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Kurt Warner

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Most people, when they marry, are terribly ignorant or in denial about the many elements which are going to impact them in their marriages. Here's a list of some issues which are rarely considered and even if considered often ignored with magical thinking that everything will just work out.

1. Almost anytime a person starts their rationale for a decision with "I feel..." the foundation upon which that decision is being made is unstable. There is a common phrase going around, "Facts don't care about your feelings", and that is true. Despite an ever growing segment of our population which relies on their "feelings" to make decisions, it is not a healthy trend and will only accelerate misery. Our minds should govern our emotions and our minds should emulate the Spirit of God. The Fruit of the Spirit is borne of daily decision making not daily feelings.

2. Using God/Scripture to justify bad behavior/bad decisions. People want to feel good about the choices they make and if they can use God/Scripture to justify them they believe they have credibility. Unfortunately, upon closer scrutiny the context is often terribly distorted. People use all sorts of faulty reasoning/justification to avoid being wrong about a decision and God/Scripture in on that list as well.

3. Too much or too little infusion of psychology into a marital situation. Seems like people in the church can't figure out that we are multi-faceted creatures with many spheres of health: spiritual, medical, mental, relational etc. You can have someone who appears to be a modern day Apostle Paul in the church, but in their relationships is markedly dysfunctional. If and when the dysfunction comes out, people will often offer a one dimensional solution either psychological or spiritual. Or the person may simply be dismissed as being a "bad" person. Bottom line: if a person is exhibiting toxic or dysfunctional behavior in any area of their lives there is a reason and all possibilities should be considered both in the source of the problem and the solution as long as it is not in conflict with God's Word.

4. Expectations. This more than any other topic (outside of adultery and violence), can sink a marriage. Sadly, expectations are often not even discussed prior to engagement or marriage. Even if one or both start to see red flags they resort to excuse making rather than scuttle the marriage plans. Think about it. Conflict almost always has to do with what we expect from the situation and the other people in the situation. Sex, money, chores, in-laws, overall behavior, attitudes etc. When our expectations are not met, we become angry, disappointed and eventually resentful and bitter. The trick is determining if your expectations are unreasonable or if the other persons failure to meet your expectations is the legitimate source of the problem.

5. Natural consequences. Relationships are subject to them just like any other area of life, except that we often time promote the idea that they are not. The vows with which many of us were married indicate that we will endure and be committed as a couple during times of distress. Unfortunately, one partner will often times use the vows to emotionally blackmail the other to keep them from taking necessary steps to address dysfunctional behavior in the marriage. The vows assume that both parties are equally committed to the covenant and will work jointly to ensure its success. It is not a license for one person to shift daily responsibilities and burdens to the other out of convenience. There must be accountability within every context where people interact. Without it there will be inequity and exploitation. Relationships don't magically crumble. They crumble because of unaddressed dysfunction.

6. It doesn't always take two to tango. A popular notion is that both parties in a broken marriage are responsible. Certainly the case can be made that because we are all imperfect it would be silly to say that both parties don't bare blame, but that doesn't mean it is a 50/50 split. Often times the source of the dysfunction can be found primarily in one person. And often that person doesn't want to hear it because they can't handle the reality of the situation. In Christian marriages this can be especially brutal because the first course of action, which may last months or even years, is to pursue a spiritual solution or a unilateral change of behavior/approach on behalf of the more healthy partner. Meanwhile, the more unhealthy partner continues to function without accountability or potential consequence for their bad behavior. Commitment and accountability have been somewhat vilified in our culture, but are cornerstones of effective and healthy systems and relationships.

7. Time to grow up. Not understanding the emotional age of your partner BEFORE you get engaged/married can have devastating effects after. There are many individuals whose emotional growth is stunted in adolescence. They learn to compensate and project a more mature persona, but over time and under pressure they will resort to behavior which is more typical of a struggling teen-ager than a maturing adult. This breeds all kind of problems in the relationship and often morphs into a parent/child dynamic more than two equal adults. The "parent" can be accused of being controlling and even abusive by the "child" especially when the "parent" tries to hold the "child" accountable for their childish behavior. If this cannot be fixed the relationship is almost certainly doomed emotionally even if it survives legally.

The church bears a great deal of responsibility for the fact that the divorce rate among Christians is not much different than for non-Christians. We don't spend much time teaching our young people (and older people) what is required for a successful relationship and we avoid discussing the type of individuals who should be avoided. We mistake discernment for being judgmental and have foolishly bought into the notion of feelings before all else. The old women and the old men should be teaching the young, but what are they teaching them?? Are we simply passing on generational dysfunction or actual Biblical principles for how to be successful??
 

Kurt Warner

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Hello,

A combination of personal life lessons, formal education, 30 years in the mental health field and 32 years as a pastor. In search of fulfillment, people will talk themselves into and out of some amazing choices. It happens all too frequently in the church where truth, wisdom, accountability and support should be plentiful. Even if it is the individual has to be humble enough to listen.
 
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Micah888

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The old women and the old men should be teaching the young, but what are they teaching them??
You are right. At the same time, when a pastor agrees to conduct a wedding ceremony, it is his duty to sit down and talk about the meaning of a Christian marriage as well as determine the spiritual condition of the prospective husband and wife.

However, every Christian couple also has a personal responsibility to study God's Word and discover the biblical principles which apply to a marriage and a home.

There is also the possibility that the so-called *Christian* couple were not saved to begin with, or that one of them was an unbeliever. Which means that there would have been a built-in spiritual conflict from the start. Hence divorce. All personal problems are eventually spiritual problems.
 
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EmmaCat

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While this is interesting, it is also full of worries a marriage can do without.

When two are married under Christ, as we are, we rely on the Bible, and understand we are together under God.

A marriage, I have learned, is two people coming together with many same interests, and perhaps separate interests which makes us individuals.

I think perhaps too many folks try to dissect and rationalize a wonderful marriage that simply needs to be tended to with love and God.

Marriage is not that hard when you have a husband who walks with you with God.

All good things

Emmy
 
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mama2one

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The old women and the old men should be teaching the young, ?

we did go to the premarital counseling held by the church and each couple was matched up with a married couple
we had a book/questions to answer and we were at the couple's home for part of it
 
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mama2one

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one thing that think is important and of value for Christian marriage is to see other Christians married and staying married even despite struggles and hardships

so if everyone around you is married, think it is beneficial, good example, and more likely couples will work on their marriage/stay together

being married is not the easiest thing, especially for women
studies show married men are happiest, followed by single people (men and women), and married women are the least happy

women still do the lions share of housework, raising of kids, and often work outside the home as well
( have heard married working women say above ^; not referring to me)
 
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mkgal1

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While this is interesting, it is also full of worries a marriage can do without.

When two are married under Christ, as we are, we rely on the Bible, and understand we are together under God.
I believe this is an example of a one-dimensional response to a complex issue that he's bringing up in the OP (bullet #3). It takes more than the Bible-and loving God- to resolve a lot of dysfunctional beliefs/behaviors that we've all picked up along the way. To my mind....that's just not the purpose of the Bible.

Even individual growth and maturity is multi-layered....you add a whole other person and it more than doubles the complexity.
 
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mkgal1

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. It doesn't always take two to tango. A popular notion is that both parties in a broken marriage are responsible. Certainly the case can be made that because we are all imperfect it would be silly to say that both parties don't bare blame, but that doesn't mean it is a 50/50 split. Often times the source of the dysfunction can be found primarily in one person. And often that person doesn't want to hear it because they can't handle the reality of the situation. In Christian marriages this can be especially brutal because the first course of action, which may last months or even years, is to pursue a spiritual solution or a unilateral change of behavior/approach on behalf of the more healthy partner. Meanwhile, the more unhealthy partner continues to function without accountability or potential consequence for their bad behavior. Commitment and accountability have been somewhat vilified in our culture, but are cornerstones of effective and healthy systems and relationships.
I wanted to pull this out, because I think it's critical--and may be what's the single most damaging problem in the mainstream church.
 
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Kurt Warner

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While this is interesting, it is also full of worries a marriage can do without.

When two are married under Christ, as we are, we rely on the Bible, and understand we are together under God.

A marriage, I have learned, is two people coming together with many same interests, and perhaps separate interests which makes us individuals.

I think perhaps too many folks try to dissect and rationalize a wonderful marriage that simply needs to be tended to with love and God.

Marriage is not that hard when you have a husband who walks with you with God.

All good things

Emmy

Hello,

It is not a wonderful marriage which needs to be dissected, but a marriage that is struggling. It is, however, beneficial to the larger to body to understand why wonderful marriages are wonderful, which goes back to the older men and women teaching (mentoring) the younger.

Walking with God is absolutely life transforming for individuals as well as marriages and families. However, it does not explain why there are non-Christian marriages which are happy and functional and Christian marriages which are not. It would be easy to simply dismiss the "Christian" marriages which are struggling as not really "Christian", but that is both short sighted and one dimensional. It may well be that two hedonist people call themselves "Christians", but are so in name only, but there are many devout people who take their spiritual journey seriously who struggle in their relationships.

My OP is designed to help people understand that when there are struggles it reveals some kind of deviation from God's design and the consequences that go with it. When two people marry they bring everything from their past into it; broken pieces, missing pieces, mutated pieces and that can cripple both the individual and the marriage if not understood.

I'm glad you have a wonderful marriage and I hope you share the practical, every day reasons for it with others who also want to enjoy success.
 
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Kurt Warner

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I wanted to pull this out, because I think it's critical--and may be what's the single most damaging problem in the mainstream church.
Thank you for your response. As the church has been on the decline over the past 40 years its influence and credibility in the culture has diminished. Sadly, rather than trying to re-establish a Christ centric, no compromise presence, it has continued to mimic the culture, which has led to a dilution of what the church was intended to be. If Christ is lifted up, people will be drawn to Him. Too often in order to retain or increase numbers and finances, churches have morphed into social service agencies adopting the latest philosophies of the culture. Rather than stand as a stark contrast to the world's darkness and hopelessness, too many churches have become little more than a feel good social club.
 
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Kurt Warner

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I believe this is an example of a one-dimensional response to a complex issue that he's bringing up in the OP (bullet #3). It takes more than the Bible-and loving God- to resolve a lot of dysfunctional beliefs/behaviors that we've all picked up along the way. To my mind....that's just not the purpose of the Bible.

Even individual growth and maturity is multi-layered....you add a whole other person and it more than doubles the complexity.
Hello,

Thank you for your response. I believe that God's design is perfect, but the world we are born into and the parents who raise us are imperfect. The Bible is the foundation for many, many psychological principles for healthy living and healthy relationships, but it often requires taking those Biblical principles and examining them within the broad context of a person's life and relationships. There are many faithful people who love Christ and spend time in the Scriptures, but remain frustrated and hurting because they aren't able to identify the Biblical principles and/or break it down in a way that gives understanding to what is causing them difficulty. Churches need to do a much better job of helping people understand these dynamics rather than give them platitudes which leave people broken and actually may contribute to them leaving their faith system.
 
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mkgal1

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There are many faithful people who love Christ and spend time in the Scriptures, but remain frustrated and hurting because they aren't able to identify the Biblical principles and/or break it down in a way that gives understanding to what is causing them difficulty.
I agree. Are you familiar with a book by Peter Scazzero called, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality? The whole premise of the book is that unless we mature emotionally.....our spiritual growth is distorted. IOW....the two must go hand-in-hand or else we transmit our dysfunction onto the biblical text.
https://play.google.com/store/audio...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CODBkpyBpNsCFRZ6YgodmfQDGg


Churches need to do a much better job of helping people understand these dynamics rather than give them platitudes which leave people broken and actually may contribute to them leaving their faith system.
I couldn't agree with you any more! Absolutely.
 
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mkgal1

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Sin seems to be the major problem that we live with.

M-Bob
True.....but shouldn't that be the focus of our faith communities (healing our sin through the wisdom/power of the Holy Spirit)?
 
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Kurt Warner

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one thing that think is important and of value for Christian marriage is to see other Christians married and staying married even despite struggles and hardships

so if everyone around you is married, think it is beneficial, good example, and more likely couples will work on their marriage/stay together

being married is not the easiest thing, especially for women
studies show married men are happiest, followed by single people (men and women), and married women are the least happy

women still do the lions share of housework, raising of kids, and often work outside the home as well
( have heard married working women say above ^; not referring to me)

Hello,

Thank you for the response. Commitment is one of the cornerstones of marriage. It is why we exchange those vows. Individuals, couples and families go through seasons during their journeys and not all of them are pleasant, so it is important for us to see other couples weathering the storms and honoring the commitment to the covenant.

I am hesitant to generalize marital satisfaction without considering many more variables. I completely agree on a fair division of labor for a couple. It is bad behavior to expect one partner to shoulder a larger share of the daily burdens if that person is available to help. I am convinced that the feminist movement, especially the 2nd and 3rd wave of feminism has done untold damage to women and the men who try to interact with them. It may be that a wife is dissatisfied with their marriage because their husband is not honoring his role, but it may also be because they have been bombarded with messages designed to make them dissatisfied with their lives. The deception promoted by the culture is that women can have it all. This is a lie that men have understood for decades if not centuries. If you are going to be career driven and have children one or the other is going to get short-changed. That is true whether you are a man or a woman. I could go on and on about this issue, but life dissatisfaction is often generated as much by manufactured issues as real ones.
 
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Kurt Warner

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You are right. At the same time, when a pastor agrees to conduct a wedding ceremony, it is his duty to sit down and talk about the meaning of a Christian marriage as well as determine the spiritual condition of the prospective husband and wife.

However, every Christian couple also has a personal responsibility to study God's Word and discover the biblical principles which apply to a marriage and a home.

There is also the possibility that the so-called *Christian* couple were not saved to begin with, or that one of them was an unbeliever. Which means that there would have been a built-in spiritual conflict from the start. Hence divorce. All personal problems are eventually spiritual problems.

Hello,
Thank you for the response. Many Pastors lack the skill set to adequately assess the multitude of elements which are in play. Even if they have specialized training and try to address the issues, many couples will say what needs to be said to carry through with the marriage. It is our arrogance, fear, denial and misplaced hope that, despite the red flags being raised, all will be well. They are riding the high of the engagement, marriage plans and upcoming ceremony. Even if one of the two thinks it would be a good idea to wait, based on this newly identified info, they rarely say anything, instead opting to believe it will all work itself out. They don't won't to hurt the other person's feelings or have a fight. Often announcements have been made, churches reserved, invitations sent, plane tickets booked. It would just be too messy. It is much easier to believe that things will be better after the wedding.

Marriage counseling should be mandatory, it should happen before any marriage planning begins and the Pastor should feel a sense of responsibility to opt out of officiating a wedding which they believe is doomed to failure due in large part because of the couple's unwillingness to address the issues identified.
 
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Kurt Warner

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Sin seems to be the major problem that we live with.

M-Bob

Hello,

Thank you for your response. Sin is a destroyer. Sometimes the effects of sin are seen immediately and often they are played out over time. Sometimes we are the agent of sin and sometimes the recipient of other's sinful behavior. If we consider both sin of commission and sin of omission, we begin to understand how much of a hindrance it is to our health and vertical and horizontal relationships. Thankfully, the perfection of God and His mercy and grace are more than sufficient for us to overcome, but the sin nature/old man tries to hang on like grim death. Understanding not only the complexities of how sin plays out in our lives, but other factors like genetics and mental illness help us to unravel not only the causes of our dysfunction, but helps lead to a more comprehensive way to address it. Obedience to God is foremost because it sets the plate for fellowship with Him. Understanding His design and the reasons for it. Understanding the world and how it influences and impacts our minds. Understanding human development and mental health/illness and how it impacts our beliefs and behaviors. It truly is a lifelong journey and too often we just stumble along hoping things will get better, but not having much a clue about what is causing the dysfunction or how to address it.
 
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tall73

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Hello,
Thank you for the response. Many Pastors lack the skill set to adequately assess the multitude of elements which are in play. Even if they have specialized training and try to address the issues, many couples will say what needs to be said to carry through with the marriage. It is our arrogance, fear, denial and misplaced hope that, despite the red flags being raised, all will be well. They are riding the high of the engagement, marriage plans and upcoming ceremony. Even if one of the two thinks it would be a good idea to wait, based on this newly identified info, they rarely say anything, instead opting to believe it will all work itself out. They don't won't to hurt the other person's feelings or have a fight. Often announcements have been made, churches reserved, invitations sent, plane tickets booked. It would just be too messy. It is much easier to believe that things will be better after the wedding.

Marriage counseling should be mandatory, it should happen before any marriage planning begins and the Pastor should feel a sense of responsibility to opt out of officiating a wedding which they believe is doomed to failure due in large part because of the couple's unwillingness to address the issues identified.


I will second this. Even in cases where the couple during pre-marital counseling identifies and discusses red flag issues, lack of agreement on spiritual matters, issues of history or current issues which are likely to create pain and hurdles, they rarely consider delaying or cancelling marriage plans.

I have refused to marry people previously for the reason you cited, so that they would consider that the step they are taking requires agreement on some of the most basic spiritual principles to really function well.

But in most cases where it is not so severe that the minister should not conduct the wedding, you have to work with where they are at. Within that framework, once you have identified issues, you have to discuss possible ways to address them when they will come up, and prepare them for some of the difficulties.

Also, when there are large known difficulties it can be helpful to encourage them to seek further help if this is needed down the road.
 
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ValleyGal

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It is not a wonderful marriage which needs to be dissected, but a marriage that is struggling.
I disagree. I think we need to dissect successful marriages because if we don't, we have no idea what we are actually teaching the younger people.

However, it does not explain why there are non-Christian marriages which are happy and functional and Christian marriages which are not.
Dr. John Gottman did a lifetime of research into marital health and marital satisfaction. There are 7 principles that he has found based on 40 years of scientific research. The principles can be supported by scripture, but they are also effective in non-Christian marriages. I recommend his book if you are really interested in this subject.

Additionally, There is a lot of research out there that says traditional marriage counselling does not work. But Gottman's approach to marriage therapy is yielding some very successful results.

I completely agree on a fair division of labor for a couple. It is bad behavior to expect one partner to shoulder a larger share of the daily burdens if that person is available to help.
I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree with this.

I am convinced that the feminist movement, especially the 2nd and 3rd wave of feminism has done untold damage to women and the men who try to interact with them. It may be that a wife is dissatisfied with their marriage because their husband is not honoring his role, but it may also be because they have been bombarded with messages designed to make them dissatisfied with their lives. The deception promoted by the culture is that women can have it all.
I wholeheartedly and emphatically DISagree with this, and knew from the OP that you have an agenda.

Women absolutely can have it all, when they have a spouse who actually supports them to have it all. When a woman can't have it all is when her husband does not live up to his commitment, his vows, and his obligations to her and the home.

Sin is a destroyer. Sometimes the effects of sin are seen immediately and often they are played out over time.
Which is why this will never be enough:
Marriage counseling should be mandatory, it should happen before any marriage planning begins...
 
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