that's just about IQ when there are plenty of very intelligent but uneducated women, say, in Africa!

But that was my point to start with. That each person, not populations, must weigh their goals, including spiritual, work, family, etc. to see what would be best for them. For some people that education might not be best

And as I noted, and your own article pointed out much of it is about heritable IQ from the get-go. And as to Africa, I do not know why it would not apply if the higher IQ folks still tend to go to higher levels of education than those with lower, even if fewer overall go to college.

 

[Paidiske]

But that was my point to start with. That each person, not populations, must weigh their goals, including spiritual, work, family, etc. to see what would be best for them. For some people that education might not be best

Sure. I was just trying to get away from seeing the only benefit of education being what it contributed to in the workplace.

And as I noted, and your own article pointed out much of it is about heritable IQ from the get-go. And as to Africa, I do not know why it would not apply if the higher IQ folks still tend to go to higher levels of education than those with lower, even if fewer overall go to college.

My point is - two women. Equal IQ. One in the Democratic Republic of Congo and one in the U.S.A. Which do you think is going to have children with better outcomes? It's not all about IQ.

 

[tall73]

My point is - two women. Equal IQ. One in the Democratic Republic of Congo and one in the U.S.A. Which do you think is going to have children with better outcomes? It's not all about IQ.

And this says my wife should go to school why? Two women, one in the USA and one in the Democratic Republic of Congo have the same educational level, which is likely to have children with higher outcomes? The same problem applies.

And in some countries someone with higher education than someone in the USA might not do as well. But that has little to with the point of this thread.

Everything you choose to do takes time. If you commit large amounts of time to schooling or work, that takes time from other activities.

 

[Paidiske]

And this says my wife should go to school why?

I'm not saying anything about what your wife should have done or not done. My original point is that education has benefit beyond the workplace; working out what you want for your life and family ought to take that into account but doesn't dictate what you (plural) should do.

 

[Dave-W]

Well, it depends what you think the purpose of education is. The education level of the mother (both parents, in fact, but particularly the mother) is one of the best indicators of long-term outcomes for the children of that household. So even if your wife never used her qualifications again, the likelihood is that her having them contributed to better health, educational, employment and social outcomes for your children. Is that not worth something?

Absolutely it is.

 

[Dave-W]

What's expected of me as a guy? It's expected that I go to work and provide for my family. I don't have any issues with that - but it is expected. How free would a man be (socially) if he decided "Well, I've had about enough of that. It's not fulfilling. I think I'm going to give not working a shot?" Is that really any man's option?

Whether you find boring work fulfilling or not depends on your focus. If you are seeking to draw life from a job, you will be sorely disappointed. But if you are drawing your life from providing a decent living for your family, even a boring job can be fulfilling.

 

[mama2one]

Well, a quick google shows that increased maternal education is linked with better health and educational outcomes for children (across the world).

education isn't all about what one knows but how to find out what one doesn't know
remember one of my professors saying this ^

parents can use resources in the community, find educational activities, many free
i.e. most museums have free days

but it depends if the parents are able to find out about the educational opportunities avail. and if they have the means to attend

schools and libraries have summer reading programs
our school, independent of regular homework wants kids to read 20 min everyday, including summer but I know not every parent enforces it

reading to children is so important from a young age
unfortunately, many kids still do not even own a book or are able to get to libraries on a regular basis

 

[mama2one]

No parent can spend 100% of their time with their children
What affects quality of attachment is the quality of time you spend together..

I have never believed in the "it's the quality of time vs time"

when we adopted, it was recommended by several "adoption experts" for women to stay home with their kids and not return back to work immediately

we had already decided for me to be a SAHM but being with our child all day, everyday (until husband came home from work) from the time we adopted her until starting K was definitely of great value whether we were playing with playdoh, finger painting, or me reading her stories, etc

I also focused on her and did not worry about the house (so what if we got dust bunnies)

if I had put her in daycare to learn from peers, instead of an adult, me.....know that things would not have gone the same route

 

[Paidiske]

I also focused on her and did not worry about the house (so what if we got dust bunnies)

This is the quality bit, though. I read some research a while back that said that while my mother's generation worked outside the home less than mine, overall they spent less time one on one with their children than my generation. They were more focussed on various housework tasks and other things, and less on childhood development.

I can see some truth to that; I can remember my mother spending a whole day a week ironing; I myself couldn't tell you the last time I ironed something (for example)!