Why do liberals give China a pass on the virus?

[Pavel Mosko]

Yeah, this. I neither like nor trust the Chinese government, but I haven't seen anything that suggests their behavior was any different from the sort of bungling and cover-up that is common among governments, including ours (both Federal and state). China just happened to be the source of the virus. What exactly is to be gained by spending a lot of energy blaming China, apart from providing a distraction from our own shortcomings?

It's because people do blame Trump for the virus. According to the University of South Hampton 95% of the virus could have been contained by China. That means all this face mask wearing, shelter at home stuff was pretty much preventable.

China may have prevented 95% of virus cases if it enacted measures after silenced whistleblower's warning | Hong Kong Free Press HKFP


I don't believe it is distracting but a question of narrative framing. e.g.- IF you look at Carona Virus deaths in New York lots of them can be traced to policies of Cuomo and Deblasio yet outside of some places like Fox News one would seldom ever hear about that.


And then there is the issue that China should be held accountable for this and all the other stuff that they have pulled over the last 30+ years that they have gotten away with.

 

[driewerf]

Hi pavel,

I also don't see anyone giving China a pass on this issue. However, there isn't any proof that China created this pandemic with some malice aforethought. It's just a virus that has come upon us much like HIV, MERS, SARS, Influenza A, B, and C. My home was just destroyed by a tornado. Is it my fault that my home lies in ruins? Should the governments of the world blame me for a tornado destroying my home?

If some proof can be found that China worked to release this virus onto the world with the intention of creating world chaos, then I'm all for 'blaming' China. However, according to the Scriptures, there is a horseman riding among us who is responsible for these things and I don't see that China should be blamed for the truth of the Scriptures.

HIV is believed to have started in Africa. Did we 'blame' the nation in Africa from which we believe it started? MERS is believed to have originated in the middle east, thus MERS stands for middle east respiratory syndrome. It is a form of corona virus just as Covid-19 is. Did we blame some country in the middle east for bringing it to life?

So, my question back to you is: Why do you feel it important that we handle the cause, or place of origin, of this outbreak any different than previous ones? Is there some reason that you know of that we should blame China for the tornado that destroyed my home?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

There are many suspissions that China withheld information that was crucial in battling the virus. When Italy was hit, a lot of European governments and scientists still taught it wasn't much worse of a flu and didn't take drastic measures. Italy is a very popular destination for skiing, so a lot of people from all over Europe went there and returned home infected.
With more accurate information from the Chinese government the spread of the virus could have been much slower.

 

[sfs]

It's because people do blame Trump for the virus.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

I don't believe it is distracting but a question of narrative framing. e.g.- IF you look at Carona Virus deaths in New York lots of them can be traced to policies of Cuomo and Deblasio yet outside of some places like Fox News one would seldom ever hear about that.

Personally, I certainly include both Cuomo and de Blasio among those leaders who bungled the beginnings of the outbreak, and I'd have to be both sedated and restrained before I'd ever watch Fox News. But how does focusing on China's errors help assign blame to NY politicians who made their own errors?

And then there is the issue that China should be held accountable for this and all the other stuff that they have pulled over the last 30+ years that they have gotten away with.

But if we do that, we should also start holding the US accountable for the stuff we've pulled as a nation, and I don't think we want to start doing that.

 

[TLK Valentine]

As a conservative and Trump supporter it looks to me that liberals in general and on the board seem to largely give China a pass when it comes to the virus. I see much more preoccupation with complaints on how Trump has handled it etc.

China doesn't determine US domestic policy -- unfortunately, that responsibility falls on Donald's shoulders.

What would you have us do? Go to war with China?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

ut if we do that, we should also start holding the US accountable for the stuff we've pulled as a nation, and I don't think we want to start doing that.

It doesn't pay to get into some kind of revenge feud with China, but it does pay when it comes to them "eating our lunch". On the morale front there are lots of things to tag the US with when it comes to wars and what have you. So yes I would kind of agree with you there.


But there are lots of reasons to not let other things go as far as our national interests are concerned. China has been eating out lunch since the Clinton Administration, e.g. the Cox report and them getting "favored nation status" and only Trump has made any real effort at curtailing this. If people believe that representative government is a good thing then more should be done to restrict China, until at least it loosens up on its human rights etc. As it stands right now, China has more affect on us culturally speaking getting Hollywood to follow its wishes, getting Democrats to take up its cause, than the U.S. has affected them in any practical way.

 

[Pommer]

Politicizing a public health crisis has scant benefits.

 

[Hank77]

I don't believe it is distracting but a question of narrative framing. e.g.- IF you look at Carona Virus deaths in New York lots of them can be traced to policies of Cuomo and Deblasio yet outside of some places like Fox News one would seldom ever hear about that.

Point me to a source in FoxNews.com and I be interested to read about it. Thanks.

But there are lots of reasons to not let other things go as far as our national interests are concerned. China has been eating out lunch since the Clinton Administration, e.g. the Cox report and them getting "favored nation status" and only Trump has made any real effort at curtailing this. If people believe that representative government is a good thing then more should be done to restrict China, until at least it loosens up on its human rights etc. As it stands right now, China has more affect on us culturally speaking getting Hollywood to follow its wishes, getting Democrats to take up its cause, than the U.S. has affected them in any practical way.

Is this a quote from a source or is it your own words?
If it's a quote please link to the source so I/we can read it in context and know who wrote.

 

[wing2000]

As a conservative and Trump supporter it looks to me that liberals in general and on the board seem to largely give China a pass when it comes to the virus. I see much more preoccupation with complaints on how Trump has handled it etc.

Is that a correct perception?

As an Independent voter, I hold our government accountable for it's actions...just as the Chinese are accountable for the actions of their government - albeit, they have less say than we do.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Point me to a source in FoxNews.com and I be interested to read about it. Thanks.

It's all my own words

1A) Cuomo mandated that Corona virus patents be admitted into nursing/rest homes. A policy that he reversed two months or so later, but that is why the the spike in his state compared to other states.

1B) Besides that there is was a lot of talk on ventillators etc. that Cuomo was warned of the need to buy some last November by the state health department that there might be a flu out break and the hospitals would need them. Besides that there is a claim made by Trump etc. that there was also calls back in 2015 for the state to buy them as well. The last claim has been the most actively "fact checked", but I think it is easy to make a case that the state was run to be more concerned with causes like Global Warming etc. rather than the fact that it's main city is a huge target for a pandemic or bioterrorism.


2) People have lots of beefs with Deblasio but I'm less familiar with their complaints compared to Cuomo. One big one has been him "not taking covid seriously" (If people blame Trump for this a similar case can be made for folks like Cuomo, Deblassio and even Pelosi). As far as nuts and bolts issues people fault deblassio for not having the subway trains cleaned every night to start with. He also cut back on the train schedule and allowed the homeless to move into the underground making the subway a major virus vector.

Is this a quote from a source or is it your own words?
If it's a quote please link to the source so I/we can read it in context and know who wrote.

Nope I was just going on memory. For years I listened to litanies of why "George W Bush" is the worst president ever etc. And I occasionally had to remind them of the stuff that happened in the late part of Bill Clinton presidency that has been largely forgotten. Namely that China stole a ton of our best military secrets. I'm talking about things like our best nuclear tech; MIRV missles, the neutron bomb, satellite communication encryption tech etc. well over a dozen of our best kept military secrets. Clinton also pushed for them getting the "favored nation status" which allowed our companies to begin to move their to save money and would allow them to steal our civilian tech as well.



https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851/pdf/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851.pdf


Timeline of the Cox Report controversy - Wikipedia


Cox Report - Wikipedia



China Most Favored Nation Announcement | C-SPAN.org

 

[wing2000]

1A) Cuomo mandated that Corona virus patents be admitted into nursing/rest homes. A policy that he reversed two months or so later, but that is why the the spike in his state compared to other states.

Cuomo sent recovering patients released from hospitals to nursing homes.
Question: What other option did he have at the time?

And btw, there were many reasons why NYC was heavily impacted...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

And btw, there were many reasons why NYC was heavily impacted...

There were plenty of empty beds on the USS Mercy and the Javits center. Cuomo begged to have the extra field hospitals brought, and they were brought in at a pretty penny and they were completely under utilized (except for the Javits center).



With empty beds at the Javits Center and on the Comfort, uniformed health workers are going straight into NYC hospitals


Now mind you I wouldn't crucify Cuomo for this because I think he and all the experts were anticipating a giant apocalypse that didn't manifest, but if you are the type to rake Trump over the coals for everything then yes I think turnabout is fair play.

 

[wing2000]

There were plenty of empty beds on the USS Mercy and the Javits center. Cuomo begged to have the extra field hospitals brought, and they were brought in at a pretty penny and they were completely under utilized.



With empty beds at the Javits Center and on the Comfort, uniformed health workers are going straight into NYC hospitals

He was preparing for the expected wave of COVID-19 patients....


Cuomo administration officials say the original directive came when the governor feared the hospital system would be overwhelmed and was focused on creating as much hospital space as possible.

That was welcomed by one of the many hospital systems and nursing homes surveyed for AP's count. Northwell Health said three of its medical centers were so overtaxed at one point they had to put some ICU patients in hallways. To relieve pressure, the company eventually sent more than 1,700 COVID-19 patients to nursing homes.

“Suffice it say, our hospitals were under stress,” spokesman Terence Lynam said.

And in fact, some NYC hospitals were overwhelmed. Others were not.

AP count: Over 4,300 virus patients sent to NY nursing homes

 

[Pavel Mosko]

He was preparing for the expected wave of COVID-19 patients....

Yes and that is why I added in an extra statement onto my previous post.

Now mind you I wouldn't crucify Cuomo for this because I think he and all the experts were anticipating a giant apocalypse that didn't manifest, but if you are the type to rake Trump over the coals for everything then yes I think turnabout is fair play.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Now mind you I wouldn't crucify Cuomo for this because I think he and all the experts were anticipating a giant apocalypse that didn't manifest, but if you are the type to rake Trump over the coals for everything then yes I think turnabout is fair play.

I'm far more willing to forgive an overreaction to a dangerous situation than an underreaction. Trump continuously downplayed the danger, spread misleading or straight up false information, and actively worked against his own government agencies and the states.

That's a heck of a lot worse than requesting too much in the way of emergency hospital capacity.

 

[wing2000]

Yes and that is why I added in an extra statement onto my previous post.

Now mind you I wouldn't crucify Cuomo for this because I think he and all the experts were anticipating a giant apocalypse that didn't manifest, but if you are the type to rake Trump over the coals for everything then yes I think turnabout is fair play.

...more than happy to review a Trump decision based on the information and risk he was presented at the time...

 

[Hank77]

It's all my own words

1A) Cuomo mandated that Corona virus patents be admitted into nursing/rest homes. A policy that he reversed two months or so later, but that is why the the spike in his state compared to other states.

1B) Besides that there is was a lot of talk on ventillators etc. that Cuomo was warned of the need to buy some last November by the state health department that there might be a flu out break and the hospitals would need them. Besides that there is a claim made by Trump etc. that there was also calls back in 2015 for the state to buy them as well. The last claim has been the most actively "fact checked", but I think it is easy to make a case that the state was run to be more concerned with causes like Global Warming etc. rather than the fact that it's main city is a huge target for a pandemic or bioterrorism.


2) People have lots of beefs with Deblasio but I'm less familiar with their complaints compared to Cuomo. One big one has been him "not taking covid seriously" (If people blame Trump for this a similar case can be made for folks like Cuomo, Deblassio and even Pelosi). As far as nuts and bolts issues people fault deblassio for not having the subway trains cleaned every night to start with. He also cut back on the train schedule and allowed the homeless to move into the underground making the subway a major virus vector.






Nope I was just going on memory. For years I listened to litanies of why "George W Bush" is the worst president ever etc. And I occasionally had to remind them of the stuff that happened in the late part of Bill Clinton presidency that has been largely forgotten. Namely that China stole a ton of our best military secrets. I'm talking about things like our best nuclear tech; MIRV missles, the neutron bomb, satellite communication encryption tech etc. well over a dozen of our best kept military secrets. Clinton also pushed for them getting the "favored nation status" which allowed our companies to begin to move their to save money and would allow them to steal our civilian tech as well.



https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851/pdf/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851.pdf


Timeline of the Cox Report controversy - Wikipedia


Cox Report - Wikipedia



China Most Favored Nation Announcement | C-SPAN.org

Thanks for the links they help to understand where you're coming from.

I don't agree with you on #1 about Cuomo.
I knew about recovering patients being moved to convalescent homes in order to make more room in the hospitals. Obviously, the precautions taken at the homes weren't enough. I'm pretty sure Cuomo didn't make this decision on his own. This is standard practice with people who have no one to take care of them while they recover or still need to be monitored on a daily bases. I'm not sure what you think Cuomo should have done?
There are many, many reasons the NYC become the hotspot that it did. Most of them are logical, easily determined such as the busy, public culture but not easily managed such as international airports. Nothing about the spread in NYC is surprising.

 

[Hank77]

There were plenty of empty beds on the USS Mercy and the Javits center. Cuomo begged to have the extra field hospitals brought, and they were brought in at a pretty penny and they were completely under utilized (except for the Javits center).

It's my understanding that the hospital ship wasn't allowed to take CoVid patients.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's my understanding that the hospital ship wasn't allowed to take CoVid patients.

That was true for only the first few weeks to a month. They reworked it afterward for Covid but it cut its capacity in half.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

As a conservative and Trump supporter it looks to me that liberals in general and on the board seem to largely give China a pass when it comes to the virus. I see much more preoccupation with complaints on how Trump has handled it etc.

Is that a correct perception?


If this is true in some way (cite your own reasons please) does this fit with the usual critique of western imperialism, US interventionism and so on?


In my personal estimation, Trump has actually done a better job nationally at managing the virus than Governor Cuomo has done at managing it at the level of his state. From what I can tell, Cuomo runs a great press conference, but has made more mistakes at the management level than Trump. He however is treated much differently by the press because of his party identification and personal demeanor and comportment.

15 times Trump praised China as coronavirus was spreading across the globe

15 times Trump praised China as coronavirus was spreading across the globe

 

[MIDutch]

As a conservative and Trump supporter it looks to me that liberals in general and on the board seem to largely give China a pass when it comes to the virus. I see much more preoccupation with complaints on how Trump has handled it etc.

Are you talking about Democrats or liberals in general? Also, does this include people who reside outside of the US?

There are lots of people around the world who want to hold China accountable AND think trump is a piece of shiite.