Why do people hate ICE...

[rjs330]

Open borders is a republican talking point. Not reality on the ground.

I've just clarified rhe point. Yeah, its not really open borders. It's ALMOST open borders.

 

[rjs330]

This is the only way any sort of just Kingdom can be established. But as per human nature this will never happen.

Yes because rhe only way to make it happen is by the force of government. Forcing your neighbor to give, which is antithetical to scriptural teaching.

More and more nations will want the material gains of the west. This is the measure that everyone has the same level of life as we living comfortably in the west. I don't think the earth can take that. Some something has to give.

Yes and thise nations aren't willing to do what it takes to get there.

 

[stevevw]

I literally told you that I knew you lived on an island and that's why you are clueless regarding "borders".

I diagreeing with your assumption that I am clueless because I live on a large island and have no fenses or guards.

Once the Tasmanians were dealt with.

More politicing.

This is the problem, Steve. You want to play around in American politics and you don't understand basic cultural references that would be known to *anyone* your age in my country. Let me summarize it for you -- the goals of the DEI you decry were the subjects of actual advertising campaigns from soft drink companies (Coke-a-Cola, Dr. Pepper) in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow it has become "bad". (I wonder why...)

I still cannot see what this has got to do with immigration and border security. You seem to be dredging up unrelated stuff about stereotypical cultural icons from decades ago. What has DEI got to do with it. Are you bringing in DEI as why the government is cracking down on border security.

As I stated, I know it is an island. You wrote of anti-ICE violence and I pointed out that the streets were filled with non-violent protesters. In contrast group violence against immigrants (not immigration officers) has been a fixture of American culture for 2 centuries. I'm not sure how this is hard to comprehend. Perhaps it is that your assumptions on this thread are completely disconnected from reality.

Are you saying that because there is a history of violence against immigrants that this somehow negatives policies to toughen up immigration and border security.

I was saying that people can protest but not commit violence or call for violence or do violence against others as part of the protests. That it seems as a result the tension has gone up 10 notches and we are seeing an increase in violent speak and acts including terror acts. This is an observation and a reality. To say nothing about whose fault but that its a fact it is happening.

Places where unauthorized and deportable immigrants are located are not war zones, nor are they terrorists.

I don't think this is what they are trying to combat. Its more the criminal and terror groups or people that are fighting the policy or cracking down. Did not an ICE facility get shot up and other shooters. Was not ANTIFA involved. Maybe a bomb threat. There have been riots and in some places its increased 1,000%.

I have seen people in streets throwing things at ICE agents. They are doxing them in the hope they and their family are identified and attacks and possibly killed.

Immigration Brief: Domestic Extremists Target ICE Officers

Immigration Brief: Domestic Extremists Target ICE Officers

New analysis from the Center for Immigration Studies highlights the growing threat that ICE agents face from those who oppose border security and law enforcement. Last summer, Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Claire Grady issued a warning to employees that they were under "heightened...

cis.org

The Rising Threat of Anti-Government Domestic Terrorism: What the Data Tells Us
The number of domestic terrorist attacks and plots against government targets motivated by partisan political beliefs in the past five years is nearly triple the number of such incidents in the previous 25 years combined, according to new CSIS analysis of 30 years of domestic terrorism data in the United States.

The Rising Threat of Anti-Government Domestic Terrorism: What the Data Tells Us

The number of U.S. domestic terrorist attacks and plots against government targets motivated by partisan political beliefs in the past five years is nearly triple the number of such incidents in the previous 25 years combined, according to new CSIS analysis.

www.csis.org

The answer is for ICE to stop being so violent.

I agree if they are being violent. But what is violence. For some simply stopping undocumented immigrants is violence. If as a result that the mre radical arm of those who believe imigrants should not be stopped become violent what then. Should the government increase their protection and ability to combat these radicals. Or increase law and order as a result of it getting out of hand.

It is ICE that is committing the violence.

Hum this is what I am seeing. Were there not terror attacks on ICE facilities. Are not people in the streets attacking ICE agents just moving through the streets. Is not ANTIFA an organised terror group commiting terror against ICE. The articles above say otherwise. They speak of a rising terror full stop that is unjustified. If there is a rising terror should not the government be prepared.

This reminds me of the riots and violence in past revolutions. They have a right to protest but not use violence. The fact is overall violence is rising and theres been more terror attacks and shootings than in the last 30 years or more.

But not just for ICE. A general rising of violence and culture wars. Three attempts on Trump and Kirk is just a couple of examples. But other assassinations of people and shootings and violence is rising. The climate is heating up.

It is ICE that is committing the violence. "Antifa" hasn't attacked anyone.

Hum is Antifa a group that uses violence and terror. If they did not do it then was this attack an act of terror against a government department. Is there any organised groups who are willing to commit violence and terror against the US government.

Federal prosecutors have secured a grand jury indictment of two alleged followers of the antifa movement on terrorism-related charges stemming from their involvement in a July 4 attack on an ICE detention facility in Alvarado, Texas

DOJ charges alleged antifa followers with terrorism offense for attack on Alvarado ICE facility

Two alleged antifa followers have been indicted in what appears to be the first time a charge of terrorism has been applied to followers of the anti-fascist movement.

abcnews.go.com

Anarchists and Rioters in Portland Illegally Dox ICE Officers and Federal Law Enforcement
Multiple organizations appear to be responsible for doxing these federal officers, including an anarchist and Antifa-affiliated group based in Portland called “Rose City Counter-Info” and another called “The Crustian Daily.” Both of these groups have published the names, pictures, and personal address of ICE officers on their websites.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/07/11/anarchists-and-rioters-portland-illegally-dox-ice-officers-and-federal-law

If you add the above articles it seems Anifia is a rising problem that is willing to use violence and promote it. But also splinter groups are growing. A similar thing happened with BLM. These groups though well intended can promote radicalism. Many are linked to other terror groups.

There is definitely a rising problem of radicalisation in US politics. But its also worldwide and the same basic divide of radical left and right.

The Rise of Political Violence in the United States

The Rise of Political Violence in the United States | Journal of Democracy

In a deeply polarized United States, ordinary people now consume and espouse once-radical ideas and are primed to commit violence.

www.journalofdemocracy.org

We're talking about America, Steve. All nuts are gun nuts.

Is that a way of justifying whats happening.

Paxton is a thug.

I don't know him but it seems the independent evidence supports his claim that political violence is rising and more are willing to use violence as a means.

Student acceptance of violence in response to speech hits a record high
According to FIRE’s annual College Free Speech Rankings survey, in 2020, the national average showed about 1 in 5 students said it was ever acceptable to use violence to stop a speaker. That number has since risen to a disturbing 1 in 3 students.

Student acceptance of violence in response to speech hits a record high

In 2020, just 1 in 5 students said it was acceptable to use violence to stop a speaker. Now it’s 1 in 3 — a nearly 80% jump in five years.

www.thefire.org

There’s a growing number of Americans who think violence might be necessary to get the country back on track

There’s a growing number of Americans who think violence might be necessary to get the country back on track

Nearly a third of Americans – 30% – say people may have to resort to violence in order to get the country back on track, according to the latest PBS News/NPR/Marist poll.

www.pbs.org

You don't actually read what I write, do you? Just typing random thoughts after what I wrote, eh?

I did and I am way ahead and your not keeping up. I said there were similarities between radicalism of Islamist and the radicalism that is behind the growing violence and terror attacks in the US. I explained this a bit above.

You cannot see this as your probably don't understand sociology and psychology of the thinking behind such radicalism. This is my area. Yours maybe physics but mine is human sciences.

What is "coming" Steve?

More of the same. More persecution of Jews and increasing persecution of Christians.

Who trusts the UN?

Really is that the trench you want to die in. You really don't think there is any truth to the UN assessments. I know they can be highly biased. But I just gave you ample independent evidence of this. Do you not notice the rise in unrest and civil conflicts, protests, riots in many nations. The increasing use of violence.

 

[stevevw]

Yes because rhe only way to make it happen is by the force of government. Forcing your neighbor to give, which is antithetical to scriptural teaching.

I was thinking that by its very nature fallen humans are more inclined to want to live according to the world and their natural desires. It goes against human flesh nature to live as Gods Kingdom on earth as it is spiritual and requires submitting to God and living according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Yes and thise nations aren't willing to do what it takes to get there.

Its a conflict of interests. You cannot serve both money and materialism and self or God at the same time. Something becomes your god. Its either the worlds principalities and ideologies. Or its Gods.

There is really nothing to do but submit. Thats the hardest part.

I think thats the fundemental division and conflict. That people have different beliefs and ideas about the world and beyond. About who should be God and King of us all. There is no unity of mind and spirit.

If we were all united under Christ as King then we would be unified and know that there is no King but Christ. We would have a true God worthy as our King to unite under. Any earthy leader would be a servant of that King.

 

[camille70]

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/northwest/idaho/article312575080.html

‘Very scary’: Protesters criticize raid in Idaho where children were detained

After FBI raid in southwest Idaho, advocates denounce ‘military-style’ tactics and detaining kids • Idaho Capital Sun

Advocates said that everyone attending the venue in Wilder was detained, children were zip-tied, and people were struck with rubber bullets.

idahocapitalsun.com

---
After FBI raid in southwest Idaho, advocates denounce ‘military-style’ tactics and detaining kids

FBI says ICE helped ‘process individuals who were found to have potential immigration violations’ in Wilder illegal gambling investigation

---

https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1980437269052883005

 

[Hans Blaster]

I diagreeing with your assumption that I am clueless because I live on a large island and have no fenses or guards.

You are clueless because you only read far-right "news" from a country where you don't live and don't understand the political context.

More politicing.

It was history

I still cannot see what this has got to do with immigration and border security. You seem to be dredging up unrelated stuff about stereotypical cultural icons from decades ago. What has DEI got to do with it. Are you bringing in DEI as why the government is cracking down on border security.

You brought "DEI paradise" up as part of your earlier post. DEI does not actually have anything to do with the topic of ICE violence, but this is the problem with your posts Steve. Your posts are continually filled with unnecessary and unconnected thoughts. That particular bit in the earlier posts was a word salad of RW talking points of which less than half had anything to do with the topic. Edit your posts! Not just for spelling and grammar, but for CONTENT. Remove superfluous ideas. Make them shorter and stick to topics you understand. This is not one of them.

Are you saying that because there is a history of violence against immigrants that this somehow negatives policies to toughen up immigration and border security.

No what I am saying is that ICE violence today is but a continuation of anti-immigrant violence in the US. Some has been "official" others not. Today's ICE dresses like an anti-immigrant mob and acts like one. They need to act like professionals not street gangs.

I was saying that people can protest but not commit violence or call for violence or do violence against others as part of the protests.

And they aren't committing violence in their protests.

That it seems as a result the tension has gone up 10 notches and we are seeing an increase in violent speak and acts including terror acts. This is an observation and a reality. To say nothing about whose fault but that its a fact it is happening.

It is ICE that is ramping up this tension with their tactics and practices.

I don't think this is what they are trying to combat. Its more the criminal and terror groups or people that are fighting the policy or cracking down.

Let me repeat the statement you "responded to": Immimgrant communities (including the ones where persons who are not permitted to be here live, work, and shop ARE NOT WAR ZONES. They have crime and poverty like other less well off neighborhoods, but the ARE NOT WAR ZONES. The invasion tactics used by ICE as if they are raiding al-Qaida cells are not necessary or helpful. ICE and DHS use propaganda as if they are going into combat zones -- THEY LIE.

Did not an ICE facility get shot up and other shooters. Was not ANTIFA involved. Maybe a bomb threat.

I know of *one* ICE facility where there was a shooting, 3 non-citizens were hit. No ICE were hit. I have no idea who did it as the story has moved off the news.

There have been riots and in some places its increased 1,000%.

This is a claim ICE likes to make. The reality is that "assaults" on ICE officers have gone from a few dozen last year to a couple hundred this year and that many of these assaults are extremely minor and even of the ones that have been charged, very few of the charges have "stuck".

I have seen people in streets throwing things at ICE agents. They are doxing them in the hope they and their family are identified and attacks and possibly killed.

They are not being "doxxed". What has been published are the names, faces, and operational location of some ICE/DHS officers. The names of police are not secrets. Home addresses, phone numbers, government ID numbers, etc that is doxxing. It is not what was done.

Immigration Brief: Domestic Extremists Target ICE Officers

Immigration Brief: Domestic Extremists Target ICE Officers

New analysis from the Center for Immigration Studies highlights the growing threat that ICE agents face from those who oppose border security and law enforcement. Last summer, Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Claire Grady issued a warning to employees that they were under "heightened...

cis.org

CIS is an anti immigration group.

The Rising Threat of Anti-Government Domestic Terrorism: What the Data Tells Us
The number of domestic terrorist attacks and plots against government targets motivated by partisan political beliefs in the past five years is nearly triple the number of such incidents in the previous 25 years combined, according to new CSIS analysis of 30 years of domestic terrorism data in the United States.

The Rising Threat of Anti-Government Domestic Terrorism: What the Data Tells Us

The number of U.S. domestic terrorist attacks and plots against government targets motivated by partisan political beliefs in the past five years is nearly triple the number of such incidents in the previous 25 years combined, according to new CSIS analysis.

www.csis.org

"Domestic terrorism" is not the issue.

I agree if they are being violent. But what is violence. For some simply stopping undocumented immigrants is violence. If as a result that the mre radical arm of those who believe imigrants should not be stopped become violent what then. Should the government increase their protection and ability to combat these radicals. Or increase law and order as a result of it getting out of hand.

ICE is violent against protesters. Uses excessive protest when making arrests. Detains citizens. They are the problem. Not because of their job, but because of how they do it. They dress like thugs and act like thugs.

Hum this is what I am seeing. Were there not terror attacks on ICE facilities. Are not people in the streets attacking ICE agents just moving through the streets. Is not ANTIFA an organised terror group commiting terror against ICE. The articles above say otherwise. They speak of a rising terror full stop that is unjustified. If there is a rising terror should not the government be prepared.

This reminds me of the riots and violence in past revolutions. They have a right to protest but not use violence. The fact is overall violence is rising and theres been more terror attacks and shootings than in the last 30 years or more.

But not just for ICE. A general rising of violence and culture wars. Three attempts on Trump and Kirk is just a couple of examples. But other assassinations of people and shootings and violence is rising. The climate is heating up.

Hum is Antifa a group that uses violence and terror. If they did not do it then was this attack an act of terror against a government department. Is there any organised groups who are willing to commit violence and terror against the US government.

What is Hum?

Federal prosecutors have secured a grand jury indictment of two alleged followers of the antifa movement on terrorism-related charges stemming from their involvement in a July 4 attack on an ICE detention facility in Alvarado, Texas

DOJ charges alleged antifa followers with terrorism offense for attack on Alvarado ICE facility

Two alleged antifa followers have been indicted in what appears to be the first time a charge of terrorism has been applied to followers of the anti-fascist movement.

abcnews.go.com

I don't know this story.

Anarchists and Rioters in Portland Illegally Dox ICE Officers and Federal Law Enforcement
Multiple organizations appear to be responsible for doxing these federal officers, including an anarchist and Antifa-affiliated group based in Portland called “Rose City Counter-Info” and another called “The Crustian Daily.” Both of these groups have published the names, pictures, and personal address of ICE officers on their websites.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/07/11/anarchists-and-rioters-portland-illegally-dox-ice-officers-and-federal-law

If you add the above articles it seems Anifia is a rising problem that is willing to use violence and promote it. But also splinter groups are growing. A similar thing happened with BLM. These groups though well intended can promote radicalism. Many are linked to other terror groups.

DHS lies so freely at this point I have no reason to take any of their propaganda seriously.

There is definitely a rising problem of radicalisation in US politics. But its also worldwide and the same basic divide of radical left and right.

The Rise of Political Violence in the United States

The Rise of Political Violence in the United States | Journal of Democracy

In a deeply polarized United States, ordinary people now consume and espouse once-radical ideas and are primed to commit violence.

www.journalofdemocracy.org

Did you even read that article from Oct 2021?

Is that a way of justifying whats happening.

Retract your accusation. There two things above my "all nuts are gun nuts" comment. One was the thing (the one I fobbed off) was about the sniper shooting at an ICE intake where 3 detainees were shot. (And since this event has faded out of discussion, I don't know that we ever found out if the target was immigrants or ICE.) It was the last in a sequence of sniper type shootings with ambiguous "sniper-style" shootings where the motivation is unclear and political actors projected their opponents onto the shooters. I was getting sick of your post at that point, so I threw out some old thing. But it is the case that so many people have access to guns in this country that all sorts of unhinged people take shots at "associated" targets with confusing motivations.

The rest of that section was some ball of propaganda and lies from DHS about how "threatened" they are.

I don't know him but it seems the independent evidence supports his claim that political violence is rising and more are willing to use violence as a means.

This is why your attempts to discuss US politics are so frustrating, Steve. Ken Paxton is the AG of Texas. He was impeached (but not removed). He is corrupt and authoritarian and running for governor. If you want any credibility as to your knowledge of American politics, you should know these things. I don't claim knowledge of your current politics as the only one of your leaders I know is Chuck3.

Student acceptance of violence in response to speech hits a record high
According to FIRE’s annual College Free Speech Rankings survey, in 2020, the national average showed about 1 in 5 students said it was ever acceptable to use violence to stop a speaker. That number has since risen to a disturbing 1 in 3 students.

Student acceptance of violence in response to speech hits a record high

In 2020, just 1 in 5 students said it was acceptable to use violence to stop a speaker. Now it’s 1 in 3 — a nearly 80% jump in five years.

www.thefire.org

There’s a growing number of Americans who think violence might be necessary to get the country back on track

There’s a growing number of Americans who think violence might be necessary to get the country back on track

Nearly a third of Americans – 30% – say people may have to resort to violence in order to get the country back on track, according to the latest PBS News/NPR/Marist poll.

www.pbs.org

The topic is ICE. Stick to it.

I did and I am way ahead and your not keeping up. I said there were similarities between radicalism of Islamist and the radicalism that is behind the growing violence and terror attacks in the US. I explained this a bit above.

You cannot see this as your probably don't understand sociology and psychology of the thinking behind such radicalism. This is my area. Yours maybe physics but mine is human sciences.

"human sciences"? What is your professional training in "human sciences"? Mine in physics is a Ph.D. and 25 years of subsequent work.

More of the same. More persecution of Jews and increasing persecution of Christians.

I know, isn't it horrible how you guys are persecuted in countries where you are the majority. Please don't cry in my river, the salt will kill the fish.

Really is that the trench you want to die in. You really don't think there is any truth to the UN assessments. I know they can be highly biased. But I just gave you ample independent evidence of this. Do you not notice the rise in unrest and civil conflicts, protests, riots in many nations. The increasing use of violence.

No steve, I got sick of your irrelevant links. International conflict has nothing to do with "why people hate ICE". I'm not going to give serious replies to all of your distractions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you believe in open borders. Or having some laws and regulations that can control and process people before they enter another nation.

No, I don't believe in "open borders". I believe in having laws and regulations that can control and process people before they enter.

I also, as an American, believe in the laws and regulations as written in the Constitution of the United States which guarantees to all people within the jurisdiction of the United States the inalienable right to due process.

ICE is violating the Constitution, it is trampling on the rights of persons. Even an undocumented, "illegal" immigrant has the right of due process. The US Constitution does not limit the right of due process to citizens, or to legal residents, it extends that right to all persons.

When a group of armed thugs without badges, wearing masks chases people down, detains people indiscriminately, without provocation, and denies them due process--to people regardless of citizenship, regardless of circumstance, regardless of the law--that is a lawless, unconstitutional act which flies in the face and violates the very core principles of a free society: it is an attack on the inalienable rights of ALL Americans.

It is an attack on American democracy. It is an attack on America's republican values. It is an attack on the rule of law. It is an attack on the Constitution. When the rights of some are so flagrantly violated, it threatens the rights of all.

So when you come here saying we oppose what ICE is doing because we want "open borders" and no rule or regulation, then in the very best scenario you simply don't have the first clue what you're talking about. In the worst case scenario you are advocating lawless authoritarianism and the eradication of human dignity.

Now that you have been corrected in your error that we want some kind of lawless open border policy (we don't), you have a choice to make moving forward: Modify your views so that they align with the truth, and recognize that human freedom and dignity depends on free societies where the rule of law matters, and people in authority do not have the right to violate the dignity and rights of human beings. Or you can choose the side of jack-booted thugs and fascists.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[stevevw]

No, I don't believe in "open borders". I believe in having laws and regulations that can control and process people before they enter.

Ok so therefore because this was not applied and things got out of hand now they are having to clean up this mess. Should they find and remove those who came illegally.

I also, as an American, believe in the laws and regulations as written in the Constitution of the United States which guarantees to all people within the jurisdiction of the United States the inalienable right to due process.

ICE is violating the Constitution, it is trampling on the rights of persons. Even an undocumented, "illegal" immigrant has the right of due process. The US Constitution does not limit the right of due process to citizens, or to legal residents, it extends that right to all persons.

What is the due process. If people cross the border illegally what is the due process.

When a group of armed thugs without badges, wearing masks

Why are they wearing masks.

chases people down, detains people indiscriminately, without provocation,

What about when there is provocation. What if they have intell that tells them they are criminals. Are there any that they are finding that are not detained indescriminately and its justified to detain them. If they are avoiding authorities will they need to be found. Is it justified to find them.

and denies them due process--to people regardless of citizenship, regardless of circumstance, regardless of the law--that is a lawless,

As far as I understand the person is questioned to establish their right to be in the US. If they cannot prove this then they are regarded as illegal. Is there any justification in stopping illegals.

unconstitutional act which flies in the face and violates the very core principles of a free society: it is an attack on the inalienable rights of ALL Americans.

Ok I agree that if there are unjustified actions this is wrong. But you seem to be equation all the actions as unjustified. When a government cracks down on anything its not going to be nice as far as trying to control that situation. There is no nice way to do it.

It is an attack on American democracy.

So what about the terror attacks on government facilities and officers. Why is that not a threat to democracy.

It is an attack on America's republican values. It is an attack on the rule of law. It is an attack on the Constitution. When the rights of some are so flagrantly violated, it threatens the rights of all.

It is wrong to stop people who come into a nation illegally in the first place. It seems this is a case of how they are doing it and not that they have no right to stop people.

But I think the language is fueling the violence. For example I am pretty sure that the reason why ICE agents wear masks is because they are being identified and then threatened and attacked. Possibly their families. Death threats have increased.

But some create the narrative that they wear the masks as part of a fascist regime like Hitlers secret police and therefore thugs. This fuels the narative that fuels the violence. Its the same idea as how they painted Trump and Kirk as Nazis. It then causes some less stable people to believe they need to stop the Nazis.

The evidence for this is in the increase in violence and shootings and terror attacks.

‘Dangerous’ instances of doxxing, assaults against ICE agents soar as DHS tries to tamp down violent rhetoric

Exclusive | ‘Dangerous’ instances of doxxing, assaults against ICE agents soar as DHS tries to tamp down violent rhetoric

The Department of Homeland Security has condemned the “dangerous” doxxing of immigration agents and their families as the agency pleads to dial down the pervasive and escalating rhetori…

nypost.com

So when you come here saying we oppose what ICE is doing because we want "open borders" and no rule or regulation, then in the very best scenario you simply don't have the first clue what you're talking about. In the worst case scenario you are advocating lawless authoritarianism and the eradication of human dignity.

Ok so do you think there is a sector or even large sector that wants open borders. I just linked evidence of how the open borders is a real political ideology that many believe.

Now that you have been corrected in your error that we want some kind of lawless open border policy (we don't),

I am not sure about that. You may and others may. BUt the fact is there is an underlying ideology that open borders is a fundemental right by the fact they say that its not illegal and that the independent research shows there is a leaning towards the idea of open borders in general as a political ideology.

you have a choice to make moving forward: Modify your views so that they align with the truth, and recognize that human freedom and dignity depends on free societies where the rule of law matters, and people in authority do not have the right to violate the dignity and rights of human beings. Or you can choose the side of jack-booted thugs and fascists.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok. I think this is an either/or fallacy. I think there are more ways to see this. Perhaps somewhere in the middle. But I disagree its either all thugs or no thugs. That there are good people and thugs on both sides. At the moment by what you are saying there are some thugs on the side of the law enforcement.

But as I said I am not sure this is completely true as it seems things like just wearing masks to protect identity, to protect an officers family from being murdered is classed as being a thug. Or that cracking down on illegals and crime is part of policing and can seem unfair fullstop. How much of that is being equated as thuggery when its just the right thing to do in the circumstances.

If something is left unchecked like immigration and crime and it gets out of hand. Then any crack down is going to seem thuggery to some.

I fully agree that if anyone and especially those in power abuse their power then they should be pointed out. But I disagree that this should mean violence and actually shooting people to stop them.

 

[rjs330]

If we were all united under Christ as King then we would be unified and know that there is no King but Christ. We would have a true God worthy as our King to unite under. Any earthy leader would be a servant of that King.

Absolutely true. But thats not going to happen in this fallen world. We've seen what happens when a government is "Christian". It doesn’t go well. It goea no better in the long run than secular governments.

Even when Christ returns and rules this earth we won't be united because people will rebel.

I just don't see us ever being united even in Christ as a country. The body of Christ isn't even united now.

Someday every knee will bow and tongue confess. But its not today. Sadly.

 

[stevevw]

Absolutely true. But thats not going to happen in this fallen world. We've seen what happens when a government is "Christian". It doesn’t go well. It goea no better in the long run than secular governments.

Yes because its just another version of a world kingdom made in human image. Religion is using God as a way to push their worldly ideas and control others. But either way whether religion or ideology it is the same world beliefs about power and how society and the world should be ordered.

Though the truth principles such as rule of law, human worth and natural rights, the freedom of religion is fundementally Christian values and can be aligned. They are not the same thing as far as the foundation on which they sit.

Even when Christ returns and rules this earth we won't be united because people will rebel.

Yes fundementally this is about who is the god of ourselves and this world. One wants to creat a kingdom on earth and the other one in Heaven. In that sense Christians should be seperated from the worlds ideas and even religion posing as a political good.

Sure we should promote the truth principles if a government is supporting such. Like freedom of belief which allows Christians to practice their belief. But when they don't then this is time to retreat and be seperated and disagree.

But not get into a political war over it. Set the example seperated from the world and this will speak much more than words. Christ said to the disciples when they were sent out into the word. To go into towns and tell the good news and if they reject you then move one and don't stay. If they accept the message then good then you are welcome.

Paul often talked about being insultaed from the world, stopping the world coming into the church as a seperate community of united mind and spirit. That the world would threaten this. Throughout history churches have acted from the sidelines and quietly in the background helping people.

I just don't see us ever being united even in Christ as a country. The body of Christ isn't even united now.

Um I think it varies from place to place and situation and there are degrees of unity. It use to be that both parties could agree on a lot and were bi partisan on important issues. There was much more middle ground.

I think fundementally like in any organisation a society or nation needs to be united in their mission statement or belief about what it is they are standing for. This is not just a Christian truth. The principle united we stand and divided we fall is a truth that has recycyled throughout time.

I see some unification where some in opposing parties are finding common ground. I see this to an extent in the CC and Anglicans. I see this in other Christians who may be from different denominations finding common ground. I see decent commonsense people agreeing on the fundemental truths of democracy like the freedom to hold beliefs and speech. I see the peace agreement to some extent a step towards unity at least for some Arab nations with Isreal.

But these come and go because they are never standing on the foundation of God. Of Christ. Though I do believe there will be a rising up of like minded and spirit Christians in the coming years and getting back to basics as a result of all the chaos and challenges to God.

Someday every knee will bow and tongue confess. But its not today. Sadly.

I think the whole idea of bowing and submitting to something above humans is anti world ideology. Even if thats not God. But now it seems especially that its God, Christ that they must acknowledge and submit to. Yet that submission is what they are looking for. Christ said I will give life in its abundance. Sometimes you have to give in to win.