Why do nice guys finish last?

klewlis · Feb 18, 2004

stray bullet said:
Did you really need to throw in a little dig?

I didn't mean it as a dig, honest. I work in a field in which it is necessary to speak plainly about relational issues... sometimes I carry it into other areas of life.

But I don't want to argue about this...

Matthew Hobbs · Feb 18, 2004

Saxman said:
*snip a bunch of stuff from Saxman*

Dude, thank you for beautifully illustrating my point. If that's the kind of sad, depressing attitude you display to girls, no wonder you haven't had a lot of luck. Ever ask a girl out by saying "You'll probably say no, but would you like to go out to dinner?" or something similar? I'm betting 95% yes, and if I'm right, that's the problem.

Around when I was 15, I figured out that the nerdy, shy kid thing wasn't working. So I got contacts, started paying attention to things like my posture, hairstyle, fashion, etc. I stopped tearing myself down inside, and started listening to people around me.

RELAX! There's one thing you must remember:

Girls are people, too! Being able to talk to them, to be actively engaged in what they have to say about themselves and the world, is so incredibly simple. Aside from a few differences in plumbing, they're just like you and me! They have the same fears, joys, doubts, and worries as your mates.

Nice guys do not finish last. We may not get the glitzy bimbos that Hollywood tells us all men should want, but we most definitely attract the friendly, beautiful, smart, and sweet girls who are what real women truly are.

stray bullet · Feb 18, 2004

klewlis said:
I didn't mean it as a dig, honest. I work in a field in which it is necessary to speak plainly about relational issues... sometimes I carry it into other areas of life.

But I don't want to argue about this...

No worries... it's true I have a lot of issues, but I didn't mean to come off argumentative in my posts.

secretdawn · Feb 18, 2004

Saxman said:
I don't understand it, I had yet another rejection last night from a girl who was an good acquantaince of mine. Her words "I like you a lot, but I would rather we stay friends". It seems like this is the 20th time this year I have heard something to this effect.

Being Valentines Day it was especially depressing to see lots of couples enjoying themselves, hence intensifying these feelings.

It seems that nowadays girls just don't seem to like gentlemen, and I see even Christian girls with rude arrogant jerks. I am polite, well-mannered, well-spoken, gentle, quiet, considerate and complimentary without being insincere, as well as being fairly good looking and intelligent. But despite knowing lots of girls not one of them seems to be attracted to me, and I have asked out a good proportion of them.

Being single does not bother me too much, but it would be nice to be able to take a date to formals like the ball I went too last night, and to have female company for theatre, jazz evenings and concerts that my male friends don't go for. Yet I am near to despairing. The chances of a girl being a) Single b) Attracted to me and c) Reasonably pretty and intelligent
seem to be extremely slim.

This is going to sound ignorant, and it is...most likely they think you're weak...women want a strong man, who is sensitive on the "inside"

Saxman · Feb 18, 2004

Secret dawn, what do you mean by a strong man? I think you are probably right when you think that maybe women think I am weak.

Matthew, while those are not the words I use, maybe I do sound a little nervous when asking girls out and tend to focus on the things that could go wrong like she has a boyfriend, won't want to spend time with me after she rejects me, or will be offended. I like the way you make it sound so simple to just turn from a shy, nerdy kid into a confident young man.

Maybe I had better try and see the similarities between men and women which I am finding very difficult. Having been surrounded by guys all my life in school and at home (i have 3 brothers) I can say that I find girls very different from men. They don't seem to like discussing politics, economics, sport, current affairs, and arguing about things, whereas these are the things that i tend to talk about with my friends. My interests tend to be male dominated, e.g. chess, debating, jazz, rugby and it seems I can rarely find common ground with a girl or anything to discuss.

Probably the only thing that I share in common with some girls is my faith, but as a fairly new Christian this is not strong enough to act as a bond with girls.

Matthew Hobbs · Feb 18, 2004

Sax -

1. ALWAYS check to see if a girl has a boyfriend before asking her out. Unless you're talking about meeting a girl in a coffeehouse or some other setting and randomly asking if she'd like to meet later for dinner, you need to do your research.

2. It IS easy to change yourself - or at least it was for me. And I, too, grew up in a male household, although I went to mixed gender schools.

3. My interests helped - I was active in drama in high school, etc. But I was also in political clubs and quiz teams - all of which included many lovely young ladies.

4. Ask a female friend for help - ask her what you could do to become more attractive to other girls. If you don't have any female friends close enough to discuss this with, well, chances are you're not ready for a romantic girlfriend, either.

5. Women are NOT dramtically different from men. That's a problem of perception. You need to change your point of view - get out and mingle more, on a friendly, social, platonic level. Join clubs, go to meetings, etc. where there will be females who share your interests. Do NOT instantly "fall in love" with any of them. You need training wheels before you learn to ride - talk to them one-on-one, as PEOPLE first, and girls second.

klewlis · Feb 18, 2004

Saxman said:
They don't seem to like discussing politics, economics, sport, current affairs, and arguing about things, whereas these are the things that i tend to talk about with my friends.

oh, you just don't know the right girls! many of us love to talk about these things.

I recommend getting to know more women on a friendship level for awhile, before asking them out. Spend some time simply becoming comfortable with women in general and the differences between them. Then you can better evaluate what kind of woman you want to be with. I think that if you don't even know whether a girl has a boyfriend, you don't know her well enough to be asking her out.

Matthew Hobbs · Feb 18, 2004

klewlis said:
I recommend getting to know more women on a friendship level for awhile, before asking them out. Spend some time simply becoming comfortable with women in general and the differences between them. Then you can better evaluate what kind of woman you want to be with. I think that if you don't even know whether a girl has a boyfriend, you don't know her well enough to be asking her out.

Wow! We were typing each other's thoughts at the same time!

Saxman · Feb 18, 2004

Mmm. That may be the problem I really don't know that many girls that well. I have a lot of female acquantainces but none that I actually spend a lot of time outside say classes, societies clubs etc. In general I know a lot of people but very few of them on a friendship level. Being quite shy makes it difficult for me to get to know people. I know you say you got over your shyness but this is not just adolescent shyness I have had it for as long as I can remember. I can talk to people and don't blush or stutter, but I find it really hard to have conversations with people and think of what to say etc.

klewis I do know one girl who likes all these things and with her conversation seems to flow very easily. She is in my debate club though and we generally go in a group after debating and argue about politics, and today for the first time it was just the two of us, and we had another good discussion. But I fear that things may become awkward if I ask her out and she rejects me. Unfortunately the few girls that I have asked out went all weird on me after I asked them out and stopped being friendly to me and avoided me.

secretdawn · Feb 18, 2004

Your basic Johnnie Depp formula...

take a harsh "i just don't care" exterior, a wry sense of humor, mix in sweet nothings (while in private), a dash danger, and a tsp. of deep thoughts

bake for one hour on 450 and cool

that is the recipe for the "typical" girl's perfect man (looks may vary)

by the way, i am out of the norm, i tend to go towards the jim carry, jason biggs, dork type guys...(i love a goofy sense of humor and a big brain)

klewlis · Feb 18, 2004

Saxman said:
klewis I do know one girl who likes all these things and with her conversation seems to flow very easily. She is in my debate club though and we generally go in a group after debating and argue about politics, and today for the first time it was just the two of us, and we had another good discussion. But I fear that things may become awkward if I ask her out and she rejects me. Unfortunately the few girls that I have asked out went all weird on me after I asked them out and stopped being friendly to me and avoided me.

So don't think about asking her out right now. Focus on getting to know her better and building your friendship. You don't have to ask out every girl that catches your attention. Wait. Take it slowly. Be picky. Only ask a girl out if you know her well and have a good friendship with her and could possibly see yourself marrying her someday.

KeilCoppes · Feb 18, 2004

Sax - just a side tip, and it may seem totally screwy and be rejected by all the women here. One of the most attractive guys in the world is the guy who has no worries about how he's doing with the women and is unique and himself. The outcome of the date is not an issue because he's not keeping score - he's just there to enjoy the evening or day with someone and has hopes they enjoy as well. If they don't, well, there are other times, and a date is not the world. And he's not above friendly teasing of anyone just to bring a smile. But remember, it has to be for real! Any worry, or expectation, and it will echo all around you. Uncertainty shouts even in silence, confidence smiles in everything you do or are. So just let it go. No personal goal = no worries = no doubt = no pressure = comfortable and enjoyable => attractive! (of course, if you're a floormat or have no personality or interests of your own.... it'll be a comfortable snooze)

(All right, ladies, score cards?)

ps - on the other hand, don't date people that would be a definite wrong choice for marriage.

Living4Him03 · Feb 18, 2004

Well said KC

Crain · Feb 19, 2004

This topic hits me hard. I know that we being christian males have had our hard times looking for the love of a woman. However, there are those girls that look for NICE GUYS. But we also tend to be very shy. I admit girls are very hard to get to know. But they also like to play (aka game). We just have to decide what game to play. Are we going to play God's game(the truth) or the World's game(lying). Then its aggressiveness, girls these look for the more aggressive male not the soft and very sensitive type. However you can be both. You could very aggressive and sensitive at times. But being sensitive all the time could send out the wrong signal. Then its just being yourself and try not to act a certain way around them. Just be yourself....

joshua_cheung · Feb 19, 2004

Saxman said:
I don't understand it, I had yet another rejection last night from a girl who was an good acquantaince of mine. Her words "I like you a lot, but I would rather we stay friends". It seems like this is the 20th time this year I have heard something to this effect.

Being Valentines Day it was especially depressing to see lots of couples enjoying themselves, hence intensifying these feelings.

It seems that nowadays girls just don't seem to like gentlemen, and I see even Christian girls with rude arrogant jerks. I am polite, well-mannered, well-spoken, gentle, quiet, considerate and complimentary without being insincere, as well as being fairly good looking and intelligent. But despite knowing lots of girls not one of them seems to be attracted to me, and I have asked out a good proportion of them.

Being single does not bother me too much, but it would be nice to be able to take a date to formals like the ball I went too last night, and to have female company for theatre, jazz evenings and concerts that my male friends don't go for. Yet I am near to despairing. The chances of a girl being a) Single b) Attracted to me and c) Reasonably pretty and intelligent
seem to be extremely slim.

Opinions only.

Do you show that you are brave? In some cases, brave makes you to speak out, against something.

Quiet and gentle is good. However, are you brave enough not to be quiet , gentle when you need to? Are you brave enough to ask the girl you want to be your girlfriend directly? Ask her to give you a chance to know her and let her to know you well? Not to ask for a date, but to have a chance to know her well.

crashedman · Feb 19, 2004

Hi,

Nice guys finish last because in our culture women like men who are rebellious, and who have the strength to control them.

Face it, they like to test out guys and see who is the stronger. In our society, it's the man who is traditionally seen as the hunter and the women who want to make them sweat for their affection.

I'm one of the classic 'nice guys' - I don't smoke, gamble, sleep around, go to nightclubs, and I always held the door open for women or pulled up their seat when sitting them around a table. I'd make them breakfast if they slept at my place overnight and always lend an ear to listen to their woes. I'd compliment them on their appearance and offer to pay for them if they went out. For one of them, I washed her car as a surprise and would vaccuum the house if I stayed there overnight.

Did that make her want to marry me and hold me above every other guy she'd known? No way! What do I get in return? A false accusation made about me by her, telling her folks that I had beat her up one night.

Basically guys, you have to follow your own heart. You have to take risks and sometimes go the extra mile to get what you want. Remember the story of Jacob and Rachel, and how his uncle Laban made him work and strain for 7 years before he could marry her?

There's an old song that goes 'choose your partners everyone. If you hesitate, the good ones are gone!'

Why is it that girls like the bad boys more than the 'nice guys'? Because they tend to be honest and open and can put their foot down if people step over the border with them. Women like men who are 'hard yakka', but they defintely don't like alcoholics and wife bashers (unless they are these airheads who think that by loving them they can cure them of their ailment....big mistake!!)

Crashedman

looksgood · Feb 19, 2004

LOL, I think there is a simple reason for this.

People are just plain stupid and blind lol. That goes for men and women.

But hey, as far as the saying nice guys finish last, remember this. "They that are last shall be first. And they that are first shall be last."

plum · Feb 19, 2004

Unless genius kicks me later, here's my 2 cents:

Rebellion periods lead to dumb relationships. Habits are formed. Nobody realizes there are better people out there for them. This perpetuates for generations. Only the lucky survive.

Saxman · Feb 19, 2004

Hi secretdawn: if I could get the dash of danger and the don't care exterior I think I have most of the elements of the Johnny Depp character, although I think much of his appeal is just that women like the swarthy, darkly handsome type, and I am just your average blondhaired, blue-eyed Anglo-Saxon.

KeilCoppes formula sounds topping. If I could get to that level of comfort and ease with girls it would be a lot easier.

klewis what is the best way to deepen a friendship with a girl. Most of the girls I am friendly with I know just on a surface acquantaince level through activities and societies.

Crashedman you sound very like me. Don't worry about the girl who made up lies about you, she isn't worth your time. Better you found out her true colours sooner rather than later.

Hi jason. As a minority right-wing conservative, to air the sorts of views I have in a largely socialist university shows I do have bravery. And for the most part I do say what i think. But this bravery deserts me when it comes to asking girls out etc.

klewlis · Feb 19, 2004

Saxman said:
klewis what is the best way to deepen a friendship with a girl. Most of the girls I am friendly with I know just on a surface acquantaince level through activities and societies.

Small group activities are the best start. Invite a few people (no more than 5 or 6) people over to your house to watch a movie or play games or something along those lines. Or take 3 friends and go sit in a coffee shop for a couple of hours. Or plan a small group picnic.

Small groups are the best because you can get to know everyone in the group and it is non-threatening for everyone. Discussion tends to be more meaningful than in large groups, but without the awkwardness of being one-on-one. This way you can get to know her better, she will know you better, plus the other friends involved will also be a huge bonus... and it doesn't have to be a big pressure thing about trying to impress a certain girl--instead, just hang out and relax and have fun. The rest, if there is mutual interest, will grow out of that.

Why do nice guys finish last?

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