Why do humans 'deserve' to be born sinners?

[BlackSepulcher]

The scripture in the Bible was written in a time where there were little to no good people in the world. In Sodom, only several people were saved, and that is by the standards of those times at that.

Faith was required for people who didn't know what good was, they were trapped in pagan vanity and archaic notions of law and righteousness.

To understand the Bible, you have to understand that the scriptures are OLD. They weren't written in an era where charity and personal, spiritual steed was prominent.

Protestantism puts believers in Heaven and unbelievers in Hell. There is no grace for one who is born a Muslim or 3rd world indigenous man. There is no grace for the humanitarian who simply doesn't have the inclination to be religious. If that is the case, there should be no grace at all.

"But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman....
But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him. For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen. But then again they are not to be pardoned. For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?"
Wisdom 13:1, 6-9

Why do you think Luther and the rest of the reformers would want this book taken out of the canon? It doesn't do their doctrines must justice. They took out all the books that included Purgatory and salvation outside Christendom.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Lilly Owl. When God made Man, God made us in God`s image, and Man
was Good. We all know what happened in the Garden of Eden: Adam and Eve (Man) ignored God`s Loving advice and ate of the forbidden Tree, and followed his own will, assisted by the lying Serpent. Man`s time of Innocence
was over, and God banished us to Earth. Instead of having learned by it, Man moved farther and farther away from God, and became as the Old Testament describes the men and women, all humans had turned into.
In time Jesus came and showed us that God Loves us, and wants us back again. How does God our Heavenly Father wants us? Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it:
Love our neighbour as we love ourselves." Then Jesus gives us this great truth: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Jesus promised us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. Then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. We keep asking God and thanking God, and sharing all Love and Joy with our neighbour. ( Matthew 7: 7-8 We might stumble or forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring.
A Christians weapon is LOVE, freely given and NO conditions made. God is Love, and God wants Loving children/sons and daughters. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us, JESUS IS THE WAY. I say this with love, Lilly Owl.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. The Bible tells us more in detail.

 

[Lax]

All men on Earth have the law written in their hearts, so sayeth the Bible, and there are plenty of atheists who could easily match your idea of purity and righteousness. You keep asking this question: >>>

Wait, my idea of purity and righteousness? I don't decide who gets into Heaven, we're talking about God's idea of righteousness because He decides that. The God who's will atheist don't care about.

You said this...

Faith augments and helps secure one to salvation

Okay, but... how?

Faith gives one a better ability to know what is righteous. Believing in Christ invokes the fear of God, which invokes wisdom of God, which in turn augments one in their works.

They have their own idea of what is righteous and it has nothing to do with the bible, at all. An atheist has no fear of God because there is no God to fear.

... you brought up righteousness as a way to explain how faith is relevant. But if you don't believe in God, you have no reason to care about what God thinks about anything.


Alright, okay... so if the law is already in everyone's hearts by default and you can be just as pure and righteous in God's eyes with or without faith... no one really needs to believe, right?

I keep asking that question because it keeps... not getting answered. If you take away the importance of faith in relation to salvation, then why do you need it?

<<< but what does faith do that separates the saved from the damned? That's sort of the irony of Protestantism's 'forensic' approach to salvation. You all fantastically damn yourselves by your own theology.

You just answered my question... by asking another question. If I answer yours, will you get around to answering mine?

What does faith do that separates the saved from the damned? It pleases God. It pleases Him when we acknowledge the sacrifice His Son made for us.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

I mean... are these verses untrue?

The definition of atheism goes both ways. There are people who don't believe in God, and there are people who believe there is no God.

If you specifically don't believe in God why would you think He exists?

That's like saying I believe in God but don't think he exists.

I said

An atheist is someone who says there is no God and cares not one bit about what He wants because the bible is a work of fiction.

Then you said...

An atheist is someone who does not have a religion. Your interpretation of them is a seeping generalization.

... as if it's just a lack of having a religion. That's agnostic, they don't have a position. An atheist has a position which rejects the notion of God. They specifically reject faith, that's more than just not having a religion. It's thinking religion is false.

An agnostic is one who believes God cannot be proven or unproven until time tells. It is un-gnostic, just like atheism is un-theistic.

God cannot be proven or unproven to exist regardless of what you believe. If He could no sane person would doubt his existence any more than gravity.


Christians say there is a God in spite of the lack of objective proof of His existence. That's faith.


Agnostics say because there's no objective way to proof or disproof His existence there is no way to know. They are neutral, noncommittal.


Atheist say because there's no objective proof, there is no God. The same way one would say because there is no objective proof of Santa Claus there is no Santa.

I know my terms, and this is irrelevant.

It is completely relevant to the question of faith and how it's actually important to salvation.

 

[brinny]

If people are suppose to be born with inherited sin, how then would Jesus teach that unless we become like little children we will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

If little children are suppose to bear the burden of original sin/inherited sin, how can this be?

And how is it that when God created the deluge to drown the world for it's sins that he allowed original sin to be born into the world after Noah's family repopulated it, so that the whole sin cycle would begin again?
Why, after feeling the need to destroy humanity and all life, did God not revoke the sin nature so that humanity could be born again as little children like what Jesus speaks about later in the NT?


Thoughts?

Christ had not come on the scene yet. Only the sacrifice of His only begotten Son (the Son of man, the Second Adam) could blot out sin.

Jesus was referring to the characteristics of small children, that they have no guile, and and open-hearted to embrace Him, and they delighted in Him. Ever notice how forgiving small children are and how quickly they forgive?

 

[blankCrossfire]

They took out all the books that included Purgatory and salvation outside Christendom.

Hate to break it to you but purgatory doesn't exist.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

Salvation outside Christendom?

Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

If people are suppose to be born with inherited sin, how then would Jesus teach that unless we become like little children we will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

If little children are suppose to bear the burden of original sin/inherited sin, how can this be?

And how is it that when God created the deluge to drown the world for it's sins that he allowed original sin to be born into the world after Noah's family repopulated it, so that the whole sin cycle would begin again?
Why, after feeling the need to destroy humanity and all life, did God not revoke the sin nature so that humanity could be born again as little children like what Jesus speaks about later in the NT?


Thoughts?

Seems free will--at least some variations of it--should provide the answers to your questions. When the crack baby inherits features of his mother's addiction and poverty, he is still held to the same legal standards in life as those from better walks of life. Despite cultural odds stacked against him he is still responsible to live according to the law of the land.

If God did a clean sweep with the flood, should He then have instituted a harshly deterministic reality and directed it in ways that humans not sin any more, despite the fact that they now had no choice in life?

Maybe the big picture is the sin nature we're born with is a spiritual antibody which will eventually, when it's run its course, immunize creation from imperfection.

 

[branchofthevine]

The scripture in the Bible was written in a time where there were little to no good people in the world. In Sodom, only several people were saved, and that is by the standards of those times at that.

Faith was required for people who didn't know what good was, they were trapped in pagan vanity and archaic notions of law and righteousness.

To understand the Bible, you have to understand that the scriptures are OLD. They weren't written in an era where charity and personal, spiritual steed was prominent.

Protestantism puts believers in Heaven and unbelievers in Hell. There is no grace for one who is born a Muslim or 3rd world indigenous man. There is no grace for the humanitarian who simply doesn't have the inclination to be religious. If that is the case, there should be no grace at all.

"But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman....
But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him. For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen. But then again they are not to be pardoned. For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?"
Wisdom 13:1, 6-9

Why do you think Luther and the rest of the reformers would want this book taken out of the canon? It doesn't do their doctrines must justice. They took out all the books that included Purgatory and salvation outside Christendom.

You are arguing for a liberal Ethnocentricism which is completely arrogant and wrong.

We have not gotten better than the people who have lived 2000 years ago. We have better technology yes, but as human beings we have not progressed at all. What is true of humans back then is the same for humans today because we do not improve with time nor on our own.


If you want to keep the aprocrypha in the canon you at least have to use it in harmony with the rest of scripture. As far as I have made it into the apocrypha there is not much wrong with it, and there are great things in it, but they are extra texts not canon.

If Catholicism wants to put it in their canon, go ahead. Personally I am upset that we don't want 1 & 2 Clement, but whatever.

 

[Dave-W]

Faith augments and helps secure one to salvation. It is not a dividing line between the saved and the damned.

Not scriptural.

Rom 11. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Sure sounds like a "dividing line" to me.

 

[HighwayMan]

My interpretation is that everyone is born with the potential for evil and wrong - but that doesn't mean children are evil themselves just for having that potential. Yes, when maturing into adults, wrongdoing always manifests itself without fail, but yes, the verse makes perfect sense to me. Become like children in purity despite having the potential for evil - not robots who have no potential of good or bad.

 

[dhh712]

If people are suppose to be born with inherited sin, how then would Jesus teach that unless we become like little children we will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

If little children are suppose to bear the burden of original sin/inherited sin, how can this be?

And how is it that when God created the deluge to drown the world for it's sins that he allowed original sin to be born into the world after Noah's family repopulated it, so that the whole sin cycle would begin again?
Why, after feeling the need to destroy humanity and all life, did God not revoke the sin nature so that humanity could be born again as little children like what Jesus speaks about later in the NT?


Thoughts?

Humankind inherited its sinful nature from Adam, when he disobeyed the Lord. We sinned in Adam, that is where the original sin lies (as we are all from Adam's loins as it says in Hebrews that Levi paid tithes in Abraham as he was still in the loins of Abraham when he paid the tenth to Melchizedek). So it's not so much that we deserve to be born sinners, it's just that we are that way.

Little children have original sin and that continues until the time we die. When Jesus says we are to become like little children to enter the kingdom he means to have that typical childlike "innocence" (since, of course, children are not innocent) that for the most part goes away with age as we become more cynical and have that attitude toward God our Father.

When God ordained the flood, he didn't erase all original sin from the world since he still left Noah and his family in it!

God can only revoke the sin nature by punishing us all with his eternal wrath because he is a just God (I'm not sure that would be revoking it exactly, but that's the only way to get rid of it). Praise to God he hasn't done that and instead has sent his son Jesus the Christ to be our Saviour! Jesus' death on the cross is the perfect marriage of God's mercy and justice. The angels weep at the beauty of it and stand in eternal awe and praise at this wonderful counsel of the Lord--as we will too when he calls us to have eternal fellowship with him!!

God has taken upon himself the punishment of our sins so that we can have a way to be with him eternally, as that is the only thing that will fulfill us with lasting happiness. How great is the mercy of our Lord! We can never praise him enough for such compassion to things as undeserving as ourselves. What a gracious Lord, what a gracious God! Praise the Lord Jesus, let us ever praise his precious and holy name!

The problem I have with Protestant doctrine is it's insatiable need to reflect wholly on faith rather then works

It appears you may not have a correct understanding of Protestant doctrine if what you say here is what you believe, that Protestants reflect only (as wholly would appear to me to be a synonym for only since a whole part would exclude the parts of anything else) on faith as opposed to works.

The true Protestant doctrine reflects on the importance of both faith and works. If there are no works in a person's life, that person's faith is a dead one which means it does not exist. Please correct this misunderstanding of this doctrine before you say such things about it that are not true. If I am rather misunderstanding your post, I would welcome a correction from you and apologize in advance.

 

[Emmy]

Dear LillyOwl. When God made us, we were without sin, we were God`s loving sons and daughters. It was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who tempted Eve to go against God`s wish:
Not to eat fruit of one particular tree. But Adam and Eve ignored God`s warning, and did eat of the forbidden tree. The Serpent tempted both of them to ignore God`s warning.
God banned them Earth, and from then on, they ignored God`s warnings, and followed the Evil One`s temptations.
God Loves us and God wants us back again, and in time Jesus came to Earth to help us to resist temptation of all EVIL. Jesus died for us, and we are given another chance, accept Jesus and follow Him back to God again. In Matthew 22: 35-40, Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: love our neighbour as we love ourselves. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) Let us all Love God above all else, and treat others as we would love to be treated. I say this with love, Lilly. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Radrook]

Okay, but... how?

An atheist is someone who says there is no God and cares not one bit about what He wants because the bible is a work of fiction. If he can get into Heaven what does faith have to do with it?

If that is so... then why is faith important?

Faith isn't just a proclamation of belief as some have come to believe.

James 2:17 ►
New International Version
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Lilly Owl. You are right in all you say, but In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us:
" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, wit all thy soul, and with all thy mind. In verse 40 we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. We have to give up all our selfish wishes and wants, and then start Loving God with all our hearts and souls, and also we have to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, treat all we know and all we meet as we would love to be treated. Let us all try to be as God wants us to be, and ve is very strong, and Love achieves all things. Let us therefore be as God wants us to be:
loving always and kind and considerate to all we know and meet. I say this with love, Lilly.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Shempster]

Yeshua must have been speaking about one or two specific attributes of children.
But I raised 5 kids, who are awesome today, but were really rotten at times as kids. Same with all the kids when I was in middle school. They were brutal. That's one issue.

But you asked why we deserve it....that's a loaded question. Heavy philosophy stuff.
Are all people born randomly? Are our souls and spirits created the moment of conception? Does God have a "pool" of genetic and characters that He constantly shuffles around so there are no copies?

Sorry I don't have answers. Just more questions.