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Well, this is just what I have been saying. Christian stories are full of Christians praying to God for the impossible, and God granting these prayers.Miguel Juan Pellicer was born in the early 17th century to a Catholic family in the small agricultural community of Calanda, Spain. In 1637 when he was 20 years old, he was working on his uncle’s farm when a terrible accident occurred: he was riding a mule pulling a cart and accidentally fell off, and the cart ran over his right leg, breaking his tibia (also known as one’s shin – ouch!).
He received some treatment at a local hospital but soon decided to go to a special hospital in the city of Zaragoza dedicated to Our Lady of the Pillar. He, like many Catholics in Spain, had a strong devotion to her, and he hoped to benefit from her intercession.
Unfortunately, by the time he arrived, his leg was so gangrenous that it was black. The only option left was amputation. Two expert surgeons removed most of the lower half of his right leg from just below his knee. They cauterized the wound with fire.
Now, keep in mind that this was the mid-17th century, so there was no anesthesia. They gave him alcohol and other drugs to try to numb the pain, but Pellicer nonetheless experienced incredible pain. One witness later wrote: “In his torment the young man called upon the Virgin of the Pillar, unceasingly and with great fervor.” They then buried his amputated leg in the hospital’s cemetery, as was the custom.
A few months later, he was released with a wooden leg and crutch. Apparently, he was also able to get some sort of license for begging (I didn’t know that kind of thing even existed) at the Sanctuary of the Pillar. He was able to survive from begging and, since it’s a popular pilgrimage destination, was seen by thousands if not millions of people. He also got regular checkups with his doctor at the hospital.
But he didn’t lose hope that God still might heal his leg, as impossible as it seemed. In an act of faith, every night he would request some oil from the sanctuary, rub it on his stub, and pray for the intercession of Our Lady.
After about two years, with the health of his leg seemingly stable, he finally decided to return home. He arrived in the midst of the 2nd week of Lent (sometime around March 11-14) in 1640. Unable to help on the farm, he took up begging again, and many people in the surrounding towns saw his stub leg.
Then, about two weeks later on March 29th, the miracle happened.
It was around 10 p.m. and he was ready to go bed. A soldier was temporarily staying in his family’s home and was sleeping in his bed, so Pellicer plopped down in an extra bed in his parent’s room instead. About an hour later, his mother walked in and saw two feet sticking out of the covers. Thinking the soldier had gone to sleep in the wrong room, she called her husband to resolve the misunderstanding.
But when her husband came and lifted the blanket, he was shocked at what he found: it was their son, and he had both of his legs!
A painting of Pellicer’s parents finding him asleep with his leg restored. Artist unknown.
They tried to wake him up right away, but he was in a deep sleep and it took a while. Once they finally were able to shake him awake, he explained that he had been having a vivid dream in which he was at the Sanctuary of the Pillar and was rubbing his stub with the oil as he used to do.
The three of them rejoiced, praised God, and thanked the Lady of the Pillar for her intercession!
News of the miracle spread like wildfire in the surrounding towns, and both government and ecclesiastical officials came to their house to see his healed leg for themselves. Three weeks later, Pellicer and his parents made a pilgrimage to the Sanctuary of the Pillar to give thanks, and many people there who had known him with his stub leg were amazed to see him with both legs.
The story became such a sensation that the local archbishop conducted an extensive investigation of the miracle. When they dug up the box that he been buried with his amputated leg in the hospitals’ cemetery, it was apparently undisturbed – but empty. Regarding eye-witness testimony, there were obviously thousands of people who had clearly seen his stub leg before the miracle. So investigators asked two dozen of the most respected witnesses to testify in the court proceedings, including doctors who had treated him. No doubters of the miracle could be found.
A year later, the archbishop finally issued a judgement: the miracle was authentic.
So why don't you?Where did I do this? We are little Christs, meant to emulate Christ in all things - including prayer.
I cannot help it if you went to some trouble to answer a question I wasn't asking.As I said, Christians do pray for things, and rightly so. I went into some trouble explaining the nature of prayer, and why we pray for some things and not necessarily for others. As far as I am concerned, your queries have been answered. You are intent on ignoring it, and keep asking in spite thereof. Prayer is not a form of magic. Why don't Christians treat it as such, because it isn't. It doesn't seem as if you are trying to understand prayer at all here, so I bid you good day
Perhaps you don't know much about your fellow Christians. Did you look at the Prayer wall? It's full of people praying for things. God, please give me this, or help me with that.I nowhere said people couldn't so petition. They can, but they mostly wouldn't, as it would not fall within the function of prayer within a life of Faith.
Do you remember the story I posted about the dead child earlier in this thread? Where the whole church enlisted people in praying that the little girl would return to life? That story was remarkable because of how rare it was.It is not as if people have not prayed such things before. I am sure every parent with a lifeless child has done so.
The objective of our time in this world is not to make it a heaven on earth.Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.
They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?
Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?
Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.
Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.
Very confusing.
I nowhere said people couldn't so petition. They can, but they mostly wouldn't, as it would not fall within the function of prayer within a life of Faith. Such things are absurd in that they presuppose the meaninglessness of what is to be restored, instead of how such things are usually framed within the broader purpose or Will of God.
It would be akin to if my son asked me to help him build a dinosaur, but I change it into a spaceship, or I tell him to clean up but then proceed to tip out all the toys onto the floor. The request is absurd within the context of the purpose of the act.
It is not as if people have not prayed such things before. I am sure every parent with a lifeless child has done so. That prayer is answered in God's way, in framing that child's life within broader meaning. After all, Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus; but then, Jesus Himself died on the cross, while mocked that He save himself, or as was said elsewhere, Physician Heal Thyself.
Mt 18 (ESV) says:Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.
They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?
Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?
Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.
Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.
Very confusing.
Yeah? Which context is that? The entirety of Matthew 18, as I understand it, is a discourse about leadership of a community of believers and the authority of the apostles in that community. This section in particular is about the reconciliation of brothers in Christ and the authority of the church leadership, including the "binding and loosing" phrase that is key to a lot of differences and debate in doctrine regarding said church authority. Even the last two verses, if assumed to be only loosely related to the preceding text, seem to be about the efficacy of public prayer even in small groups, because it is done in and through Christ.Mt 18 (ESV) says:
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
I guess no two or three Christians have ever agreed to ask for cancer to be eradicated. (I bet they have). The standard apologetic is that it must be in Gods will. The problem with that is it is not what the bible says in context.
Yeah? Which context is that? The entirety of Matthew 18, as I understand it, is a discourse about leadership of a community of believers and the authority of the apostles in that community. This section in particular is about the reconciliation of brothers in Christ and the authority of the church leadership, including the "binding and loosing" phrase that is key to a lot of differences and debate in doctrine regarding said church authority. Even the last two verses, if assumed to be only loosely related to the preceding text, seem to be about the efficacy of public prayer even in small groups, because it is done in and through Christ.
The Greek direct translation of verse 19 is:So, given all that, what context are you seeing here that suggests that the verses above mean that God will go ahead and do whatever two Christians agree to ask for, just because they asked for it? What is it about Matthew 18 as a whole, or this section specifically, that tells you that that's what is meant here?
Please, enlighten us.
No, but it means that the verse is incorrect. If God is the ultimate arbiter of what He will do, even restricted to church discipline, then the verse is wrong. God will not do anything they ask regarding church discipline. It is useless at that point.The key part you're either missing or ignoring in those last lines, though, is the "in my name" part. This suggests a certain deference to and alignment with the mind and intentions of Christ. This means that treating prayer like a magical ceremony, as discussed by other posters here, isn't going to work just because people say "Jesus". You can dismiss this out of hand as "the standard apologetic" if you want to, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
I think I did in 105 post.I wonder.
Why is it that Christians never pray for impossible things?
I thank people for talking to me, but it doesn't seem like any of them given an actual response to the question.
Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.
They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?
Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?
Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.
Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.
Very confusing.
James Randi is one of my favorite authors.
Perhaps you did. Sorry, I'll have to check that.I think I did in 105 post.
Okay, then. That sounds like an interesting argument. Can I just check I understand you fully?God is providing you with the easiest possible way to become humbled and it is something the lowliest mature adult earth can do and that is in humbly accepting the existence of a benevolent Creator. So, God is not going to take that opportunity away from you by proofing His existence prior to humbly accepting His charity.
You got most of it, but one big difference: “It is not that ‘God prefers’, but I and other humans need to have this very simple easy method of expressing a very little faith to help with our humility.”Perhaps you did. Sorry, I'll have to check that.
Okay, then. That sounds like an interesting argument. Can I just check I understand you fully?
Are you saying that God does not want to give any "obviously impossible" or "miraculous" answers to prayers, because such a thing would constitute strong evidence or even proof of His existence, and He prefers that people come to believe in Him through faith rather than by proof? And that Christians know this, and believe that therefore God will not answer prayers for miraculous things?
And therefore, that is why Christians do not pray to God for the impossible?
Is that your answer?
You don't know what I pray for, or how I pray for it. Don't make these assumptions.Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.
They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?
Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?
Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.
Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.
Very confusing.
Hence the question. Why not answer it?You don't know what I pray for, or how I pray for it. Don't make these assumptions.
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