Why do people strongly dislike Christians?

[Josiah14]

originally posted by Tube Socks Dude



We don't take a dim view; for, we only see it as it really is. We see that the average person doesn't understand or relate to sin; therefore, he or she dismisses it as reality and thinks that Christians have this dim view. From a Christian perspective, we see you as spiritually depraved and undiscerning of the reality of sin; therefore, you can't really relate and see life as a product of something other than sin. To you, there is no sin but only bad things that should be either suppressed or seen as obstacles that don't dim humanity.

Despite sin, Jesus still loves us and redeemed us if we are willing to give your lives to Him for safe keeping. If it weren't for God's grace and mercy, you would truly see how defiled each of us were in this present world. Without His mercy and grace, we could truly see how bad things could be.



This has little to do with the psyche as it does our spiritual identity as humans. It would appear that you would think that the world without the thought of sin would somehow make the psyche better. IMO, hiding the reality only sets one up for the ultimate reality when death reveals the finality of the truth that you have hidden from yourself by suggesting that there is no sin.

This, I think, is a faulty view. The true view is that the Holy Spirit works everywhere trying to draw people back to God, who is Love. If you're living in Hell and sin, then, yes, your worldview will be negative because you will notice Hell everywhere. However, if you're living in Heaven (in Christ), you will see the positive aspects of life more clearly, and you will see that the entire world is being saved.

A true Christian should never have this negative perspective that other people are damned and throwing themselves into Hell. This is so arrogant. The true Christian attitude is to see the Spirit leading the lives of everyone around you to salvation, but then to look at yourself and say, 'but what have I done in cooperation with the Grace God has given me? I alone have given myself over to spiritual rebelliousness and, so, I need to focus on repentance most especially.'

You don't have to look hard to find someone who repents of a wicked act, even if that person is not a Christian. It is human to recognize your wrongs and turn from them. What is not human is to continue in your sins.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

Josiah14, Just a quick note to make sure you saw post 254 regarding the word aion.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

Josiah14, Just a quick note to make sure you saw post 254 regarding the word aion.

And one more thing, Josiah14. I'd like to share a post I composed two years ago here on C.F. where I argued for a qualitative definition of the word translated as "eternal" rather than quantitative. The link is HERE.

Thanks for the conversation. All the best to you.

 

[Kamrian]

I'm still relatively new here but I'd like to add my two cents.

I think that some people show fear or dislike of Christianity because of, as others have said, acts committed against people throughout the ages. Some Christians used to, back in the Middle-Ages and up until I'd say about half-a century ago, fight amongst themselves as well as other religions.

Another thing is the forced conversions that were made to happen when Christianity was being spread, the wanton violence and destruction of native religions and such is still in the minds, I am sure, of some neo-Pagans who practice older, pre-Christian religions.

I personally don't hate anyone, but I think that Christians of today should be aware of and strive to do better then some of the actions committed in the name of the Bible and Jesus throughout history.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm still relatively new here but I'd like to add my two cents.

I think that some people show fear or dislike of Christianity because of, as others have said, acts committed against people throughout the ages. Some Christians used to, back in the Middle-Ages and up until I'd say about half-a century ago, fight amongst themselves as well as other religions.

Another thing is the forced conversions that were made to happen when Christianity was being spread, the wanton violence and destruction of native religions and such is still in the minds, I am sure, of some neo-Pagans who practice older, pre-Christian religions.

I personally don't hate anyone, but I think that Christians of today should be aware of and strive to do better then some of the actions committed in the name of the Bible and Jesus throughout history.

Nice post! And welcome to CF

 

[Kamrian]

Nice post! And welcome to CF

Thank you! I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post but I felt that I should say it as it's my honest opinion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you! I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post but I felt that I should say it as it's my honest opinion.

You didn't offend me dear friend

 

[tucker58]

Does this not imply that morality only has a part to play within the confines of society?

As it is plain, or should be, that society is not the standard of morality.

If Religion and morality do not agree, there then will be no society.

Zeena warior saint, I love what you post and yes you are like me, "very aggressive". At the same time, Jane is a very rational person even though she is not Christian. When it comes to understanding the society that we all live in, Jane is not wrong.

love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

I'm still relatively new here but I'd like to add my two cents.

I think that some people show fear or dislike of Christianity because of, as others have said, acts committed against people throughout the ages. Some Christians used to, back in the Middle-Ages and up until I'd say about half-a century ago, fight amongst themselves as well as other religions.

Another thing is the forced conversions that were made to happen when Christianity was being spread, the wanton violence and destruction of native religions and such is still in the minds, I am sure, of some neo-Pagans who practice older, pre-Christian religions.

I personally don't hate anyone, but I think that Christians of today should be aware of and strive to do better then some of the actions committed in the name of the Bible and Jesus throughout history.

Jesus, brought an end to human and animal blood sacrifices as an accepted way to appeal to God or "the gods" for favors. We as humans should respect Jesus, if for nothing else, for that alone. With the understanding that the Prophet Muhammad played an important part with tiding up the human and animal blood sacrifice problem. A very important part!

Kamriam, your blame is not on God or Jesus, your blame is on those that claim to be the followers. That is a valid complaint.

love,

tuck

 

[Kamrian]

Jesus, brought an end to human and animal blood sacrifices as an accepted way to appeal to God or "the gods" for favors. We as humans should respect Jesus, if for nothing else, for that alone. With the understanding that the Prophet Muhammad played an important part with tiding up the human and animal blood sacrifice problem. A very important part!

Kamriam, your blame is not on God or Jesus, your blame is on those that claim to be the followers. That is a valid complaint.

love,

tuck

Thanks Tuck, and I know that Christianity helped bring an end to pagan blood sacrifices. But going by History, after it became the official religion of Rome the Emperors and the Church, which over time became so identical that they were almost the same thing, turned on pagan citizens and began to dismantle everything that they held dear.

It carried over to Europe, where for example members of the Pagan priesthoods in some of the Scandinavian countries were tied to rocks and left to die out at sea, and many people were killed for refusing to convert.

Just because I posted this, it doesn't mean I dislike or hate anyone. I don't hate Jesus or Christianity, I think it has some very valid and noble tenants. I just think that people need to learn about some of the bad things(as noted above) done in the name of Christianity to prevent such hatred and intolerance from happening again.

 

[tucker58]

I'm still relatively new here but I'd like to add my two cents.

I think that some people show fear or dislike of Christianity because of, as others have said, acts committed against people throughout the ages. Some Christians used to, back in the Middle-Ages and up until I'd say about half-a century ago, fight amongst themselves as well as other religions.

Another thing is the forced conversions that were made to happen when Christianity was being spread, the wanton violence and destruction of native religions and such is still in the minds, I am sure, of some neo-Pagans who practice older, pre-Christian religions.

I personally don't hate anyone, but I think that Christians of today should be aware of and strive to do better then some of the actions committed in the name of the Bible and Jesus throughout history.

Now the question is Kamrian, "Are you a true Pagan?" or are you just using the word Pagan to be anti something? No true Pagan was hunted by the Catholic Church, they were exempt from church law. Those that worshipped the Father as Christians and those that worshipped the Mother as Pagans ganged up and fought together to rub out the Druids that were into human and animal sacrifice. No true Pagan was ever into blood sacrifice. The problem is not true Pagans that truly love and worship the Mother, the problem is those who claim to be Pagans and do not actually love and worship the Mother. They will be hunted to extinction , but then that is another story and has nothing to do with this message board.

Love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

Thanks Tuck, and I know that Christianity helped bring an end to pagan blood sacrifices. But going by History, after it became the official religion of Rome the Emperors and the Church, which over time became so identical that they were almost the same thing, turned on pagan citizens and began to dismantle everything that they held dear.

It carried over to Europe, where for example members of the Pagan priesthoods in some of the Scandinavian countries were tied to rocks and left to die out at sea, and many people were killed for refusing to convert.

Just because I posted this, it doesn't mean I dislike or hate anyone. I don't hate Jesus or Christianity, I think it has some very valid and noble tenants. I just think that people need to learn about some of the bad things(as noted above) done in the name of Christianity to prevent such hatred and intolerance from happening again.

I agree with you with the understanding that those so called Pagans were still attempting to cut the hearts out of folk as a blood sacrifice.

you are loved!

tuck

 

[dlamberth]

If Religion and morality do not agree, there then will be no society.

Or at least a disfunctional society.

 

[Ayersy]

Or at least a disfunctional society.

Either that, or religion may have to actually buck it's ideas up and catch up with society's morality, instead of trying to enforce ludicrous and outdated ideas about morality, which make no sense.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Interestingly enough, even a dysfunctional society can flourish for a limited amount of time, especially if its violence is directed towards outsiders rather than members of the in-group:
Take human sacrifice, for example. If it is exclusively performed on captured enemies/neighbouring tribesmen, the damage to one's own society is minimal - no bigger than, say, living in a society that still supports the death penalty.

 

[Josiah14]

I probably won't be around to talk much longer, but found some of my old posts and copied the main points of my argument below, if you should decide you wish to read why I used to argue that the word aion and its cognates do not emphasize duration but rather quality:

By comparing similar word constructions that emphasize the superlative in both the New Testament and the Septuagint, it is obvious that the phrase "ages of ages" in Revelation, as in all other cases, is a qualitative phrase expressing the superlative, not a quantitative phrase defining duration.
Hebrew Expression using (Singular followed by Singular) 1. Holiness of Holiness” Ezekiel 48:12 (LXX - hagion hagion) translated most holy.
Hebrew Expression (Singular followed by Plural):
1. Vanity of Vanities" Ecclesiastes 1:2 (Septuagint - mataiotis mataiotiton)
3. Heaven of Heavens” 1 Kings 8:27 (Septuagint - ouranos tou ouranou)
4. Holy of Holies” Exodus 26:33 (Septuagint - hagiou ton hagion)
5. Lord of Lords” (Psalm 136:3/Septuagint 135:3 - kyrio ton kyrion)
Hebrew Expressions (Plural followed by Plural):
1. Holies of Holies" I Kings 8:6 (Septuagint - eis ta hagia ton hagion)
2. Heavens of Heavens Psalm 148:4 (Septuagint - ouranoi ton ouranon)
Greek Expressions (Singular followed by Singular):
1. Age of the age (aiona tou aionos): Hebrews 1:8
Greek Expressions (Singular followed by Plural):
1. Lord of Lords (kyrios kyrion) κύριος κυρίων (Revelation 17:14) 2. King of Kings (vasileis vasileon) βασιλεὺς βασιλέων (Revelation 17:14)
3. Age of ages (aionos ton aionon): Ephesians 3:21
Greek Expressions (Plural followed by Plural):
1. Holies of Holies" (hagia hagion) (Hebrews 9:3)
2. In Hebrews 9, Nestle reads (margin v. 25) (eis ta hagia ton hagion) "into the holies of the holies" (as in I Kings 8:6)
3. Ages of Ages (aionas ton aionon) (Revelation 14:11; 20:10)

Comparing the above word constructions shows that phrase “ages of ages" (aionas ton aionon) in Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 expresses the superlative just like "holies of holies" (hagia ton hagion) in Hebrews 9:3 and also "heavens of heavens" (ouranoi ton ouranon) in Psalm 148:4. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just because something is everlasting, perpetual or forever does not mean it is eternal.

Habakkuk says the mountains that were "everlasting", until they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), until it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever", until the tenth generation (Deut.23.3)

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16), until Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8), until in the New Covenant, the first was "done away" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

Jonah went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars against him forever, until God brought up his life from corruption on the third day. (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12), until the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9), until the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetual", until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for sins, and we now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

In chapter 15, Philemon is instructed to receive Onesimus "forever" (aionios), that is until the end of his earthly life/aion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look at how αιωνιος/αιωνιον is used in the Septuagint Old Testament to describe duration and see if aionios by itself means eternal.

Ex 31:16 διαθηκη αιωνιος = perpetual covenant (Saturday Sabbath) but not eternal.

Ex. 12:14 αιωνιον εορτασετε = forever feast (Passover observance) but not eternal.

Leviticus 24:8 διαθηκην αιωνιον = everlasting covenant (law of Moses) but not eternal.

Lev 16:34 αιωνιον εξιλασκεσθαι = everlasting statute (yearly atonement) but not eternal.

Genesis 17:13 διαθηκην αιωνιον = eternal covenant (physical circumcision) but not eternal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Look at all the things below that are modified by "aionian"

John 3:36 aionian life - ζωὴν αἰώνιον
Mathew 25:41 aionian fire - πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον
Rev. 14:6 aionian gospel - εὐαγγέλιον αἰώνιον
II Thes 1:7-9 aionian destruction - ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον
Matthew 25:46 aionian punishment - κόλασιν αἰώνιον
Matthew 25:46 aionian life - ζωὴν αἰώνιον
Leviticus 24:8 aionian covenant - διαθηκην αιωνιον
Leviticus 16:34 aionian statue -αιωνιον εξιλασκεσθαι
Exodus 12:24 aionian feast -αιωνιον εορτασετε
Heb 9:14 aionian spirit - Πνεύματος αἰωνίου
Heb 6:2, aionian judgment - κρίματος αἰωνίου
Heb 5:9 aionian salvation - σωτηρίας αἰωνίου
Luke 16:9 aionian dwellings - αἰωνίους σκηνάς
Hebrews 9:12 aionian redemption - αἰωνίαν λύτρωσιν
Romans 16:25 aionian times - χρόνοις αἰωνίοις
Romans 16:26 aionian God - αἰωνίου Θεοῦ

It is the character, quality and result of the covenant, statute, life, punishment, feast, fire, salvation, judgment, redemption, spirit, times, destruction, gospel, dwellings and God Himself which is the primary concern of the adjective, not whether the duration of the modified noun is temporal or eternal. Note the last two entries from Romans. God and times are both described by the adjectival form of aion. The aionian God is not God simply because he lasts forever any more than aionian times are eternal simply because they are described as aionian.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greek words in Scripture that actually denote "eternal" are: akataluton “imperishable", aphtharto "immortal", amarantos "unfading", athanasian "indissoluble", anui telos "without end", anolethron "indestructible", adioleipton "never ceasing", ateleuteton "endless", pantote "forever", and eis tou dienekes "forever". These kinds of qualifying words are used to describe the rewards and blessedness of believers. However, Scripture never uses such words denoting endless duration to describe punishment for the wicked.

Aahh, I see what you are saying.

I was told that the 5th counsel was defending free will against Originistic thought, and without leaving open the possibility that someone could reject God eternally, free will would be compromised. In other words, the idea that Gahenna cannot be eternal cannot be Orthodox Dogma because of free will. Therefore, the counsel defended this by stating that Gahenna is eternal.

I'v also heard it argued that Gahenna, actually, must be eternal because many hold that, since the demons are rebelling against God with their whole being, there is nothing to bring them back to repentance, whereas we humans have a chance because there is a remnant of God-likeness within us that can turn us around. What happens with us beyond the grave is still very much a mystery, but other Saints have seen visions which suggest that there are some people for whom repentance is no longer possible so long as free will is respected.

I don't think this takes away from God's Love at all, as foreknowledge does not mean predestination. God can create beings with the capacity to choose good, and, though He knows they won't choose good, He gives them every chance at life anyway. Slavery to sin is one thing, if you hate the sin even though you commit it because of some strong passion that overwhelms you, this does not damn you. What damns a person is when God does all He can to raise a person out of sin and that person willingly throws himself back into the filth of his own accord. One can say, 'but nobody would ever do that.', but, then, it is written, to paraphrase, that 'the condemnation of the world is this, that Love came into the world, but men loved sin instead', and this is a choice, a free and stubborn refusal to change though the strength to do so is already given to you. Since we men do not know what Grace each has recieved, we cannot judge, but God, who knows, judges. Free will demands that a person truly have the choice, to continually blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or to turn away from sin, and to choose this without being compelled in one way or the other.

I, personally, now remember being encouraged as an Orthodox Christian to hope for the salvation of all. I figure, what's the sense in hoping for the salvation of all if it is already known that not all will be saved eventually? St. Isaac, I think, was probably wrong about the demons, but perhaps he doesn't have to be wrong about mankind.

At any rate, whatever was decided at the counsel is correct, and while universalism might have been very popular in certain periods of early Church history, non-universalism was also widely held throughout Christendom in the early centuries, so, as this dogma can still be traced back, one cannot claim that it was an innovation of the 5th Counsel.

 

[Josiah14]

TSD,

I will probably be leaving the forums for a while, too. I'm going to be pursuing a new degree (in Bioinformatics) and wont have time for this anymore.

The religious debates here are interesting, but I'm more fascinated with the natural and life sciences.

I wish everyone here the best in their search for Truth.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

TSD,

I will probably be leaving the forums for a while, too. I'm going to be pursuing a new degree (in Bioinformatics) and wont have time for this anymore.

The religious debates here are interesting, but I'm more fascinated with the natural and life sciences.

I wish everyone here the best in their search for Truth.

Farewell.

 

[Josiah14]

And one more thing, Josiah14. I'd like to share a post I composed two years ago here on C.F. where I argued for a qualitative definition of the word translated as "eternal" rather than quantitative. The link is HERE.

Thanks for the conversation. All the best to you.

You're very welcome for the conversation. I really appreciate your honesty and assertiveness on the topics we discussed. I tried my best to give you the same respect in my posts.

I'll check out the link when I get a chance. Bear in mind, however, that while the Scriptures are at the center of Orthodox Tradition, they are not the sole authority. As such, debates on the wording of Scripture will get me to think, but will probably not change my mind on anything unless there is a blatent contradiction to Holy Tradition.

I wish you the best, too.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

TSD,

I will probably be leaving the forums for a while, too. I'm going to be pursuing a new degree (in Bioinformatics) and wont have time for this anymore.

The religious debates here are interesting, but I'm more fascinated with the natural and life sciences.

I wish everyone here the best in their search for Truth.

Thanks!