Why do Christians wear crosses?

[Mobiosity]

Actually, the nature of the answers does reveal the underlying causes of religious belief.

Actually, the nature and phrasing of the question is to justify your viewpoint.

Well then, all you need to do to prove me wrong is produce a single shred of sound, objective evidence that your God is anything other than imaginary. Can you? Has anyone—ever?

And, I suppose you are to be the arbiter of whether this "evidence" you seek is sound and/or objective. Pretty handy way of never been wrong.

 

[rosenherman]

Can you? Has anyone—ever?

Why shure they have

 

[3sigma]

So how is mocking us and ridiculing our beliefs (which on any other board, the moderators would not allow) "exploring the underlying causes oif religious believe and religious believers' behavior"?

Could you please give me some examples of where you think I’ve mocked or ridiculed your beliefs rather than just asked questions or accurately described your beliefs? I don’t consider asking you for evidence to support your beliefs to be mocking or ridiculing them. I think it is reasonable for me to ask you to show that what you or other religious believers say is true. By the way, could you please refrain from placing something in quotes unless you copy and paste it directly from someone’s posts. It conveys a false impression when you introduce typographical, grammatical and spelling errors and then represent it as something I wrote.

So then, rather than asking people to clarify, you just decided to show us how childish and rude you can be?

I have been asking people to clarify their responses. I’ve also been asking them to provide evidence to show that what they were saying was true. You may consider my requests to be harsh or blunt, but I’m not one to hide behind euphemisms.

It is also revealing that you seem to consider a request for evidence to be an attack on your beliefs.

And it is even more revealing that you would falsely claim that I consider a request for evidence an attack on my beliefs.

Note that I didn’t claim that you consider a request for evidence to be an attack on your beliefs. I said that is the way it seems.

I never said anything about any "request for evidence". I was refering to your childish mockery and rude comments about our belief.

No, you didn’t make it apparent that I was requesting evidence because you didn’t present my quote in context. Here is what you wrote and the quote of mine to which you were referring.

First, you made the unjustifiable claim (in all caps, mind you) that your heavenly father loves you, even though there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence to show that your “heavenly father” even exists.

So, is your purpose here to ask why some Christians wear crosses or to attack our beliefs?

Now here is that quote of mine in context.

First, you made the unjustifiable claim (in all caps, mind you) that your heavenly father loves you, even though there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence to show that your “heavenly father” even exists. I asked you if it isn’t more correct to say that it is just your belief that your heavenly father loves you, but you responded by adamantly insisting that your claim has been demonstrated concretely, unmistakeably and undeniably. However, I challenge you to produce a scrap of sound, objective evidence to show that this God of yours—that you claim loves you—is anything other than imaginary.

Note how I first explained the situation then asked for evidence to show that what ephraimanesti wrote had even the remotest possibility of being true. Bear in mind that he vehemently denied that it was just his belief that his heavenly father loves him. He adamantly insisted that it was actually true. To show that his claim has even a remote possibility of being true, he first needs to show that his heavenly father even exists. Is it childish mockery to ask religious believers to actually support their assertions of fact with at least some sound, objective evidence?

The underlying cause is that we have examined the evidence for ourselves and have found it to be true. ((And, no, I'm not going to get into an argument with you over what that evidence is.))

Indeed, one of the underlying causes of religious belief is that you are ready to believe especially on slight or uncertain evidence. However, the fact remains that there is no sound, objective evidence supporting your belief and I’m not surprised that you would evade any request to actually provide such evidence.

 

[3sigma]

And, I suppose you are to be the arbiter of whether this "evidence" you seek is sound and/or objective. Pretty handy way of never been wrong.

Then you suppose incorrectly. I’m referring to the dictionary meanings of sound and objective so I’m expecting evidence that is free from error, fallacy or misapprehension and independent of individual thought. This means that I would not accept personal experiences, anecdotes, unsupported assertions or feelings as evidence, but that seems to be all that religious believers need or can offer.

I can’t help noticing, though, that you evaded my questions and made no attempt to provide any such evidence. Can you provide any sound, objective evidence that your God is anything other than imaginary? I suspect that you can’t, but if you think you can then please do.

 

[3sigma]

Why shure they have

That’s wonderful news, if true. I’ve been waiting all my life for someone to provide some sound, objective evidence that your God is anything but imaginary. Please show me this evidence so that I too can accept that your God is real.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Moderators, what is the purpose of this thread, other than to debate? Isn't that against the forum specific rules of Exploring Christianity?

 

[3sigma]

Moderators, what is the purpose of this thread, other than to debate? Isn't that against the forum specific rules of Exploring Christianity?

If you read the forum specific guidelines, you will find that the only prohibition against debate is against Christians debating each other on points of doctrinal difference. After all, we can’t have non-Christians receiving the impression that there is no agreement among Christians on which of their beliefs are true and which are not.

The purpose of this thread is in keeping with the purpose of this forum.

Exploring Christianity Forum
This is a forum where non-Christians are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christians can enter into discussion with them on these questions.

We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith.

One aspect of the Christian faith that I find hard to accept (without sound evidence to support it) is the proposition that your God is real. One aspect of the Christian faith that I find hard to understand is why people would believe that proposition is true when there isn’t a single shred of sound, objective evidence to show that it is true. I also find I often need to probe the vague and evasive responses given by Christians until I receive actual answers to my questions.

You seem unwilling or unable to answer the questions in my posts above so let me ask some questions that you should be able to answer because you will have firsthand knowledge of the answers.

Do you believe that the proposition that your God is real is true? Did you find sound, objective evidence to show you that it is true? If so, what was that evidence? If not then what evidence did you find? Did you find unsound, subjective evidence—evidence riddled with errors, fallacies or misapprehension and purely a product of your imagination—and from that somehow conclude that the proposition is true? Or did you find no evidence whatsoever to support the proposition, yet somehow still convinced yourself that it is true?

 

[Mobiosity]

Answered prayer, healing and experiencing His presence have all been sufficient for me. Since you weren't there with me, you won't find my evidence sufficient for your purposes.

 

[Mobiosity]

That’s wonderful news, if true. I’ve been waiting all my life for someone to provide some sound, objective evidence that your God is anything but imaginary. Please show me this evidence so that I too can accept that your God is real.

He isn't "her" God or "my" God or "your" God. The evidence leading each person to God can be different. Do some research, read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ", or one of Philip Yancey's books:
A Skeptic's Guide to Faith
Disappointment with God
Where Is God When It Hurts?
What's So Amazing About Grace?
Reaching for the Invisible God
The Jesus I Never Knew

They might lead you to places you never expected.

 

[seashale76]

This is something that has intrigued me for some time. Some Christians I meet display a cross on a chain around their neck. Could the Christians here who similarly wear a cross please explain why you do it?

I wasn't always Orthodox, but I did have a cross that was given to me by my grandfather that had special sentimental meaning to me. I used to wear it occasionally, meaning, not often.

However, when I became Orthodox, I started wearing a baptismal cross, which is an Orthodox cross. It is a cross that has a three bar cross inside, the Greek letters IC XC and it says 'save and protect' in Slavonic on the back. I rarely take it off. I don't wear it because I want to 'show' that I'm a Christian- and if it were a work requirement or something- I'd simply get a longer chain so the cross could be easily hidden under my clothes. It's not simply a symbol to me- there is power in the sign of the cross for a believing Christian. It is a protection and a blessing. We are also encouraged to make the sign of the cross VERY often. The earliest Christians made the sign of the cross- it is even mentioned by St. Athansisus in On the Incarnation.

Both of my crosses are pretty, but adhering to some fashionable Orthodox standards for being chic and bragging about my faith isn't the objective.

 

[ephraimanesti]

First, you made the unjustifiable claim (in all caps, mind you) that your heavenly father loves you, even though there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence to show that your “heavenly father” even exists. I asked you if it isn’t more correct to say that it is just your belief that your heavenly father loves you, but you responded by adamantly insisting that your claim has been demonstrated concretely, unmistakeably and undeniably. However, I challenge you to produce a scrap of sound, objective evidence to show that this God of yours—that you claim loves you—is anything other than imaginary.

Abba, through the Loving use of His Grace and His Power has turned my life--and consequently the lives of those close to me--from a living hell into a most blessed and glorious paradise since i threw myself on His Mercy and asked Him to do so 10 years or so ago.

i require no other "proof" beyond His answer to my desperate prayer.

i feel very sad about you.

I also asked you if you would forget without the constant reminder of the cross around your neck and whether the cross was perhaps a display to others that you felt privileged to be so favoured by your God and you answered affirmatively to both questions.

Yes. In my weakness, when i allow things around me in this crazy world to start getting to me, it occasionally helps sometimes to have a tangible symbol of what REALLY matters in life to hang onto until the gale of illusions subsides.

Likewise, as others have affirmed, i think it is well to "advertise" with a visual testimony of how favored i have been by God and His Love-filled Grace by reminding others that they, too, are Abba's favored children who, like me, can avail themselves of His Love and His Power to live lives--with Him at the Center--which they cannot even begin to imagine. Just ask and reach out . . . .

Again, i feel very sad about you on both counts. i remember what it was like.

How were my questions to you derisive, contemptuous and venomous? How did my questions hold you up to ridicule? You ask to what end do I ask these questions. I ask them because I wish to explore the underlying causes of religious belief and religious believers’ behaviour. My questions may seem needling to you, but I’ve found that pointed questions produce the most revealing responses. The more responses I receive, the more clear the underlying causes become.

You are begging the question. TO WHAT END?

My personal belief is that you have a desperate need to feel superior to someone and Christians probably seem like the easiest victims to use to achieve that end. i can think of no other payoff that could accrue from the expenditure of your time and effort in what you are doing under the guise of "seeking answers".

Although i believe--being a psych major in college and thus knowing at least the rudaments of how what atheists characterize as "the human evolved-animal-mind" operates--that it is remotely possible that you are unaware of how "derisive, contemptuous and venomous" your statements regarding the Christian Faith actually are to those who hold them--especially in regards to our Lord's most Holy Cross which is the ultimate symbol of God's sacrificial Love for us all--i actually believe that it is more likely that it is just another facet of the above-mentioned self-serving need to ridicule which led to the question--bait--being presented in the first place.

Just my opinion.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[3sigma]

Answered prayer, healing and experiencing His presence have all been sufficient for me. Since you weren't there with me, you won't find my evidence sufficient for your purposes.

It isn’t because I wasn’t there that I don’t believe you. It’s because all you’ve offered are unsupported assertions, anecdotes and subjective feelings, none of which are likely to be either sound or objective.

He isn't "her" God or "my" God or "your" God. The evidence leading each person to God can be different. Do some research, read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ", or one of Philip Yancey's books:

When I say your God, I mean whatever it is that you think of as being God. I expect this to be different for each individual because it appears to be based purely on imagination. Has anyone ever detected your God by any objective means—for example, by using any kind of instrument? If so, what did they find? Is it matter, energy or what?

I haven’t read any of those books, but I did a Google search on the term '”the case for Christ” review' and read several of the reviews. They are predominantly negative and lead me to believe that Strobel provides no sound, objective evidence that your God or any other God is real. If you have read any of these books and you think they provide sound, objective evidence that your God is real then please present it here. I’m really quite eager to see it.

 

[3sigma]

It's not simply a symbol to me- there is power in the sign of the cross for a believing Christian. It is a protection and a blessing.

So you use it as a talisman to ward off evil and bring good fortune? Do you have any sound, objective evidence that it actually does this or are you just using your imagination to overcome your insecurity? If you have such evidence then please present it here. I’m eager to see this evidence as well.

 

[3sigma]

i require no other "proof" beyond His answer to my desperate prayer.

I’m not surprised. However, I’m not insecure and credulous enough to believe that your God is real without some sound, objective evidence to show that it is true. Can you provide any such evidence to show that your God is real? This is an important question. Your core belief is that your God is real because nearly all your other religious beliefs depend on this core belief. If it isn’t actually true then all the other beliefs that depend on it are also self-deception. If your God isn’t real then it didn’t create anything, Jesus wasn’t its son or God incarnate, it doesn’t perform miracles, it doesn’t transport people to heaven after they die and it doesn’t answer your prayers. So again, can you provide any sound, objective evidence to show that your God is anything other than imaginary? You appear to be unwilling or completely unable to provide any such evidence so I have to ask you the same questions I asked Bro Sam.

Do you believe that the proposition that your God is real is true? Did you find sound, objective evidence to show you that it is true? If so, what was that evidence? If not then what evidence did you find? Did you find unsound, subjective evidence—evidence riddled with errors, fallacies or misapprehension and purely a product of your imagination—and from that somehow conclude that the proposition is true? Or did you find no evidence whatsoever to support the proposition, yet somehow still convinced yourself that it is true?

 

[seashale76]

So you use it as a talisman to ward off evil and bring good fortune? Do you have any sound, objective evidence that it actually does this or are you just using your imagination to overcome your insecurity? If you have such evidence then please present it here. I’m eager to see this evidence as well.

Wow, you know, after getting this response, I went back and read the thread (yeah- I know I should have done that before responding in the first place)- because your response to me here and to others is quite different than your OP. You're rude and transparently disingenuous. It isn't exactly inspiring enough to make me want to continue any sort of civil discussion with you. It's obvious you don't want to know anything about Christianity- you're attacking the faith and trying to get others to become as miserable as you must be. How's that working for you?

And for the record- how does this game work exactly? Ah yes- anything I respond with you'll find a reason to reject it- especially if it isn't the answer you were expecting (and even more so if it is the answer you were expecting). I've seen this game played before. Shame on me for actually giving you the benefit of the doubt though.

 

[3sigma]

You're rude and transparently disingenuous. It isn't exactly inspiring enough to make me want to continue any sort of civil discussion with you. It's obvious you don't want to know anything about Christianity- you're attacking the faith and trying to get others to become as miserable as you must be. How's that working for you?

How is it rude or disingenuous to ask you questions about what your beliefs are, why you hold them and whether you have evidence to support them?

Are you unable or unwilling to produce any evidence that your cross is a talisman? A talisman is an object held to act as a charm to avert evil and bring good fortune and you wrote that “there is power in the sign of the cross for a believing Christian” and that your cross “is a protection and a blessing” so it certainly seems to be a talisman to you.

I do want to know about Christianity. I want to know why you believe the things you do. For example, why do you believe that your cross has power and is a protection and a blessing when I suspect that there isn’t a shred of sound, objective evidence to support that belief? Or is it just that wearing your cross is comforting to you and you only imagine it protects you?

I can’t even remember the last time I felt miserable. In fact, now that I think about it, I don’t think I’ve been miserable since I was a small child so I guess life is working out pretty well for me. Thank you for asking.

 

[3sigma]

And for the record- how does this game work exactly? Ah yes- anything I respond with you'll find a reason to reject it- especially if it isn't the answer you were expecting (and even more so if it is the answer you were expecting).

I missed this bit you added while I was composing my previous response. Where have I rejected anything you’ve said? I haven’t yet rejected what you said. I’m just waiting for you to show me that what you said is true. However, if you can’t show me that what you said is true then what am I supposed to do—just believe it anyway?

 

[Golden Maven]

How is it rude or disingenuous to ask you questions about what your beliefs are, why you hold them and whether you have evidence to support them?

That's what makes this discussion so difficult and fruitless. There is no evidence either way. Both sides (atheists vs. theists) are operating on some form on faith. One is living with the idea of a God, and the other does not. Fact is, neither side truly knows from an intellectual standpoint.

Believe me, I've read Christian vs. disbelievers discussion for months. There's just no clear-cut scientific conclusion to be found. It it were that easy, Christianity wouldn't be the n1 religion in the world, and atheism/agnostism wouldn't be on the rise.

 

[ephraimanesti]

So again, can you provide any sound, objective evidence to show that your God is anything other than imaginary? Do you believe that the proposition that your God is real is true? Did you find sound, objective evidence to show you that it is true? If so, what was that evidence? If not then what evidence did you find? Did you find unsound, subjective evidence—evidence riddled with errors, fallacies or misapprehension and purely a product of your imagination—and from that somehow conclude that the proposition is true? Or did you find no evidence whatsoever to support the proposition, yet somehow still convinced yourself that it is true?

MY FRIEND,

This is what i have found demonstrated in my life over the last 10 years or so since i have opened my heart to Abba:

"The life of the soul is rooted in Faith, in the presence of God and the touch of the Spirit in every moment of our becoming. No matter how powerful other forces are in our lives, the Love of God holds and keeps us each. God's unceasing love for us and care for our souls is a gift, a grace available in every moment."

from SOULS IN THE HANDS OF A TENDER GOD by Craig Rennebohm​

The above statement is the ultimate in objective evidence as it is provable moment to moment and accessible to all who seek it.

The problem you are encountering appears to be a lack of humility--an inability to fall on your knees before your Creator God and ask for what you so obviously and desperately need--God's Love and God's Light. Without these things you remain in your darkness, ludicrously attempting unsuccessfully to attack the Beliefs of those who have stepped out of that darkness and into God's Eternal Light.

May God grant you the Grace to become a Man in the Scriptural sense of the word (as opposed to Darwin's) and become that which you were created to be--the image and likeness of God--rather than a caricature of this image and likeness, mumbling and grumbling in the darkness.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[rosenherman]

It isn’t because I wasn’t there that I don’t believe you. It’s because all you’ve offered are unsupported assertions, anecdotes and subjective feelings, none of which are likely to be either sound or objective.


When I say your God, I mean whatever it is that you think of as being God. I expect this to be different for each individual because it appears to be based purely on imagination. Has anyone ever detected your God by any objective means—for example, by using any kind of instrument? If so, what did they find? Is it matter, energy or what?

I haven’t read any of those books, but I did a Google search on the term '”the case for Christ” review' and read several of the reviews. They are predominantly negative and lead me to believe that Strobel provides no sound, objective evidence that your God or any other God is real. If you have read any of these books and you think they provide sound, objective evidence that your God is real then please present it here. I’m really quite eager to see it.

You really need to do as Mobiosity suggested. Do your own research. You shouldn't take reviews on google as being a source. Reviews really aren't much good if you don't know more about the reviewer than their screen name. Go to the library if you don't want to pay for the book(s).