Why do humans 'deserve' to be born sinners?

Lilly Owl

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Matthew 18:3 Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.



If people are suppose to be born with inherited sin, how then would Jesus teach that unless we become like little children we will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

If little children are suppose to bear the burden of original sin/inherited sin, how can this be?

And how is it that when God created the deluge to drown the world for it's sins that he allowed original sin to be born into the world after Noah's family repopulated it, so that the whole sin cycle would begin again?
Why, after feeling the need to destroy humanity and all life, did God not revoke the sin nature so that humanity could be born again as little children like what Jesus speaks about later in the NT?


Thoughts?:groupray:
 

BlackSepulcher

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If people are suppose to be born with inherited sin, how then would Jesus teach that unless we become like little children we will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

This is why it's important to believe the Catholic interpretation.

What is supposed to be a beautiful, benevolent God of righteousness and perfection, many have turned into a tyrant.

You see, the Catholic belief is that even an atheist can potentially be saved. The belief in Christ is an augmentation and leads to a more perfect life, but there cannot be outright doom for the unbeliever or someone who was never able to know God.

Deep down, people know that, but are to up in protest to come to terms with that. Many people deny the fact that one is rewarded or punished according to what they deserve, and turn it into legal fictions and technicalities.

I think reformed doctrine is a poison, because that is exactly what it entails- if you don't become Christian, you burn in Hellfire> your works mean nothing, you are totally depraved> you will go to Hell, because there is nowhere else for you to go.
I mean, what real peace does a person have kissing the toes of a monster?

In other words, it is better for us to never have been born to have been born. This is corrupt theology. And so to the OP, I understand your inquiry.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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So the catholic faith does not teach original sin?

The Church does teach original sin, they just don't believe that it leaves you completely depraved and 'one-wayed' to Hell unless you somehow believe what you can't believe.

It's as I said, you'd be better not even had been born then be born if you are born in a place Christianity is not prominent. That is the ugly side of Protestant doctrine, and it's bane really.

So the next time you hear Protestants bashing Catholic belief, keep that in mind. Gandhi is in Hell because he was a sinner, and the murderous founders of the Reformation is in Heaven swimming with the angels.
 
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Armistead14

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If you take Gens. literal, it poses many problems as traditional religions teaches us that Adam and Eve sinned on their own, passing a sin nature to all mankind than condemns us from birth.

God knew everything and made everything. The fact he made us with the ability to fall was his choice, not ours.

Did God have a perfect plan for man in the garden and we blew it....hardly.

Satan sinned. God could've destroyed him, he didn't, he could've taken his power away, he didn't. What did God do, case Satan out of heaven unto earth with all his power to deal with man. Notice, Adam and Eve didn't eat of the tree until Satan, but why even put a tree of temptation in front of man.

Eve obviously had a sin nature before she ate. We can see like Satan, she desired to be like God. She lusted for power, knowledge. She became greedy. She had all these failures before she ate.

If the garden was God's perfect plan, why wasn't he able to protect it. If man or Satan could ruin God's pefect plan of the garden, wouldn't they also be able to ruin the plan of heaven?

It obvious wasn't God's will, plan or intention to leave man in the garden.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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If that's so, then ultimately... being saved has nothing to do with faith at all.

Faith is important, but Protestantism has taken it so completely out of context that it treads on the path of lunacy.

What I have stated on here is actually the belies that they hold, and they wont' deny it either which is quite frankly the sad part. The 400 year protest will one day be put to an end. It's time to move on with proper, healthy belief of God.
 
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ByGraceOnly

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I think reformed doctrine is a poison, because that is exactly what it entails- if you don't become Christian, you burn in Hellfire> your works mean nothing, you are totally depraved> you will go to Hell, because there is nowhere else for you to go.

Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in God's sight, it says in Isaiah. Works can't save us, because we're still sinners. We're saved by grace. We can't be saved by both grace and works. They're contradictory premises. To say works can save us is saying that we deserve to be in heaven, side by side with God. No one can claim that. Talk about pride!

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righeousness, but according to His mercy." Titus 3:5
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in God's sight, it says in Isaiah. Works can't save us, because we're still sinners. We're saved by grace. We can't be saved by both grace and works. They're contradictory premises. To say works can save us is saying that we deserve to be in heaven, side by side with God. No one can claim that. Talk about pride!

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righeousness, but according to His mercy." Titus 3:5

Well guess what, there's an alternative interpretation that was around for 1500 years before your theology, and is still prominent today. So why even take a side with something that is lunacy incarnate? There is no grace in Protestant doctrine no matter how much you try to make it so. It is dark and vain, and entails that we are just pawns in God's solo game of chess, born to eternal torment.
 
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Lax

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Faith is important, but Protestantism has taken it so completely out of context that it treads on the path of lunacy.
Faith is important but... not really necessary?
What I have stated on here is actually the belies that they hold, and they wont' deny it either which is quite frankly the sad part. The 400 year protest will one day be put to an end. It's time to move on with proper, healthy belief of God.
The belies... that they hold.

Okay, but if they aren't right... you kinda have to fill in the blank with what is right. Because with the way you're talking it sounds like faith isn't necessary.
 
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rturner76

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Faith augments and helps secure one to salvation. It is not a dividing line between the saved and the damned.

Are you speaking for your own interpretation or for the Catholic Church? This is interesting theology, where did it come from? What scripture or tradition lead you to this conclusion? I do believe it is by GRACE we are saved. WHat role faith plays in that I am willing to discuss but I would like to see what you are reading that leads you this way.
 
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Lax

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Faith augments and helps secure one to salvation.
Okay, but... how?

An atheist is someone who says there is no God and cares not one bit about what He wants because the bible is a work of fiction. If he can get into Heaven what does faith have to do with it?
It is not a dividing line between the saved and the damned.
If that is so... then why is faith important?
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Are you speaking for your own interpretation or for the Catholic Church? This is interesting theology, where did it come from? What scripture or tradition lead you to this conclusion? I do believe it is by GRACE we are saved. WHat role faith plays in that I am willing to discuss but I would like to see what you are reading that leads you this way.

That is just the orthodox belief of Christianity. Early Christians didn't believe the whole populace around them were doomed to sink into Hell, Christianity is supposed to be a humane religion of a merciful and reasonable God.

The Church has always maintained that in essence, despite the militant ecclesiastics and, unfortunately, the corruption through the earlier ages with a lot of it's clergy.

Today, the Church will come right out and say that one doesn't necessarily have to be a Christian to be saved, resurfacing what was proper to begin with.
However, they do not remotely pretend to say that faith isn't invaluable. In fact, the Faith is considered by them to be the most important and needed thing of humanity.

In other words, it's business as usual.


The problem I have with Protestant doctrine is it's insatiable need to reflect wholly on faith rather then works, which ultimately dooms anyone who is not in the faith.
What I try to illustrate is the dark reality of that notion. Through history, that belief alone has put Christianity and it's relationship with others on a crutch. It has caused death and greed, it has caused inequity, and most of all it has made Christendom inept.
That's sort of what happens when you believe the people in your religion are saved and that God is going to send everyone else to Hell. Do you see what I'm saying? There's simply something wrong with that- that is not Jesus.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Okay, but... how?

Faith gives one a better ability to know what is righteous. Believing in Christ invokes the fear of God, which invokes wisdom of God, which in turn augments one in their works.
It's not hard to grasp unless one simply prefers to labor under legal fictions.

An atheist is someone who says there is no God and cares not one bit about what He wants because the bible is a work of fiction. If he can get into Heaven what does faith have to do with it?

An atheist is someone who does not have a religion. Your interpretation of them is a seeping generalization, the same that the Reformers had in mind when anything outside of white Christian society was considered unworthy and evil.
 
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Lax

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Faith gives one a better ability to know what is righteous. Believing in Christ invokes the fear of God, which invokes wisdom of God, which in turn augments one in their works. It's not hard to grasp unless one simply prefers to labor under legal fictions.
They have their own idea of what is righteous and it has nothing to do with the bible, at all. An atheist has no fear of God because there is no God to fear.

So, again... if they can get into Heaven how does faith matter?
An atheist is someone who does not have a religion.
No, that's agnostic. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.


An atheist is one who flat out rejects the notion of God. The same way you or I would reject the notion of Zeus as a actual real life being.
Your interpretation of them is a seeping generalization, the same that the Reformers had in mind when anything outside of white Christian society was considered unworthy and evil.
What are you talking about? It's what the word means.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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They have their own idea of what is righteous and it has nothing to do with the bible, at all. An atheist has no fear of God because there is no God to fear.

All men on Earth have the law written in their hearts, so sayeth the Bible, and there are plenty of atheists who could easily match your idea of purity and righteousness. You keep asking this question: >>>

So, again... if they can get into Heaven how does faith matter?
<<< but what does faith do that separates the saved from the damned? That's sort of the irony of Protestantism's 'forensic' approach to salvation. You all fantastically damn yourselves by your own theology.

No, that's agnostic. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
The definition of atheism goes both ways. There are people who don't believe in God, and there are people who believe there is no God.

An agnostic is one who believes God cannot be proven or unproven until time tells. It is un-gnostic, just like atheism is un-theistic.

I know my terms, and this is irrelevant.
 
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I think the ideas of Hell, and sin and wrong here (I'll expand later).
It also is strange how you Blackseplucher are just stating your opinion and frankly it is just wrong, like all of it, all of the time.

I don't know what kind of Bible you are reading if any, because it says basically the opposite from what you are saying.

Read Romans, or Galatians, or both. Actually both, read both. Read what Paul writes, and John, and Peter, and James. It is not that hard at all, it really isn't.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

The problem with what you are saying Black seplucher is that you ignore the very reason Jesus came. The work of Jesus on the Cross: His death and His resurrection.

He took our sin upon Himself, and took our punishment for sin, so that the wrath of God which would be poured out on sin, was taken by Jesus, and He was raised from death conquering sin and death. Therefore, if anyone believes in Christ then they are counted as righteous and just before God, and are saved through His power (grace).

Like Galatians says
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, &#8220;If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?[c]
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The Bible clearly says that we are justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, or by the works of our flesh (any work we do). They will not be justified.


When you say:
Faith gives one a better ability to know what is righteous. Believing in Christ invokes the fear of God, which invokes wisdom of God, which in turn augments one in their works.
It's not hard to grasp unless one simply prefers to labor under legal fictions.

you are clearly wrong if speaking Biblically.

Ephesians says

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

or in Philippians

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

We cannot do anything that justifies us before God. That is the basis for Salvation: that it is God who saves, and justifies people who have faith in Jesus. Period. There is no place for works, ever. It doesn't matter what the RCC says, every tradition whether it be Protestant or Catholic that is in opposition to what the scriptures plainly teach, throw it out: be ride rid of it.



The understanding of Hell being a place of fire burning people forever is mostly a Greek idea, but also comes from the interpretations of the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation. However, we do not actually know as much as we think we do about Hell. What we do know is that the people who are thrown into Hell are punished according to the severity of their sins. No one can justify themselves through their own works, only by faith in Jesus.

Which leads me to sin. The understanding of original sin is that humanity is born with a sinful nature, but not with the guilt of sin because even though the nature to sin is passed to us through Adam, we sin by what we do, when we through our intention, words, and actions rebel against God.

What Jesus came to do is to take away our sin and give us a new nature, not one by the physical nature, but by the Holy Spirit. Honestly just read Romans because Paul clearly outlines this whole thing.


OP - When Jesus says as a little child, He means it in the humility to accept by faith the Kingdom of Heaven, which is a real experience now in our lives like today and tomorrow through the Holy Spirit.

Shalom.
 
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