Why do people believe in a Rapture?

tanzel said:

Five times the bible set the time of the great tribulation at 3 1/2
years which also is the time of the reign of the beast and the false prophet:

1 in Daniel 7:25;...time and times and the dividing of time.
2 Daniel 12:7 "times, times, and an half."
3 Revelation 11:2...and the holy city shall they tread under foot for forty and two months.
4 Revelation 11:3...and they (two witnesses), shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score
days (1260 days), and
5 Revelation 13:5 "power was given unto him to continue forty and two month (3 1/2 years)."

Most theologians and writers ignore all the scriptures that set a 3 1/2
years times limit on the reign of the anti-Christ and the beast (which is
the time of the great tribulations). They all say there will be seven years
of tribulation; and they all use the 9th chapter of Daniel to try to prove it.
It is also said by them that the ant-Christ is going to make a covenant
with the Jews for the one week (7years), and in the middle of the week
(after 3 1/2 years), he is going to break the covenant, and stop the Jews
from sacrificing animals and pollute the sanctuary. then they go on to say
that at the end of the week (7years), the Lord is going to come and pour
out his wrath upon this destroyer.

These scripture lets us know that the great tribulation will not start
until the abomination (false prophet) gets there. The four other scripture
we named earlier says he will only stay for 3 1/2years. The 9th chapter
of Daniel is not talking about the false prophet, neither is it talking about
the same time. Part of that scripture has already been fulfilled, even down
to destruction (consumption) of Jerusalem and that which was determined
has already been poured out upon the Jews, which are the desolate and
not the desolator. It is awfully strange that people with great understanding
of words do not know the different between the words make, and
confirm "the covenant" with many for one week, not make a covenant
with many. The desolate is one who is being destroyed, and the desolator
is the one who is doing the destroying. When people make a covenant
they are re-establishing an agreement that has already been made in the
past.

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Tanzel, lets do an experiment. Get an apple, cut in in half and eat ONLY one half today.
Put the other half in the refer and save it for a day. This day is to represent perhaps
2000 years.

Now, on the next day get out what is left of the apple and cut it in half.

Now what do you have left? It will be IMPOSSIBLE to have two halves of the apple, for
YOU ATE Half. What you have left is tw0 quarters.

My point? If one is to end up with two halves, one MUST start with a whole week.
If you try to divide a half of week, you end up with quarters not halfs.

If we look in Revelation, we see the trumpets in the first half and the vials in the last half, making up the entire week.

Fusion77 said:

Actually the church will be caught up at the 7th trumpet. We can use the 2 witnesses as a time frame. Understand, they are part of the church just as much as you and I. They are merely 2 vessels. As a matter of fact. 2 lampstands (vessels) basically useless, without essential items...oil (the anointing of Christ and the Holy Spirit) and the seven lamps which is the Spirit of God Revelation 4:5. Same as the church, useless without theses. The wrath of satan is 3.5 years. During that time the church will remain as a witness to the world, and to resist the power of the AC...by informing the people about Jesus. The church and the witnesses will be empowered by the Holy Spirit and Christ during this time. All the while they/we will be persecuted, held captive, burned, be headed etc. it will not seem so bad, as the Spirit will strengthen us. This is our purpose(witness)...not to be punished by God. After the 3.5 years, ALL the people of the earth will have heard the gospel Matthew 24:14. They will have made their decision whether they choose to repent and turn to or reject Christ, they'll have heard the message. Our work, (the witnesses work) is done. At the time the power of the AC satan, will be removed. They don't just say "oh 3.5 years, time to stop". No! The Lord will remove them from power. Daniel 7:26. 3.5 years Daniel 7:25 removed from power Daniel 7:26 reign of saints Daniel 7:27. After the witnesses are caught up the church is caught up at the 7th (last) trumpet. The work of the Church and the witnesses is DONE! Do think the Lord will keep them there just to suffer through His wrath? NO! They'll be Caught and immediately after His wrath will be poured out without dilution onto the inhabitants of the earth. These inhabitants are the ones who heard the daily messages and refused to repent. We will NOT be here for the wrath of God as represented in the vial judgements. Revelation 16:1.


The job of the church including witnesses in final 3.5 is to witness in the midst of tribulation to bring people to Christ. When their job is finished, they're outta there! No facing the vial judgements.

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This is theory, but it simply does not fit the scripture.

There is no gathering at the 7th trumpet.
God will have the two witnesses to testify during the last half, so NO NEED for the church. The church won't be here.
The wrath of Satan BEGINS at the midpoint when he is cast down. But the last half is also the time pf God's wrath. Therefore one CANNOT separate God's wrath from Satan's as they run concurrently. God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. The witnesses BEGIN near the midpoint and go to the END of the week.

The church is caught up at the 6th seal because that event triggers the DAY and God's wrath.

keras said:

Keras asked: Please provide a scripture that plainly says people will be taken to live in heaven:

Sorry, but none of those scriptures say any living person will ever go to live in heaven. Most have been addressed by other members and they prove how you rapture believers make out proofs from Bible passages that don't mean what you think at all. Believing in a rapture removal when the heat comes on, is a deception that will leave those who are disappointed, in a very difficult situation.
We are earth creatures, there is no reason for our Maker to ever take us to where He resides. At the end of all what is prophesied, God will come to earth THEN heaven will be where we are. Revelation 21:3

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On the contrary, when many are left behind because they were not ready, watching and expecting, they will be SHOCKED to find they are left behind and the world turned dark. Then they will be forced to DIE for their faith.

iamlamad said:

No matter how hard either side tries to find a final DESTINATION from the gathering in the air in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, it is just not there.

One side picks John 8 which gives us a heavenly destination. One side picks Matthew 24 and gives an earthly destination.
So we are still at a stalemate.

The only way to solve this is to show that there are TWO MORE comings: one He comes FOR His saints, and the next He comes WITH His saints. So in the first (next) coming it is destination heaven. In His coming WITH His saints, it will be destination earth, and no stopping in the air.

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Maybe you missed the word "descend" in the passage, and also failed to notice that there is no reference to an "ascent" back to heaven in the passage.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We are not at any kind of a stalemate.

Your interpretation is not found in the text.
.

iamlamad said:

This is theory, but it simply does not fit the scripture.

There is no gathering at the 7th trumpet.
God will have the two witnesses to testify during the last half, so NO NEED for the church. The church won't be here.
The wrath of Satan BEGINS at the midpoint when he is cast down. But the last half is also the time pf God's wrath. Therefore one CANNOT separate God's wrath from Satan's as they run concurrently. God will use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. The witnesses BEGIN near the midpoint and go to the END of the week.

The church is caught up at the 6th seal because that event triggers the DAY and God's wrath.

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No argument that satans wrath begins at the midpoint of the week. Or that the witnesses witness during the final 1265-1260-3.5 dead-1.5 for last trumpet... Give or take.

Gods wrath and satans wrath will NOT run concurrently. God has not appointed us to His wrath. Their will be plagues and lack of rain, but not THE wrath of God. The wrath of God will be expressed through the vial judgements. The sixth seal is not the wrath of God. All you see, in Revelation 6:17, is a bunch of sinners mistakenly attributing this to the wrath of God, it is not. At best, it is wrath (hell) for them on an individual basis. However, it is not THE wrath of God. None of the trumpets, as far as I can see, are considered the wrath of God...or referred to as such by any heavenly source.

However, when the vials are poured out there are MULTIPLE heavenly sources that are sure to let us know... These are His wrath. Revelation 15:1 Revelation 15:7 Revelation 16:7 Revelation 16:9 Revelation 16:19 Revelation 16:1.

The 7th trumpet is the last, trumpet and at that point, before the wrath of God...The church will be gathered away.

Again it's real simple. Daniel 7:25 AC empowered by satan 3.5 years. Daniel 7:26 AC removed by the Lord and heavens armies, after 3.5 years.(wrath of God) Daniel 7:27 reign with Christ after the earth is "cleansed".

iamlamad said:

On the contrary, when many are left behind because they were not ready, watching and expecting, they will be SHOCKED to find they are left behind and the world turned dark. Then they will be forced to DIE for their faith.

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This idea is purely fictional and lifted straight from the Left Behind fiction books.
Bible prophecy states there is soon coming a devastating judgement of fire, that will destroy all the Lord's enemies in the Middle East. But all of His righteous people will be protected and will go to live in all of the Holy Land. THAT is the truth of our future and either you believe it now, or 'remain in the dark' yourself.

BABerean2 said:

Maybe you missed the word "descend" in the passage, and also failed to notice that there is no reference to an "ascent" back to heaven in the passage.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We are not at any kind of a stalemate.

Your interpretation is not found in the text.
.

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Neither is YOURS....our did you miss that detail? What we are concerned with is the destination AFTER the meeting in the air.

Here is what I wrote:

"No matter how hard either side tries to find a final DESTINATION from the gathering in the air"...

Fusion77 said:

No argument that satans wrath begins at the midpoint of the week. Or that the witnesses witness during the final 1265-1260-3.5 dead-1.5 for last trumpet... Give or take.

Gods wrath and satans wrath will NOT run concurrently. God has not appointed us to His wrath. Their will be plagues and lack of rain, but not THE wrath of God. The wrath of God will be expressed through the vial judgements. The sixth seal is not the wrath of God. All you see, in Revelation 6:17, is a bunch of sinners mistakenly attributing this to the wrath of God, it is not.
Correction: that is all YOU see. It is not all I see. I read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 and see that all the SIGNS for the DAY and for His WRATH have been seen at the 6th seal. Is it any wonder then that they admit what they know - that they have just seen Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 fulfilled before their eyes and "the DAY of His wrath has come?" Then I see in Joel 1 that the cattle are perplexed because they have no pasture. The sheep also, for the FIRE has burned up all the grass of the pasture. I see that the first trumpet judgment is the final fulfillment of this prophecy. Joel continues with:

15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

I know the plan of the Lord, that when "that day" comes:

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Anyone with a lick of sense can see that God begins the destruction of the world with the Trumpet judgments...starting with 33% and moving to 100% in the vials.

Make no mistake here: The destruction begins with the earthquake at the 6th seal, and continues with the first trumpet judgment.


At best, it is wrath (hell) for them on an individual basis. However, it is not THE wrath of God. None of the trumpets, as far as I can see, are considered the wrath of God...or referred to as such by any heavenly source.

You are not seeing the Old Testament verses describing the Day of the Lord. It is GOD destroying the earth. God does not have to tell us in the trumpets that they are His wrath: He told us His wrath started WITH the trumpets. Does turning ANY of the sea into blood mean destruction?

Revelation 8:9
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

What is "destroyed?" Is it is not "destruction?" Remember Isaiah: "the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...33% of the sea is destroyed: it is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. It is a part of THE DAY of destruction and wrath. You can't get around it. You can't go under it. You can't go over it: it is THE DAY. If you cannot believe it begins at the earthquake, then believe it begins with the first trumpet. But EVERY trumpet comes with His wrath as a part of THE DAY.

However, when the vials are poured out there are MULTIPLE heavenly sources that are sure to let us know... These are His wrath. Revelation 15:1 Revelation 15:7 Revelation 16:7 Revelation 16:9 Revelation 16:19 Revelation 16:1.

The 7th trumpet is the last, trumpet and at that point, before the wrath of God...The church will be gathered away.

MYTH. NO gathering at the 7th trumpet. Find even ONE VERSE that tells us of a coming there.

Again it's real simple. Daniel 7:25 AC empowered by satan 3.5 years. Daniel 7:26 AC removed by the Lord and heavens armies, after 3.5 years.(wrath of God) Daniel 7:27 reign with Christ after the earth is "cleansed".

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years.(wrath of God) Daniel Prove it with scripture.... I can back up with scripture that the trumpets ARE the wrath of God. All you have is a theory.

keras said:

This idea is purely fictional and lifted straight from the Left Behind fiction books.
Bible prophecy states there is soon coming a devastating judgement of fire, that will destroy all the Lord's enemies in the Middle East. But all of His righteous people will be protected and will go to live in all of the Holy Land. THAT is the truth of our future and either you believe it now, or 'remain in the dark' yourself.

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Sorry, never read them, not even one. Have you counted how many times Jesus told us to WATCH? And what are we to watch for? HIS Coming, not the AC Beast's coming.

look: if you wish to wait a thousand years to see your mansion, fine: just don't try to talk others out of seeing theirs.
If you want to be left behind, fine. But don't try to talk others into being left behind. Life will be IMPOSSIBLE!

iamlamad said:

years.(wrath of God) Daniel Prove it with scripture.... I can back up with scripture that the trumpets ARE the wrath of God. All you have is a theory.

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You haven't proven anything.
no one is going anywhere at the sixth seal. Where do you get that idea from?

The final 3.5 years is in between the 6th and 7th trumpets we have the time line in Revelation 11:2-3. It (the final 3.5 years) ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, shortly after the witnesses are caught up. After the 7th trumpet the church will be caught up. 2 witnesses are part of the body of Christ, just like you and I. Because we know the 3.5 years ends at the 7th trumpet we know that's when the GT ends.


Besides, how many trumpets are there after the 7th trumpet?

Psalm3704 said in post 6330:

Do you know who the woman is in Revelation 12?

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Yes.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Psalm3704 said in post 6330 [in the signature]:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven?

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Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

Psalm3704 said in post 6330 [in the signature]:

People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

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Note that the rapture won't be just a going up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Postvieww said in post 6334:

Revelation 7:9

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

No evidence this is a resurrected church.

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That's right.

Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Postvieww said in post 6334:

Matthew 27:50-53

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Passage does not say these were resurrected as Jesus was, they could have been raised as was Lazarus.

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That's right.

For the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). And the dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Postvieww said in post 6335:

[Rev. 11] Vs 19 is the same wording as 16:18 . . .

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Regarding lightnings/voices/thunderings, note that these can occur more than once.

For example, while Revelation 11:19 is part of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that Revelation 8:5 occurs before the 1st trumpet (Revelation 8:7).

And Revelation 4:5 occurs before any of the seals have been unsealed (Revelation 6).

So Revelation 4:5, Revelation 8:5, and Revelation 11:19, are 3 separate instances of lightnings/voices/thunderings. The 1st instance occurs before the seals, the 2nd instance occurs before the subsequent trumpets, and the 3rd instance occurs before the subsequent vials, the plagues of which will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1),

Then Revelation 16:18 will occur as part of the 7th and last vial (Revelation 16:17).

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Regarding an earthquake, note that this can also occur more than once. For the 2nd woe/6th trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy 1/10 of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after the 2 witnesses are resuscitated and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:11-13). And there will be a subsequent earthquake after the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19). And then there will be yet another earthquake after the 7th vial is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial, the first 6 vials will occur in order (Revelation 16). Before all of these earthquakes, one will occur after the 7th seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the 1st trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the 6th seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

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Also, a miraculous hail will occur 3 separate times during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24: First at the 1st trumpet (Revelation 8:7), then years later at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15,19), and then months later at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:21). Also, after the tribulation and the subsequent 2nd coming and millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10), the divine defeat of which will include a hail (Ezekiel 38:22). God also sent hail as a judgment at different times in the Old Testament (Exodus 9:18, Joshua 10:11, Haggai 2:17).

iamlamad said in post 6340:

The only way to solve this is to show that there are TWO MORE comings: one He comes FOR His saints, and the next He comes WITH His saints.

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Note that Jesus' coming FOR his saints and WITH his saints will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

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iamlamad said in post 6343:

On the contrary, when many are left behind because they were not ready, watching and expecting, they will be SHOCKED to find they are left behind and the world turned dark. Then they will be forced to DIE for their faith.

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Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 6343:

On the contrary, when many are left behind because they were not ready, watching and expecting, they will be SHOCKED to find they are left behind and the world turned dark. Then they will be forced to DIE for their faith.

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Regarding some people being "left behind", are you thinking of Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 6343:

On the contrary, when many are left behind because they were not ready, watching and expecting, they will be SHOCKED to find they are left behind and the world turned dark. Then they will be forced to DIE for their faith.

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Regarding "watching", note that in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ's 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return, for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

iamlamad said:

No matter how hard either side tries to find a final DESTINATION from the gathering in the air"...

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Plain reading of 1 Thess 4:16-17 and other scriptures tells us:
1/ Jesus has left heaven and descended towards earth. He brings the souls of the martyrs with Him.
2/ He destroys the army of the AC at Armageddon and chains up Satan.
3/ He sends out His angels, Matthew 24:31, and they gather all the righteous living believers from around the earth.
4/ They all meet in our atmosphere and the marriage feast may take place then. Revelation 19:9
5/ They all go to Jerusalem, where some will stay and some will go to reign over other nations.
So the final destination of Jesus and His people, is incontrovertibly the earth.

iamlamad said:

Neither is YOURS....our did you miss that detail? What we are concerned with is the destination AFTER the meeting in the air.

Here is what I wrote:

"No matter how hard either side tries to find a final DESTINATION from the gathering in the air"...

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The answer comes from the angels who were present when Christ ascended into heaven.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How much plainer could it be?
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Fusion77 said:

You haven't proven anything.
no one is going anywhere at the sixth seal. Where do you get that idea from?

The final 3.5 years is in between the 6th and 7th trumpets we have the time line in Revelation 11:2-3. It (the final 3.5 years) ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, shortly after the witnesses are caught up. After the 7th trumpet the church will be caught up. 2 witnesses are part of the body of Christ, just like you and I. Because we know the 3.5 years ends at the 7th trumpet we know that's when the GT ends.


Besides, how many trumpets are there after the 7th trumpet?

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The entire 70th week spans from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet marking the MIDPOINT. So the final 3.5 years will be from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. Why try to rearrange a perfect book? That just shows that you don't understand it.

The pretrib rapture will SURELY be somewhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 21. I guess you don't know where it will be. If you study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, you will find it will come JUST BEFORE God's wrath. Of course you don't know the truth about where His wrath begins either. I can assure you, the very first trumpet will be a part of God's wrath: it will come as the first salvo to destroy the earth, which will be the START of the Day of the Lord. Of course that will be HIS WRATH. So the rapture MUST come before the first trumpet - and it does. But it also comes the moment the great earthquake at the 6th seal begins shaking the ground. The ground shakes because the Dead In Christ just shook it as they were changed from death lying in a grave to a resurrection body. That event, the dead in Christ rising, will cause a world wide earthquake. Can you find an earthquake at the time of the 7th trumpet? NO! The earthquake of the two witnesses will in reality be the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial that ends the week. The earthquake in verse 11:19 does not count either, because it is a prophetic earthquake: there will be no earthquakes in heaven!

keras said:

Plain reading of 1 Thess 4:16-17 and other scriptures tells us:
1/ Jesus has left heaven and descended towards earth. He brings the souls of the martyrs with Him.
2/ He destroys the army of the AC at Armageddon and chains up Satan.
3/ He sends out His angels, Matthew 24:31, and they gather all the righteous living believers from around the earth.
4/ They all meet in our atmosphere and the marriage feast may take place then. Revelation 19:9
5/ They all go to Jerusalem, where some will stay and some will go to reign over other nations.
So the final destination of Jesus and His people, is incontrovertibly the earth.

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Sorry but you missed it. 1 Thes. Does not tell us ANYTHING about your point 2. You ad libbed that part.
Point 2 can be found in Rev. 19.

In 1 Thes. 4 Paul DOES NOT TELL US a final destination. Period. That was my point. It is not there. No matter how hard a pretribber looks for a direction to heaven, IT IS NOT THERE. No matter how hard a posttribber looks for a direction down to earth IT IS NOT THERE.

Therefore the final direction AFTER the meeting in the air MUST come from other scriptures. Pretrib points to John 14 - and with good reason. Posttrib points to Matthew 24 for no reason at all except a gathering. There is no scripture anywhere to prove that gathering is Paul's gathering, but there are scriptures that prove it is NOT.

BABerean2 said:

The answer comes from the angels who were present when Christ ascended into heaven.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How much plainer could it be?
.

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Your logic if flawed. OF COURSE HE WILL in like manner return: that is God's word and can NEVER be broken. But you cannot prove that from 1 Thes. 4 Jesus will then drop down from the air to the earth. No one has ever proved that point from scripture. It can only be erroneously guessed at by imagining that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture.

iamlamad said:

The entire 70th week spans from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet marking the MIDPOINT. So the final 3.5 years will be from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. Why try to rearrange a perfect book? That just shows that you don't understand it.

The pretrib rapture will SURELY be somewhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 21. I guess you don't know where it will be. If you study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, you will find it will come JUST BEFORE God's wrath. Of course you don't know the truth about where His wrath begins either. I can assure you, the very first trumpet will be a part of God's wrath: it will come as the first salvo to destroy the earth, which will be the START of the Day of the Lord. Of course that will be HIS WRATH. So the rapture MUST come before the first trumpet - and it does. But it also comes the moment the great earthquake at the 6th seal begins shaking the ground. The ground shakes because the Dead In Christ just shook it as they were changed from death lying in a grave to a resurrection body. That event, the dead in Christ rising, will cause a world wide earthquake. Can you find an earthquake at the time of the 7th trumpet? NO! The earthquake of the two witnesses will in reality be the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial that ends the week. The earthquake in verse 11:19 does not count either, because it is a prophetic earthquake: there will be no earthquakes in heaven!

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Are you seriously trying to say that the final 3.5 years doesn't happen between the 6th and 7th trumpets? Revelation 11:2-3 run concurrently and end just before the 7th trumpet. But, you're saying they don't? Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 11:19 both mention great earthquakes.


How could you ever say the 2 witnesses aren't caught up just before the 7th trumpet? Revelation 11:12 Revelation 11:15 then the 7th angel sounded. How many trumpets are there after the 7th anyways? How many more until we get to the last, according to your belief?


Really it doesn't matter to me, as I know the truth. The danger is you willgive other people false hope. You yourself should be prepared, for what truly awaits. In 5 years, probably less, you'll understand.

iamlamad said:

Your logic if flawed. OF COURSE HE WILL in like manner return: that is God's word and can NEVER be broken. But you cannot prove that from 1 Thes. 4 Jesus will then drop down from the air to the earth. No one has ever proved that point from scripture. It can only be erroneously guessed at by imagining that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture.

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The proof is in Post #6333 which shows Christ returns on the "Day of the Lord", because 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 are linked together by the word "sleep".


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


However, you cannot accept it because it destroys John Nelson Darby's doctrine.

Therefore, you must ignore the verse instead of attempting to explain how it fits your doctrine.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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