Why Do Evolutionist Debate?

[Orihalcon]

why do evolutionists argue? why does anyone bother to learn anything? we could just as easily frolick in the meadows without the use of any technology we have and go back to the good old hunter-gatherer ways. why bother learning any facts if somebody wrote something down a long time ago that contradicts the evidence?

the only reason evolutionists debate is because there is a resistance met by religous figures. few people debate the relativity theory because you'd have a hard time looking for anything at all related to motion at the speed of light in any holy text. the search for truth and knowledge is what places us at the highest order on this planet. and simply yelling out 'god is truth, that's all i need to know' is not the truth, it is just ignorance.

 

[kern]

Warrior FC, you constantly claim that Christians cannot accept evolution, and yet there are many who do.

Sure the Bible says that God formed man out of the dust of the ground. But what does that mean? How did God turn dust into a living being? Maybe through abiogenesis and evolution? It's silly to imagine that evolution goes against God -- God is the one who created evolution in the first place!

-Chris

 

[Orihalcon]

are you disagreeing with him? that automatically means you're wrong.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why do evolutionists debate?

Well, I can only speak for myself...

I debate to improve myself, not to "save" people, and not to score points with God.

I debate because I'll be a better thinker for the experience, regardless of whether I win or lose.

I debate because I want to hear from people with different points of view, and learn why they hold them.

I debate because I'm not arrogant enough to believe I have all the answers.

I debate because I'm not lazy enough to wait for answers to be handed to me on a silver platter.

I debate because I want to shake some thoughts into people who never dreamed to question what they've been taught.

I debate because I consider it a sign of mutual respect to match wits with someone on a level playing field.

I debate because I have a mind. Use it or lose it.

I debate because I want that mind to stay sharp.

"Iron rusts from disuse; water that does not flow becomes stagnant; so it is with the human mind." --Leonardo Da Vinci

or perhaps you'd prefer

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" --Proverbs 27:17

 

[ProudHeretic]

The OT was written long before 2000 years ago, so you have your timeline off there. If you want to attack Creationism, use facts. Evolutionists don't like evolution being called eviloution and stuff like that either. There are valid scientific reasons for believing in Creationism. In fact, natural selection and genetic mutations are facts, but not enough change is involved to get all the creatures/plants/fungi ect on this earth. I am not buying it and neither are very astute scientific minds. It takes much more faith to believe in macroevolution on the grand scale that would need to happen to create all the living creatures on this planet, than to believe God did it the way he said in the Bible. Talk about blind faith.

Ummm, no, I'm afraid there are absolutely NO scientific reasons to believe in creationism.  The only "facts" you can pull are from the bible and that is suspect. 

Actually, in the scientific community, evolution is regarded as fact, there is no debate.  As for time, is 3.5 billion years not enough time to evolve to what we have today?  It takes no faith to believe in evolution of species.  Macroevolution is simply microevolution on a grander scale, why is that so hard to accept? 

 

[MSBS]

Originally posted by Nathan Poe
Why do evolutionists debate?

Well, I can only speak for myself...

I debate to improve myself, not to "save" people, and not to score points with God.

I debate because I'll be a better thinker for the experience, regardless of whether I win or lose.

I debate because I want to hear from people with different points of view, and learn why they hold them.

I debate because I'm not arrogant enough to believe I have all the answers.

I debate because I'm not lazy enough to wait for answers to be handed to me on a silver platter.

I debate because I want to shake some thoughts into people who never dreamed to question what they've been taught.

I debate because I consider it a sign of mutual respect to match wits with someone on a level playing field.

I debate because I have a mind. Use it or lose it.

I debate because I want that mind to stay sharp.

"Iron rusts from disuse; water that does not flow becomes stagnant; so it is with the human mind." --Leonardo Da Vinci

or perhaps you'd prefer

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" --Proverbs 27:17

Excellent response. I have to say for my part, that the short time I've been posting here on the Christian Forums I've had to do more reading (outside sources, not just on the forums ) and changed more opinions then from any class that I've taken (besides maybe O-chem). Ultimately, I've studied more about evolution then I have for any graduate biology class that I've taken and more about the bible and Christianity than I have in the whole rest of my life. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than sitting around and agreeing with myself. Even if some of you do kind of tic me off on occasion.

 

[Warrior FC]

Originally posted by Nathan Poe
Why do evolutionists debate?

Well, I can only speak for myself...

I debate to improve myself, not to "save" people, and not to score points with God.

I debate because I'll be a better thinker for the experience, regardless of whether I win or lose.

I debate because I want to hear from people with different points of view, and learn why they hold them.

I debate because I'm not arrogant enough to believe I have all the answers.

I debate because I'm not lazy enough to wait for answers to be handed to me on a silver platter.

I debate because I want to shake some thoughts into people who never dreamed to question what they've been taught.

I debate because I consider it a sign of mutual respect to match wits with someone on a level playing field.

I debate because I have a mind. Use it or lose it.

I debate because I want that mind to stay sharp.

"Iron rusts from disuse; water that does not flow becomes stagnant; so it is with the human mind." --Leonardo Da Vinci

or perhaps you'd prefer

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" --Proverbs 27:17

 

Very good..... Thanks for your resonse on why you debate!

Now will you also answer this questions?

What benefit will be gained by believing in evolution?

 

[MSBS]

Originally posted by Warrior FC
What benefit will be gained by believing in evolution?

Because it is a well supported theory that is used quite often in biological research. The benefit is that you know what it is about, and can apply it in practical ways. For instance, I use molecular biological techniques that are derived from naturally occurring process that were first elucidated while studying evolution in bacteria. I have been using these techniques to examine some of the genes that are important in the ability of a bacteria to cause disease in humans. Others have used these same techniques to insert genes into various organisms that produce specific enzymes used in biomedical research as well as genes that produce specific drugs.

Furthermore, the study of the molecular mechanisms of evolution has lead to current experimental techniques in gene therapy, to genetic testing used for genetic counseling for parents to be, assessment of genetic susceptibility to disease, and police forensics, and to the science behind the various genome projects.

Ultimatly, evolution is part and parcel to modern biology. While I've pointed out a few of the practical things that have come from it, even if it were just blue sky no purpose in the world trivia, it's still the best and most supported theory we have about the diversity of life. If you don't want to bother with science, then fine, don't worry about it. It won't hurt you. Just like it wouldn't really hurt you to not believe in a round earth or a heliocentric solar system.

 

[Warrior FC]

Originally posted by MSBS
Because it is a well supported theory that is used quite often in biological research. The benefit is that you know what it is about, and can apply it in practical ways. For instance, I use molecular biological techniques that are derived from naturally occurring process that were first elucidated while studying evolution in bacteria. I have been using these techniques to examine some of the genes that are important in the ability of a bacteria to cause disease in humans. Others have used these same techniques to insert genes into various organisms that produce specific enzymes used in biomedical research as well as genes that produce specific drugs.

Furthermore, the study of the molecular mechanisms of evolution has lead to current experimental techniques in gene therapy, to genetic testing used for genetic counseling for parents to be, assessment of genetic susceptibility to disease, and police forensics, and to the science behind the various genome projects.

Ultimatly, evolution is part and parcel to modern biology. While I've pointed out a few of the practical things that have come from it, even if it were just blue sky no purpose in the world trivia, it's still the best and most supported theory we have about the diversity of life. If you don't want to bother with science, then fine, don't worry about it. It won't hurt you. Just like it wouldn't really hurt you to not believe in a round earth or a heliocentric solar system.

Thanks for your response and the sincerity of your answer!

If I were to quit believing in God as my creator and was somehow persuaded by you or others to start believing in evolution as being the reason for my existance, I can honestly say, I would no longer feel as if I had a purpose in life or a future... "I would be simply just existing"! So I can hope you may understand from a christian perspective that evolution goes directly against the hope and future we as christian have in our God for etenal life through him!

And I feel very much obligated to defend the faith for weaker christians that may be persuaded by evolutionists because it could be very destuctive to those that are just learning to have faith and trust in God!

Evolution has no beneficial HOPE for our future while christianinty does!

 

[MSBS]

Well Warrior FC, I have absolutely no doubt about your sincerity! I would, however, say that you are mixing apples and oranges. Evolution is not, repeat, not, atheism, and I have no desire to teach you about evolution in order to harm your faith. You asked questions on a public forum so I responded. If someone said they had lost their faith because of something I had said, I would be likely to tell them they should re-examine their faith and look for a broader understanding, not outright rejection.

BTW, my thesis advisor and one of my lab mates are Christians, and hold beliefs ranging from theistic evolution to old earth creationism with a bit of ID thrown in. Evolution and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.

I would say that your particular version of Christianity, and it's insistence on being anti-science, is what leads to people having conflicts that leads to them leaving the church. IMHO, Someone brought up to believe that science is false has very little defense for their religion when faced with the actuality of scientific evidence and not the caricature that creationists have taught them. Then, having one aspect of their beliefs shattered, they can have doubt about everything that they have been taught. Just a thought.

edited for spelling and clarity of thought

 

[Nathan Poe]

Originally posted by Warrior FC
Thanks for your response and the sincerity of your answer!

If I were to quit believing in God as my creator and was somehow persuaded by you or others to start believing in evolution as being the reason for my existance, I can honestly say, I would no longer feel as if I had a purpose in life or a future... "I would be simply just existing"! So I can hope you may understand from a christian perspective that evolution goes directly against the hope and future we as christian have in our God for etenal life through him!

a classic "Evolution=Atheism" misconception. Evolution is not the "reason" for our existence, it is only the method, or as a science teacher once told me, "God explains why, science explains how."
We need to provide the reason for our own existence. You have provided that reason for yourself: to praise and glorify God. Whatever works for you.

And I feel very much obligated to defend the faith for weaker christians that may be persuaded by evolutionists because it could be very destuctive to those that are just learning to have faith and trust in God!

And is it your place to decide who the "weaker" Christians are, and tell them what to believe? Is your faith so perfect that you can "enlighten" the poor misguided souls? Who are you to sit in judgement of others, especially fellow Christians?

Evolution has no beneficial HOPE for our future while christianinty does!

Perhaps, but that proves nothing.
What you have here is an "Argument from Adverse Consequences" fallacy. If evolution is true, it would be unplesant, therefore you claim it's false. Truth, however, is not always pretty.
I believe in evolution not because it gives meaning to my life, but because I believe it to be true. Does it fill me with a good warm fuzzy feeling that Chrsitianity probably would? No. But I would rather base my thinking on an unplesant truth than a comforting fantasy.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Warrior FC

If I were to quit believing in God as my creator and was somehow persuaded by you or others to start believing in evolution as being the reason for my existance, I can honestly say, I would no longer feel as if I had a purpose in life or a future... "I would be simply just existing"! So I can hope you may understand from a christian perspective that evolution goes directly against the hope and future we as christian have in our God for etenal life through him!

I don't understand this "Christian perspective" at all! God used evolution to create humans and animals, and he used natural methods to shape the earth over 4.5 billion years. God created evolution and used it; that's what I believe, and I consider myself a Christian.

-Chris

 

[Warrior FC]

Originally posted by kern
I don't understand this "Christian perspective" at all! God used evolution to create humans and animals, and he used natural methods to shape the earth over 4.5 billion years. God created evolution and used it; that's what I believe, and I consider myself a Christian.

-Chris

Do you believe that the bible was given to us by God?

If so, it states that all animals and such reproduce after it's own kind!

Bird reproduce birds!

Ants reproduce ants!

Monkeys reproduce monkeys!

Humans reproduce humans!

The bible also says that we (man) was formed from the dust of the earth! We were formed as a man... not a monkey, not a fish, not a blob of cells, not a chicken!, but a MAN!

If you claim to be a christian, you also claim that the bible is the truth!

 

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Warrior FC

If you claim to be a christian, you also claim that the bible is the truth!

For certain definitions of "truth". Genesis is not a science textbook, it's a religious work showing the origin of life in God. It's not specific about methods used, and it speaks in general non-scientific terms.

And yes, I do "claim" to be a Christian. I also "claim" to accept evolution. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

-Chris

 

[seebs]

I think the Bible is "the truth" too, but that doesn't mean that I think I know for sure how many angels were at the tomb, or that I believe that the rituals for avoiding leprosy described in the Old Testament are as good a match as modern germ theory of disease.

I read the opening parts of Genesis, and I find that God made the world, that the world is good, that God made us, and that we are good, but that through us sin entered the world. I don't really care about the "flavor text"; I don't see it as important.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by kern
For certain definitions of "truth". Genesis is not a science textbook, it's a religious work showing the origin of life in God. It's not specific about methods used, and it speaks in general non-scientific terms.

And yes, I do "claim" to be a Christian. I also "claim" to accept evolution. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

-Chris

How do you reconcile there not being death in the world until mankind came along and sinned? Or do you not take that literally? And if so, why does mankind need to be saved?

Thanks!

 

[seebs]

I think it's spiritual death. Before there were humans with souls - before God gave us the "breath of life" - there was nothing with souls, and animals dying isn't "death in the world"; it's just nature following its course.

Why do we need to be saved? Because we are not self-sufficient; if we wish to partake of eternal life, we need God's help. Because we're sinful, and we need grace. I don't see this as depending on the very literal question of whether someone ate an apple; God doesn't generally hold us responsible for the choices of other people. Rather, I see it as depending on the understanding that, by being free-willed and not perfectly obedient, we end up needing grace, and this has been with us since the beginning.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Who do you reconcile there not being death in the world until mankind came along and sinned?

I think this referred primarily to *human* death rather than animals, and I also think it refers primarily to spiritual death. As seebs said, Adam did not suddenly and literally die when he ate the fruit, in fact he lived for hundreds of years after that. But he was *spiritually* dead because his sins had cast him out of paradise.

I personally do not take the Adam and Eve story as literal -- the important message of the story is that mankind used the free will it received from God to sin. I realize this may cause some problems with Catholic doctrine, but that's something I have to deal with myself.

And if so, why does mankind need to be saved?

Because mankind sins. Even if the doctrine of Original Sin did not exist, you would still not be able to live a sinless life. It's just impossible for us.

-Chris

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

and animals dying isn't "death in the world"; it's just nature following its course.

Fair enough, but how is one animal eating another one alive, "very good?" It doesn't look "very good" to me when I see it on the Discovery Channel.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

As an "evolutionist", why do I debate?
Mostly to learn more.
Also to share ideas and facts with people interested in a similar topic.
And to meet (in a sense) people from around the world.

I am NOT here to turn anyone away from God or have them abandon religion.