Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Short Timer said:

Where else are they going to be????

Eight people survived Noah flood, but nobody, not one single person, can or would survive the trib, except.

the number who does survive is so small a child can write the number.

I see interpretation of the trib as if it's just another world war like all the others we had, two "worldly forces" with nations siding up against the other.

But the trib is when this "Spiritual war" becomes an "Open physical war" between God and Satan, a time such as never been before or ever will be again,

And people believe the Body of Christ/Holy Ghost is going to be left to fight in this war with the devil/AC given power/dominion to prevail over them and wiped them/church out right along with everyone else.

Do you think anyone who believes the devil or any of his demons can have power over "God in the flesh" and his "Spirit",

Really knows/understand anything whatsoever about the scriptures??????

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I see we look at the trib as spiritual more so than physical,that I agree....I don't see it becoming physical,perse,as deception is mental rather than physical,and that's what I feel the trib is all about...

in light of Christ telling us to fear not those who can kill the body,Im not understanding where you see a need for a rapture...

It would'nt matter if all Christians wre killed during this time,they still return with Christ,and is that not at His 2nd coming...So like I said,I still cant see how you get a rapture....

I guess our difference is,I see those who die coming back with Christ because they died, yet you see them coming back with Him because they were raptured....

Postvieww said:

Lamad in post 2921 Lamad in red

“Short Timer really did not do this justice. Let's look at your verse:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [both groups mentioned] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

" I saw thrones, and they sat upon them" This shows us a part of the first resurrection: it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" - seated on thrones. There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected....all we see here is that they are now (having been resurrected) acting as judges.

Help me out here. Sounds like you contradict yourself here. “There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” yet you proclaim “it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib"”. No timing given but it was definitely before the “trib”. It is this type of interpretation that causes so many different opinions on this forum.

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded There is no timing information given - as to when this resurrection occured. All we know is that it DID occur.

These two groups shown are all there in heaven, having been resurrected into NEW bodies!

How did you determine this is in heaven? Christ has already returned to earth with his armies, Rev 19:11-16. Rev 20:1 “ And I saw an angel come down from heaven.” So Christ has returned from heaven with His armies, the angel came down from heaven to bind satan for a 1000 years and you place thrones with raptured saints back in heaven??? Please explain how you get Rev 20:4 back into heaven. Looks like you are taking great liberties with John’s God given order.

So all these are a part of the first or "primary" resurrection. In fact, Jesus Himself was a part of this "First Resurrection." It is the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection, only for the righteous. the only OTHER resurrection is the second, for the damned.”

Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth. I would love to see the scriptural references for all of those resurrections for the righteous dead. Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day. Paul wrote of only one 1 Corin 15:23-24, at His coming at the end. Paul described the same resurrection in 1 Corin 15 :51-52 at the last trump. As pointed out above you have made assumptions and statements about the passage you quoted that cannot be supported with scripture.

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You are right, they are not in heaven, they are on earth, but in resurrection bodies. Good point! I was in error there. Thanks for pointing that out. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is proof. His reign will be on earth.

“There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” This is true. John does not give us that information in Rev. 20. That was my intended meaning, NO TIME GIVEN in Rev. 20. I should have made that clearer.
it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" I base this on other scriptures, not on Rev. 20

Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth.
You are stretching. Actually, there WILL BE another: John tells us there are TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. The first of the two is the primary one, being for the righteous. Do you disagree? I guess not.

Since there ARE only two, one for the righteous and one for the sinner, then ALL HUMANS must fit into one or the other. Do you wish to put Jesus into the "second death" resurrection? I don't think so. No, He was the FIRSTFRUITS of the "first" or primary resurrection.

You know as well as I do that John tells us the second death resurrection will be 1000 years after the primary resurrection for the righteous. How does that fit with your statement " Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day"

Can you understand that Daniel and Jesus were summarizing - not giving specifics? When we get to Rev. 20, we get all the facts: two resurrections with 1000 years between them.

If you look west from Burlington Colorado on a clear day, you see the frontal range of mountains. For all you know, they may be only a few miles in depth, east to west. However, when you start up into them on Hwy 70, by the time you get to Copper Mountain, you see there was a whole lot of "mountain" you could not see from Burlington. It is that was with prophecy. From 500 years away, God does not give all the details. John gave us details. Does this make what Daniel wrote "wrong?" No! Daniel did not see the 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner.

What I want to know is, since I know that you know about the 1000 years, why you would you write what you did? Do you not believe John about the 1000 years?

Riberra said:

Two years ago I have heard an INSIDE VOICE telling me to verify myself in the Bible about a passage that I have seen in a book (The Cosmic Conspiracy By Stan Deyo) which I was sure was refererring to the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.
The passage in the book was:

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I know now that these verses do not refer to what the book was talking about.... quite the contrary.
So, if you pray to be TAKEN to where these folks will go... Hmmm ...you better to think about it twice before making your choice....I prefer to be left to be caught up in the "Cloud" (of witnesses /resurrected Saints) to meet Jesus in the air when Jesus will gather the elect(Saints)still alive and remain unto His coming and forever be with Him when he touch the Olive Mount to reign with Him on the Earth.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

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Luke did not tell us to pray to be "taken." He told us to pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE.

How interesting! You hear "voices" too.

Short Timer said:

"ALL" Deceased/Rapture/Martyred saints are in heaven, and all are part of the "Cloud" (of witnesses) Jesus return in,

There are no Righteous souls still in a grave waiting for Jesus to return, they come "With him",

Unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a "grave", from Heaven, yes.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Re 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Re 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

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Let's rehearse what you wrote:
In the "First Resurrection" all Rapture/deceased saints are "Resurrected"..."From Heaven", they come "With Jesus".
and all unsaved dead, stay dead,
"NOBODY" is resurrected "from a grave" in the "First Resurrection".

So what really happens? NO ONE is "resurrected" in heaven, for they are alive there. By very definition of "resurrection" it is the DEAD coming to life. You and I both know this is referring to the BODIES of the saints, not to the spirits. So they DON'T get "resurrected" from heaven, they get resurrected from the GRAVE where their body was put. The body flies up into the air (the dead in Christ rise...) and the spirit/soul that Christ brings with Him rejoins with the risen body. THAT is "resurrection." Of course as the body is risen it is CHANGED to immortality.

There are no Righteous souls still in a grave... Agreed, but souls don't RISE. Resurrection is speaking of the BODY not the soul.

Do you agree?

Short Timer said:

Jesus was God in the flesh, but Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, God can't be tempted to sin/die, Jesus was tempted/died.

So, depending on the "Context" of your interpretation, He was God, but he wasn't God.

The Holy spirit was sent in "Jesus name", not the "Father's name", so the "spirit" is the "ghost of Jesus", my sheep hear "My voice".

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, but it haint when the "Ghost of Jesus" is speaking.

You'll find this "It is, but it haint" interpretations throughout scripture, depending on how it is being interpreted.

And it's the major cause of most failures to understand the scriptures,

The interpretation/separation/application of the "Trinity" is the most obvious, people can't understand how Jesus and God can be so different, but still be the same one.

And the proof of that is their failure to recognize the differences between the way God operates and Jesus operates,
and those differences prevents both from operating at the same time. same time frame,

God operate with people under the "Law and prophets", "Signs and wonders", Jesus operate under Grace from law and no signs and wonders.

If people understood the Trinity, they would know that Jesus doesn't deal with Israel during the trib just by the method being used.

Israel doesn't believe God has a "Jesus side to him", and Christians don't believe Jesus has a "God side to him" either.

Whatever God is in their mind, can't change.

The same way Israel couldn't believe God changed into Jesus for the church,
Christians don't believe Jesus is going to change back into God for Israel/trib.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the "Holy spirit", but it haint, as long as Jesus is speaking.

And at the "last trump" of the Ghost, the Holy Spirit will return.

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"Jesus was God in the flesh, but Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, God can't be tempted to sin/die, Jesus was tempted/died." What kind of nonsense is this? Why write something so confusing to new readers?

Make it SIMPLE: God [the Father] remained in heaven and remained just as He has always been.
The WORD of God, or the REDEEMER, the 2nd person of the triune Godhead, LAID ASIDE HIS GODLY ATTRIBUTES to be born in a flesh and blood body. With a flesh body OF COURSE He could be temped, for He laid aside every aspect of God, such as omnipresence, all powerful, etc. But, while Jesus was on earth being tempted as we are, God the Father was on the throne in heaven and remained IMPOSSIBLE to be tempted.

So, depending on the "Context" of your interpretation, He was God, but he wasn't God. NONSENSE! He was the very same being that said, LET THERE BE LIGHT. He was the very same voice that said "I AM THAT I AM." He always was God, and always will be God. But for 32 years He laid aside His godly attributes.

The Holy spirit was sent in "Jesus name", not the "Father's name", so the "spirit" is the "ghost of Jesus", my sheep hear "My voice".

MORE NONSENSE! That is very faulty reasoning. Jesus had no "ghost." The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT aspect of God, and so of course the spirit aspect of Jesus - Jesus being the BODY part of God. It was NOT the Holy Spirit inside the body of Jesus, it was the WORD of God, the 2nd person of the trinity, not the 3rd part. When He was baptized, and the Holy Spirt came, TWO parts of the trinity were together, the body and the spirit, but both were under the leadership of God the Father. By the way, EVERYTHING is done on earth in Jesus name.

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, but it haint when the "Ghost of Jesus" is speaking. More nonsense: gobbledygook. OF COURSE the Holy Spirit is the holy Ghost. Ghost and spirit here have the same meaning. The "ghost of Jesus" does not exist except in your mind. Jesus only spoke what He heard the Father say. Jesus did not have a "ghost." Your human reasoning is creating a 4th part of the God head. That is nothing less than SILLY.

God operate with people under the "Law and prophets", "Signs and wonders", Jesus operate under Grace from law and no signs and wonders. Jesus had MANY "signs and wonders." Every miracle Jesus did was a SIGN that He came from the Father. Next, JESUS AND GOD ARE ONE AND THE SAME BEING, and Jesus ONLY DID what He saw the FAther do. So far I cannot agree with one thing on this post.

The same way Israel couldn't believe God changed into Jesus for the church,
Christians don't believe Jesus is going to change back into God for Israel/trib.
This is MORE NONSENSE the way you have written it. There are much better ways to get your thought across. God did not "change" into Jesus and Jesus will not "change" into God. GET THIS STRAIGHT: Jesus and God the Father are TWO ASPECTS of ONE GOD - an UNCHANGING God. Jesus was God when He was conceived. Jesus was God when He was circumcised. Jesus was God doing miracles. Jesus was God hanging on the cross. And He will be God when He returns.
I hope you get it this time. JESUS HAS NO GHOST. STOP WRITING SUCH NONSENSE.

Riberra said:

In essence what you are saying is that Paul was knowing about a coming of Jesus pre-tribulation to rapture the Church in Heaven that Jesus himself was not aware of....
This is Jesus who talked at the Olivet Discourse about His coming after the Tribulation and the gathering of the elects at the sound of a trumpet ... Matthew 24:29-31.

--Do you believe that Paul was not there at the Olivet Discourse ?--

Jesus also who warn us in Matthew 24:23-25 to not believe those who will say that He will return before that moment mentioned in
Matthew 24:29-31.
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a Great Sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Conclusion, you and the pre-trib crowd have twisted the meaning of what Paul is saying.When Paul writed UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD he was referring to the coming of Jesus after the Tribulation that Jesus have talked about at the Olivet Discourse !

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When are you going to learn? Jesus did not know the future. He laid aside His Godly attributes and said ONLY what He heard the Father say. He only DID what He saw the Father do. Did you miss the fact that Jesus did not even know who touched Him? He was a MAN. Do you know the future? Do I know the future? NO!

Can you find a verse that TELLS YOU Paul was there? I doubt seriously if Paul was there. He HATED Christ at the time.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders

Can you find in these words anywhere that Jesus could not come BEFORE this coming and just not mention it?
Just to help you out, Jesus is NOT warning that HE might not come, He is warning that FALSE Christs will come. When He comes for the rapture, it will all be over in ONE INSTANT: no one is going to be saying, "here is Christ" to someone else. there will be NO TIME to say anything.

Conclusion, you and the pre-trib crowd have twisted the meaning of what Paul is saying.When Paul writed UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD he was referring to the coming of Jesus after the Tribulation that Jesus have talked about at the Olivet Discourse

Only YOU CAN'T PROOF THAT. So you are only blowing in the wind. You do seem to have a wild imagination.

iamlamad said:

"NOBODY" is resurrected "from a grave" in the "First Resurrection".

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Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(First Resurrection)

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Second Resurrection)

.

Short Timer said:

God uses people, but the ones he calls, he teaches, and sent the spirit to be a second witness to the truth.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

There's only one reason a person can hear the truth and not recognize it as being the truth, and that's because they can't hear the "second witnesses", the spirit.

I'm surprised by how few people have enough experience with the spirit to know how it operate,

Part of the falling away I guess.

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I'm surprised by how few people have enough experience with the spirit to know how it operate,

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is a HE!

BABerean2 said:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(First Resurrection)

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Second Resurrection)

.

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I agree. I still believe in miracles!

Short Timer said:

Revelation chapters are not in chronological order, but the only way you could know that is to know the timeline laid out in scripture.

Satan is cast out of heaven as soon as the church arrives, or after the "HE" is taken out of the way, after the fulness of the Gentiles.

Israel doesn't attend the "Son's marriage" to the mostly "Gentiles Church", the church going to that marriage is the rapture.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son,(Jesus)
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mt 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king(God) came in to see the guests, (Rapture church) he saw there a man (Satan) which had not on a wedding garment:
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Do you know what the "Symbols" of the "Sun', "Moon" "Flood" represent in Rev 12???

And why is the woman only protected for 1260 days, that is only half of the trib, what happens in the other half???

How can Satan persecute/make war with the woman if she is "protected"???

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Revelation chapters are not in chronological order, but the only way you could know that is to know the timeline laid out in scripture. MORE NONSENSE! YOu cannot possibly prove this statement.

You would be wise to learn this axiom on Revelation:
ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

Satan is cast out of heaven as soon as the church arrives, or after the "HE" is taken out of the way, after the fulness of the Gentiles.

More nonsense! Satan is cast out of heaven at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Why then? It is because the earth-lease: the book in the hand of the Father, with the 7 seals, has RUN OUT. God gave Adam 6000 years and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the 6000 years will be FINISHED. Satan only usurped Adam's lease, so suddenly his presense is ILLEGAL, and Michael will go after him and cast him down. Michael has been waiting for that 7th trumpet for a long time. NO WONDER in Dan. 12:1 Michael stands up: He is about to go to WAR!

Just so you know, the group too large to number in Rev. 7 IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH. So we will get there about 3 1/2 years before Satan is cast down.

Israel doesn't attend the "Son's marriage" to the mostly "Gentiles Church", the church going to that marriage is the rapture. The Old Testament saints will most certainly be guests at the marriage. That is why it is delayed until after the 70th week has finished: waiting on their resurrection.

And why is the woman only protected for 1260 days, that is only half of the trib, what happens in the other half??? The woman flees upon seeing the abomination that divides the week. So of course her time of fleeing will be the last half of the week. Please take note she flees in 12:6, which is immediately after the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint.

How can Satan persecute/make war with the woman if she is "protected"??? That is very easy: the "woman" meaning those living in Judea will flee into the wilderness and God will PROTECT her for time, times and half of time, or 3 1/2 years. Neither the Beast nor the False Prophet, backed by Satan, will be able to touch her. HOWEVER, they will certainly go after the rest of the Jews, Hebrews, and ALL who refuse to worship the idol or take the mark.

Riberra said:

Wrong.
The Bible talk about a GATHERING and Caught up of the Saints to MEET Jesus in the air above the ground unto His only coming yet to come (The Parousia).... not a LEAVING of the Saints to somewhere else outside the atmosphere of the Earth, nor into another dimension of space and time ....nor to the Third Heaven where God reside.

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Yet, that is EXACTLY where Jesus went to prepare homes for us! WAKE UP!

Riberra said:

Do you notice that what is written in Revelation 14 come AFTER that the MAN OF SIN /SATAN is throwing out of Heaven down to Earth mentioned in Revelation 12 and after that the Beast take full power on the Earth by implementing the mark and adoration of his person or his image mentioned in Revelation 13...in other words you are saying that your "rapture" if it have anything to do with the reaping will happen AFTER that the Man of Sin is revealed....

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I agree with you on the Chronology: the harvesting shown in Rev. 14 is NOT referring to the pretrib rapture. It is referring to the days ahead which will be days of GT. Many will die to make it to heaven. That is the harvest of the righteous. Many will die at the battle of Armageddon: that is the harvest of the wicked, as well as the sheep and goat judgment and the parable of tares.

iamlamad said:

Luke did not tell us to pray to be "taken." He told us to pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE.

How interesting! You hear "voices" too.

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I said "an inner voice" not something outside.However that could be only me questioning the validity of the pre-trib rapture theory presented as a fact -to easy to be true-was the feeling (inner voice )that have makes me questioning the validity of the doctrine ..The thing that was good is that after it have happened my interest to the Bible (KJV version,that i find very inspiring) and Biblical prophecies have never ceased to grown... Note that i would really like that the pre-trib rapture be true ....for sure the concept must be very popular and very attractive in the modern Churches of today since more than 100 years...that it is teached.Popularity and attractivity of a 130 years old new doctrine does not make it true.
Based on the fact that Paul known of only one coming of Jesus yet to come.... the coming that Jesus was speaking at the Olivet Discourse.Matthew 24:29-31.

So ,when someone try to makes me believe that Paul was aware about a special coming of Jesus pre-tribulation to rapture the Church to Heaven that Jesus himself did not know ...

tanzel said:

I'm not making a mistake...you have to pay close attention and ask question, instead of assuming you know and I don't. I never said Resurrection strictly means coming from the grave, so now you begin to build up false allegations. Lets focus on a verse or two. Lets go to I Thessalonians (4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

These verses tells a lot, for those with understanding. Paul is telling us that those who are asleep (dead) in Jesus, this means those who kept the faith and the commandments of God (Jesus) which is the saints. Jesus will bring with him. Also those who are alive and remain will come with him (Jesus). Lets quickly go into Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Lets continue...(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

These verse also tells a lot, for those with understanding. Jesus himself is going to shout and descend, which means come down, and with the trump of God (which is the angel). Lets go into 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Jesus will descend and shout, and the trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise first. Not every body!

Lets continue...(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice Paul say...then we which are alive and remain, cause some people (saints) will still be alive a the coming of Jesus. So...now, the dead and or the saints thats still alive and didn't die, will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds. Didn't we read that the Lord will descend, which means the Lord is coming down. The dead is in the grave, so they coming from the earth. Lets go into Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Again...not everybody who dead is coming in the first Resurrection. These are the prophets, apostle, and those who keep the faith and the commandments of God. Lets go again into Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I could of added much more, but I wanted to stick to the point. I understand most will not see this, because in this world people want to be more right then learning how to get salvation, to come up in the first resurrection...not be Rapture...First Resurrection.

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This post is a MESS of confusion of mixing up time. You put them together as if they all happen at the same time, yet there is at least a thousand years between the timing of some of these scriptures. Did you ever hear of CONTEXT?

Here is an example of taking scriptures out of contest:
Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
1 Thes 5 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Anyone can pull a scripture out of context and make it SEEM like the bible is saying something. This is usually done to fit a preconceived theory.

Now lets start with 1 Thes. We must find timing in the CONTEXT, not a thousand years later! IN CONTEXT Paul tells us the resurrection/rapture will be the trigger for the start of God's wrath and the Day of the Lord. And he tells us, God will not make an appointment for us with His wrath, but INSTEAD, we will get "salvation" and get raptured OUT. Those NOT caught up and alive will face the "sudden destruction" beginning of The Day of the Lord. Where is this in the chronology of Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. The 70th week "trib" will not begin until the 7th seal.

Since John tells us that there are only TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the sinner, then Jesus had to take part in one of them, the first, or primary resurrection. The the pretrib rapture will be the next wave to take part in the first or primary resurrection.

Therefore your post is nonsense.

tanzel said:

If you have a different spirit on you this would so simple for you to understand.

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Sorry, but the miss-understanding is on your side. I KNOW whom I have believed. And I know what the definition of "resurrection" is.

tanzel said:

You don't have the fruits to understand, your mind is blinded by the simplest verses and scriptures...its almost unbelievable to me, but then again I understand why!

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Instead of complaining, SHOW US THE VERSE or WORDS in 1 Thes 4 where Jesus comes down to earth. You KNOW you can't do it. So instead of showing BY SCRIPTURE where I am wrong, you resort to sidestepping.

Why not try showing us BY SCRIPTURE and your take on that scripture where we have missed it?

tanzel said:

Daniels is to deep for you to understand...sorry

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You were caught and won't admit it. You want to divide a half of week and still end up with two halves. Now you know that is impossible. WHEN we get to Seal 7 and the week begins, there will be TWO HALVES TOGETHER in the future. You will probably be here to see it all, so you will then know it is truth. Oh! Wait: you probably will refuse the mark and lose your head. So you will not see the entire week from down here.

kingskid said:

I do understand the devil can not have spiritual dominion over the body of Christ.

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An amazing revelation! Yet, others on this thread don't see it that way. They think God will leave the church on earth during the days of GT, and they will survive. God says differently: He says the Beast will have authority Over the saints. I believe Him.

iamlamad said:

An amazing revelation! Yet, others on this thread don't see it that way. They think God will leave the church on earth during the days of GT, and they will survive. God says differently: He says the Beast will have authority Over the saints. I believe Him.

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Who will make the (supposed)rapture of the Church before the Tribulation ?Jesus said during the Olivet discourse that His coming will be after the Tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31

You know surely that Paul and Luke were there at the Olivet discourse and have heard Jesus talking about only one coming yet to come.

iamlamad said:

An amazing revelation! Yet, others on this thread don't see it that way. They think God will leave the church on earth during the days of GT, and they will survive. God says differently: He says the Beast will have authority Over the saints. I believe Him.

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But you miss the fact there will be two groups of His people at the start of the GT, call them 'church, Israelites or the elect', in Daniel 11:32 there will be those who forsake the Covenant and those who keep their faith in God.
About half and half and the former must stay Israel, Zechariah 14:1-2, where the AC will rule for 3 1/2 years. Daniel 7:25 The latter are taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14