Nathan David said:I've done a few things in my time I'm not proud of, but I refuse to be lumped into the same "sin" category as a mass-murdering child-molester.
So basically it works like this: a Buddhist monk who has never done anything to hurt anyone else goes to hell because he prayed to the wrong 2000-year-old dead guy.
But a child-molesting mass murderer who repents and accepts Jesus on his deathbed goes to heaven.
And nothing about this bothers you?
Nathan David said:I am confident I have not committed any "sins" serious enough that I need forgiveness from the creator and ruler of the universe. If your God exists and that's not good enough for him, too bad. I'd rather concern myself with the people and relationships I have in this life than waste any effort trying to please a supernatural entity.
oneiric said:How good do you have to be to get to heaven? God is holy and requires holiness. Holiness is purity. Even though you may think you are good enough, even one sin disqualifies you from being in the presence of God. You could never be good enough. That is why you need Jesus.
Nathan David said:If that's God's attitude, I want to be separated from Him.
But I'm pretty sure it isn't, so I'm not worried about it.
Take up the Cross said:Quoted:
for the Christian, this is not so and these are eternal reward or punishment... interestingly enough, Paul says that those that will join the "elect" have already been preordained before their birth to be the "elect"... effectively removing the sacrifice of Jesus as necessary for salvation... even though Jesus says you can't get to God except through Him.
even more curiously, James plainly states that faith without works is devoid of life whilst Paul insists that faith alone is what is required. i find it noteworthy that James was the brother of Jesus and led the Jerusalem Church well before Paul (Saul) was on the scene. isn't it odd that James and Luke contradict Paul?
Paul never teaches such a thing. He proclaims over and over that salvation is by FAITH, not fate. He exhorts human responsibility throughout His work. He tells unbelievers to repent and believe, and believers to abide in the faith. Nothing was pre-ordained by God other than His plan to save all those who would believe in Him through Christ. The 5 times the word predestination occurs in the Bible all refer to US (the Body), and include how the election takes place, through Christ. Thus, the Body is elect, and those who believe become part of the body.
This does not "effectively remove the sacrifice of Jesus as necessary for salvation," because it is necessary for all. One only becomes elect once they repent and believe. It is open to all, whosoever will - words of Jesus.
Paul himself claimed several times that Jesus died for all men and was the propitiation of sin for all men. So the words of Paul are not in opposition to Jesus in any way. I can give you plenty of verses for reference if you'd like.
And as for James, He was dealing with the issue of dead faith. Justification by faith, as said by Paul, means that we cannot do anything to merit salvation. But, after salvation has taken place, our fruits will show. So, a true Christian will show his faith through his works. Paul spoke against sinning 'for the fun of it' since we are 'under grace' very ardently. He warned people of falling from the faith, and that Christians DO NOT sin (dead to sin, alive to God). James said the same thing! "Faith without works is dead." True faith will result in good works (fruits of salvation). This does not void justification by faith as affirmed by both Paul, and James.
I see no contradiction here
Kyle
Is it your feeling that everyone born before Jesus is now a resident of hell?Take up the Cross said:The question is not 'how do you reject forgiveness.' Christ's death was a 'provision' for forgiveness, not forgiveness in itself. It made forgiveness and atonement possible for all, not effacious for all. Forgiveness requires the individual to repent and trust in the provision (Jesus).
The Bible judges unbelievers (non-Christians), and tells us to preach the Truth of Jesus Christ, and that no one can be saved without Him.
Why would 'good Buddhists' go to heaven? What is 'good,' according to the Bible? Can we achieve it without Christ, according to the Bible? The truth is that 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,' and that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He said Himself that no one comes to the Father but through Him.
Kyle
jeffthefinn said:Is it your feeling that everyone born before Jesus is now a resident of hell?
Jeff the Finn
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