I wouldn't want to make assumptions. But I've seen a lot of Christian prayers, and they always seem to be only for things that might happen anyway. I was just wondering why that is.
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I wouldn't want to make assumptions. But I've seen a lot of Christian prayers, and they always seem to be only for things that might happen anyway. I was just wondering why that is.You don't know what I pray for, or how I pray for it. Don't make these assumptions.
Okay, thank you for your reply. I have to point out that I am just making sure I understand you correctly so that I don't do you the disservice of misrepresenting your views when I answer them.You got most of it, but one big difference: “It is not that ‘God prefers’, but I and other humans need to have this very simple easy method of expressing a very little faith to help with our humility.”
I know you do not think the Garden story is real, but you can still get a lot of information from that story. God shows us His preference for us is daily walking with us and having us in a wonderful place, but one thing we learn from the story is the Garden is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
The objective drives everything and the need to express just a little faith helps with the objective.
I wouldn't want to make assumptions. But I've seen a lot of Christian prayers, and they always seem to be only for things that might happen anyway. I was just wondering why that is.
Like healing an amputee? Like reversing a Downs syndrome condition?Perhaps some things are simply impossible logically, and not by a lack of God's freedom? Like making a square circle, for instance.
All the stories of the miracles that happened are not proof for the skeptic?Okay, thank you for your reply. I have to point out that I am just making sure I understand you correctly so that I don't do you the disservice of misrepresenting your views when I answer them.
Now, here is my problem with what you wrote. First, it is contradicted by Christianity itself. We see God performing miracles all the time, in the stories about Him. He resurrects the dead, he helps people walk on water, He heals the sick in impossible ways, parts oceans, sends food and fire down from heaven.
You say that God will not reveal Himself too openly, for fear of depriving people of the gift of faith, but this is obviously not so; He's been doing exactly that for millenia. More than that, Christians frequently claim that God is revealed already - that His presence is so obvious, it takes an act of will to disbelieve in Him, and that the Resurrection is so undeniable that it is proof of Christianity. I've seen these arguments many times, and I'm sure you have too.
God does “reveal” Himself to Christians, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no issue for a Loving devotion.The second objection is that the idea that God must not reveal Himself too openly because it would deprive us of the gift of faith doesn't make sense on its own terms. How does it harm our love and devotion to God if He reveals that He exists? It would still be our free choice how we react to that knowledge. It's impossible to love a person until you know that they are real. Christians believe that God is real, and so can love Him, but unbelievers cannot love God, even if they wish to, since as far as they are concerned He doesn't even exist.
However, it doesn't matter that your argument fails on its own terms, because my question was: why do Christians only pray to God for things that might happen naturally, and never pray for the impossible?
I would use 1 Cor. 13:10 to show why the outward obvious miracles have ceased, but I do not think you would like to go into the Greek for an answer.So, never mind that the argument is flawed - it's quite possible that Christians believe it, and don't ask God to answer impossible prayers because they know that He will not, for the reasons you have stated. But the problem is, that answer doesn't make sense either. Quite simply, that is not what Christians believe - with the exception of the few apologists who invented the argument. Christians around here, would you say that's true? @cvanwey, and other nonbelievers who spent decades around here, is there some secret rule that Christians know about, that they won't ask God for impossible things because He doesn't want to show Himself too clearly? Is there anywhere in the Bible where we can find support for this? Well, you can probably find isolated verses in the Bible to justify anything, of course, but it goes against the whole narrative of the Bible, about a God who very much does reveal Himself, in many and obvious ways.
So it seems that this is just an after-the-fact rationalisation, thought up to justify the fact that God does not in fact answer impossible prayers - as we saw earlier in this thread, in the case of the unfortunate girl who died and whose parents tried to pray her back to life.
So this brings us back to the question: why do Christians only pray to God for things that might naturally occur anyway?
And the only answer I can think of is that they believe - from personal and historical and cultural experience - that God doesn't actually answer impossible prayers, ever.
Now as an atheist, I'm pretty sure I know the reason why. But for a Christian, this poses a big problem, if they think about it. Christians believe that God does answer prayers; why not impossible ones? Why not miracles? Oh, sure, not all the time - but at least some of the time? Even once? There's so many stories of God answering such prayers, even stories from modern times. But we never get to hear about them ourselves.
I'd better point out, you're arguing against something I'm not saying.All the stories of the miracles that happened are not proof for the skeptic?
It is not “depriving people of faith”, but it provides the easiest away to exercise humility by having a faith in God.
If you already believe in the supernatural, then witnessing the supernatural is not going add to the persons trust in a god and that is the way it was for of man’s time on earth.
There is a huge difference between the way people viewed the supernatural back in Christ’s time and earlier and the way we view it today. There are also the way things were handled under the Jewish dispensation and the way it is today, especially among developed nations. Many third world people contribute any change to the supernatural, so “evidence” of the supernatural for them, just means some spiritual being doing something and does nothing to proof the existence of the Christian God. This also seems to be the way people at Christ’s time and earlier viewed real or perceived “supernatural” events.
I know we would all say today: “If I saw the parting of the sea and walked on the dry land, I would solidly believe ‘God existed’.” But it did not make those people into trusting followers, so why would it automatically make you a trusted follower?
Under the Jewish Old Testament, they were God’s physical nation with actual physical boarders and so they had a very physical relationship, which included the promise of being physically blessed with obedience and physically disciplined with turning against God. It was a kind of; “Health and wealth” gospel, so lots of outward obvious miracles to help the Jews, the Jews were not questioning the existence of God, but some thought He was not the only god out there.
From Pentecost until the destruction of Jerusalem we have a miraculous transition period to the Christian dispensation and the measure of the indwelling Holy Spirit being given to all Christians as an assurance of God fulfilling all His promises. Christians have this guarantee individually and not to be a guarantee for nonbelievers, so we have assurance like the obvious miracles of old, but it is only obvious to those who accept the Spirit.
The “gift of Faith” is a natural faith, given to all mature adults, which can use their free will to direct it where they please. The same Greek word for “faith” can be translated “Faithfulness” which is another gift given to just believers.
God does “reveal” Himself to Christians, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no issue for a Loving devotion.
The nonbeliever has no reason to devote themselves to God, he/she is hell bound.
I fully agree with you here: “unbelievers cannot love God, even if they wish to, since as far as they are concerned He doesn't even exist”, but the problem is not with “knowing God exists”, but with accepting God’s Love/charity as charity.
I would use 1 Cor. 13:10 to show why the outward obvious miracles have ceased, but I do not think you would like to go into the Greek for an answer.
I do not pray for your miraculous salvation, because that is up to your free will choice, but I do pray for the right words to lead you.
I do not pray for this world to become like the Garden of Eden with no one hurting, no death, no needy people, everything beautiful and wonderful, since this messed up world is a huge opportunity for me to show God in the form of Love, to experience that Love, to grow that Love, to give that Love and receive that Love. I am to be a peace maker in a world of conflict, to show Christ.
Think about this:
If you knew for certain that the Christian God did exist, how would it change you for the good?
Most atheist I have known do not like their understanding of the Christian God, so would really not like to know He even existed.
Good point and I will try to avoid getting off topic.I'd better point out, you're arguing against something I'm not saying.
We're not talking about atheists here, we're talking about Christians. You're making an interesting case, and in other circumstances I'd enjoy debating it with you. But you seem to misunderstand, I'm not discussing whether or not the alleged miracles that God performed are or should be good evidence for atheists. I'm asking why Christians, who believe that God has performed such miracles many times, do not ask for them.
It's not that these Christians are opposed to asking God for things. They ask Him for things all the time. You may not yourself, but I'm not asking about you. I'm asking about the Christians who do pray to God to give them things. Health, wealth, happiness. There are plenty of Christians who pray all the time.
I'm asking why it is that they don't ask God for actual miracles, for something that could not happen by chance, but only by actual intervention from God.
It doesn't make sense to say that Christians don't like to ask God for things. I'm asking about those who do.
You said, "All the stories of the miracles that happened are not proof for the skeptic?"
It sounds like all the stories of the miracles that happened are not proof enough for the Christians. Because from the way they act, it seems like they don't believe God actually performs miracles. They say they believe in God, but they act as if they live in a universe in which God does not exist.
I think you're missing the point.What do you think: “Do you need two good legs, two good eyes, excellent health, money, and an easy life, to get to heaven?” And how would it even help to get a person there?
I never suggested not praying, since we are to pray without ceasing. The Bible is full of things to pray for like: wisdom, boldness, strength to do God’s will, knowledge to know what to say, allowing the Spirit more control, encouragement, softer hearts, peace of mind during troubling times and others.I think you're missing the point.
By your logic, one should never pray to God to ask for anything. You are arguing against petitionary prayer in any way. Fair enough, that's a point of view, and one I'm not unsympathetic to. But that is not the point here. that's not what we're discussing.
We are talking about the Christians who actually do believe that God wants them to ask Him for things, who do pray to God - lovingly, trustingly, faithfully and with the best of intentions, I'm sure - and who, moreover, do believe that God grants prayers, did so in the Bible, and has continued to do so right up until the present day.
You asked if all of the miracle stories weren't enough for skeptics. But we're not talking about skeptics here. We're talking about Christians. In saying that, you made my argument for me. We live, Christians believe, in a world in which God does answer prayers, often with the most miraculous results.
So why - asking again, on the seventh page - do Christians who do pray to God, do ask Him for things, and do believe He answers their prayers and has given them things such as opportunities, healing and blessings...
Why do they only ever pray for things which might be expected to happen anyway, with luck?
If you or some other respondent could actually focus on this question and address it, I would be most grateful.
Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.
They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?
Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?
Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.
Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.
Very confusing.
Hmm.....
I have a question for you....
What if you're simply not in the crew of Jesus followers who are praying for the impossible,
and where the impossible is taking place, it's so dangerous--- say China--- to say anything about it beyond those whose lives are so impacted?
In the bible, Jesus raised a guy named Lazarus from the dead. John 11. So profound it was that the religious leadership wanted to kill him, because his resurrection resulted in a large number of Jewish people turning to Jesus, and believing him. Imaging talking about Joe down the street dying, and then some christians (who are literally outlaws in China) praying for Joe, and Joe coming back from the dead. That kind of stuff would bring the Chinese authorities into that town like a tidal wave, and everyone who was christian, would be rounded up, thrown into prison, and Joe would likely be killed....
I read a book a few years ago which talks about some serious "impossibilities" taking place.
https://www.amazon.com/Insanity-Obedience-Walking-Jesus-Places-ebook/dp/B07DV3JDXD/ref=sr_1_3?crid=255C4YV2VL8C3&dchild=1&keywords=nik+ripken&qid=1600977847&s=digital-text&sprefix=nik+r,digital-text,224&sr=1-3
in the book a pastor of a church in the former Soviet Russia said we don't talk much about it because we see the impossible, or should expect the possible all the time.
So, perhaps you're literally just not in the right place when such things happen.
Hmm.....
I have a question for you....
This is what Jesus said.Can a true-blue certified Christian pray, and receive a desired/requested result, if/when performing petitionary and/or intercessory prayer for restoration the of an amputated limb(s), removal of cerebral palsy, or of Down's syndrome? If not, why not?
..... If the above request(s) cannot be demonstrated, (regarding such intercessory or petitionary prayer requests), then us doubters will just go continuing thinking such claims/stories, as written 2K+years ago in the Bible, are just that --- Stories .....
So.... my question doesn't merit answering?
in doing this it makes me wonder why I should bother answering yours.
This is what Jesus said.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
Then, John in his first letter states
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
So, the answer does indeed appear to be yes. With caveats.
1- we need to be asking something according to God's Will.
2- we are to be bearing fruit.
Then I'd say you'd do well to go insinuate yourself into an environment, which will afford you the opportunities to see God at work. Just don't go turning us into the police.
Your doubts are not our problem. We provide you with the gospel, it's entirely up to you what you do with it.
If all you want are magic tricks, then you're in the wrong place with wrong motives, and those are exposed by your failure to turn to Jesus.
Now, let's try this again.... I asked a real question. Are you going to answer it or not?
Well, I'm adding you to the question now too because you came into the discussion.The question you asked of @InterestedAtheist was directed to him. I'll let him answer accordingly. Thank you for addressing [my] question to youAnd when you ask me question(s) directly, I'll try and answer accordingly; as below, and beyond, where applicable.
Fyi, I use the bible to provide a basis for my statements.FYI, I've read the Bible. But thanks for the quotes, all-the-same.... Moving forward...
I stated the caveats quite plainly.(Spoiler alert) - Let me guess, His caveats include response to petitionary and intercessory prayer requests to cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome?
Sounds like you have a lot of preconceived notions and biased opinions.If it is according to His will, then the prayer is worthless, as He was already going to provide such a request, whether one asks or not. And if He does grant your request, outside of His predestined will, then this goes directly against God's will. Either way, you are now in a pickle...
John 15, and 1 John 5 were both quite clear.This falls back to my original question --- which remains unanswered???
"Can a true-blue certified Christian pray, (such as yourself, for example) receive the desired/requested result, if/when performing petitionary and/or intercessory prayer for the restoration of an amputated limb(s), removal of cerebral palsy, or of Down's syndrome? If not, why not?"
You make it sound like God owes you something beyond what he stated he does.??
I would see God's work, by watching a true faith healer, a person whom performs intercessory prayer, or someone whom perform petitionary prayer, restore someone's limb, reverse someone's cerebral palsy, or of Down's syndrome. Is this possible?
I likely did the same thing you did. Which is, I read it. The point in demarcation, is that you believe what it says, where-as, I do not. And I'm laying down the gauntlet right now. If someone can pray for someone with a missing limb, someone with CP, or with Downs, I would then reconsider my current position accordingly.
Come to Jesus and engage him on his terms and find out for yourself.Can this be done? If not, why not?
Read John 15, and 1 John 5 again. Pay attention.I have no motives, quite frankly.
I'll ask you AGAINI trust [you] are a true-blue believer. Is God going to EVER answer your prayer requests to 'heal' an amputee, someone with CP, or with Downs? If not, why not?
What question is that?
I would so love it if you would answer the question.I never suggested not praying, since we are to pray without ceasing. The Bible is full of things to pray for like: wisdom, boldness, strength to do God’s will, knowledge to know what to say, allowing the Spirit more control, encouragement, softer hearts, peace of mind during troubling times and others.
Some Christians are praying for the wrong things, like Paul asking for his thorn in the flesh to be removed, so God is helping them by not providing these “things” for them and “God’s will” is understood to be part of all Christian prays.
Suppose I prayed over Ruth Bader Ginsburg coffin, with cameras running and blood returned to her veins and she hopped out of her coffin, ready to go back to work. That is not the way I see Christ’s established method of taking the gospel to the entire world and I see this miracle creating huge problems hurting the spread of the gospel.
Simple answer: I'm not a Christian at all.Hmm.....
I have a question for you....
What if you're simply not in the crew of Jesus followers who are praying for the impossible, and where the impossible is taking place, it's so dangerous--- say China--- to say anything about it beyond those whose lives are so impacted?
OKI would so love it if you would answer the question.
The question is:
Why is it that Christians who do pray to God for things; who do ask God for things and believe it is right to do so; who do believe that God does, at least sometimes answer prayers, and that some of their prayers have been answered before...
Why do these Christians only ever pray for things that are completely possible and may very well happen anyway?
Now, if your answer to this question is, "I'm sorry, that doesn't reflect my own beliefs and I am unable to comment on why other Christians would do such a thing," then that's fine.
If your answer is that, although you do not share those precise beliefs you still have some ideas about why they would pray like this and would like to share them, even better.
At this point, I'm kinda starting to wonder if you know the answer, and don't like it, and so you don't want to address the question.
Well, I'm adding you to the question now too because you came into the discussion.
Fyi, I use the bible to provide a basis for my statements.
So, expect me to include them.
I stated the caveats quite plainly.
Sounds like you have a lot of preconceived notions and biased opinions.
Are you willing to recognize that you're simply wrong?
John 15, and 1 John 5 were both quite clear.
The answer is yes.
Those who believe in Jesus receive whatever they ask for.
You make it sound like God owes you something beyond what he stated he does.
I encourage you to pay attention to what you say you're reading. Because God made it clear what he will and won't do.
It's a pity you chose to not believe him.
As such, God has fulfilled his duty to you. Everything from that point forward is pure kindness and mercy. Aka, love.
If you refuse to follow Jesus, when you die, you know what you're walking into.
Answered prayer is to those who believe God.
I don't think that's the simple answer at all.Simple answer: I'm not a Christian at all.
This makes no sense at all.....Now, would you mind answering my question? You'll find it, stated (not for the first time in this thread) in post # 135, just above this..................................
I would so love it if you would answer the question.
The question is:
Why is it that Christians who do pray to God for things; who do ask God for things and believe it is right to do so; who do believe that God does, at least sometimes answer prayers, and that some of their prayers have been answered before...
I don't know.Why do these Christians only ever pray for things that are completely possible and may very well happen anyway?
I think that's the case for everything.Now, if your answer to this question is, "I'm sorry, that doesn't reflect my own beliefs and I am unable to comment on why other Christians would do such a thing," then that's fine.
HAving some ideas, while interesting is speculatory at best, and it's been made pretty clear by the atheists here that they don't like being speculated about.If your answer is that, although you do not share those precise beliefs you still have some ideas about why they would pray like this and would like to share them, even better.
At this point, I'm kinda starting to wonder if you know the answer, and don't like it, and so you don't want to address the question.
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