Why do Christians in the voting booth help billionaires instead of people in poverty?

[Aijalon]

Is that why the Christian vote in Massachusetts got pro-choice Scott Brown elected?

Most pro-life conservative Christians are willing to vote pro-choice if the Republican politician is pro-choice.

I suppose I may have used the term "conservative" out of place. Perhaps I should have said "fundamentalist Christian" ? Or simply, Christian.

But of course you can see that I was baited into framing this in the classic conservative vs liberal meme.

I shall reestablish my point.
>>>> True Christians vote with their moral conscience, and this does not include taxation issues.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I suppose I may have used the term "conservative" out of place. Perhaps I should have said "fundamentalist Christian" ? Or simply, Christian.

But of course you can see that I was baited into framing this in the classic conservative vs liberal meme.

I shall reestablish my point.
>>>> True Christians vote with their moral conscience, and this does not include taxation issues.

So, help the least among us and enforce the constitution are not moral conscience issues?

 

[Jay NotApplicable]

True Christians vote with their moral conscience, and this does not include taxation issues.

I don't know how you define "true Christians." But those that identify as Christian usually vote with taxation in mind. If you happen not to fall into this category then I'm not talking about you. But most people who identify as pro-life Christians vote for the Republican candidate, whether or not he is pro-life. Those Christians that vote with taxation in mind, and that is most of them, usually support the billionaires instead of those in poverty. As has already been shown on this thread, they come up with various excuses such as the idea that we should not bring economic harm to billionaires.

I can understand the idea of capitalism. I was a capitalist too a long time ago. But then I read the New Testament. I cannot now understand how any true Christian could read the new testament and still want to help billionaires get richer at the expense of the poor.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I don't know how you define "true Christians." But those that identify as Christian usually vote with taxation in mind. If you happen not to fall into this category then I'm not talking about you. But most people who identify as pro-life Christians vote for the Republican candidate, whether or not he is pro-life. Those Christians that vote with taxation in mind, and that is most of them, usually support the billionaires instead of those in poverty. As has already been shown on this thread, they come up with various excuses such as the idea that we should not bring economic harm to billionaires.

I can understand the idea of capitalism. I was a capitalist too a long time ago. But then I read the New Testament. I cannot now understand how any true Christian could read the new testament and still want to help billionaires get richer at the expense of the poor.

You see brother, it all goes back to that man who was saved on the cross. Some of us are so jealous of that man that we'd just as soon see him starved to death for his sins before ever having the opportunity to carry his cross to Calvary.

 

[John S]

LostFarmer - Did Jesus ever own or use a weapon? If He did, then I missed it.
I'm NOT talking about politics.

Fearless - I'm NOT talking about politics.

Albion - Since Jesus NEVER owned a weapon - or advocated it's use - we shouldn't own or use one either - or should we?
YOU missed the point when you said that Jesus was apolitical. As I said before, I am NOT using the terms conservative nor liberal in a political manner.

Yarddog - The VAST majority of Jesus' words and examples ARE liberal -and so should His followers be IF they want to consider themselves Christian.

 

[Bethesda]

Because neoliberal capitalism is as American as apple pie. If you are rich it is because you worked harder than anyone else, and if you are poor it is because your lazy fault. Government is evil, and should be as limited as possible. Equality is a utopian pipe dream which will only lead to dirty communism.



Or so the story is told.

I am interested in seeing that its someone in America making that point as I thought it was only us in socialist Europe who took the pov that somehow helping those less fortunate was not solely the preserve of charities but also a duty of the state.

 

[Bethesda]

I certainly am not a conservative but we can also make the same statement about "political" liberals. Jesus would never endorse abortion. Jesus would never endorse people living together outside of wedlock, regardless of what sex is involved.

Thus, a person can be either liberal or a person can be a Christian. You CANNOT be both.

I am a Moderate. I look at both sides but try to align my convictions with those of the Gospel. There are many times when I have to vote for a person whom I disagree with on issues but I am not a single issue voter. I search to try and understand the agenda and vote for those whom I feel closest meets my beliefs.

I rarely vote Republican, unless they are a moderate Republican. Those are getting to be fewer and fewer, as sadly, the far right wing dominates the GOP.

I do agree that its just a dangerous to start saying you are not a real Christian if you own a weapon, have a job where you carry one etc (and there's all the NT teaching about the role of the authorities etc which i don't read to mean that there should be no Christian cops etc)as to say that you are only one if you.... (long list of various conservative/right wing value statements)
usual example of the extremes coming round to meet up with each other!

 

[Bethesda]

Peacefully agreeing to pay taxes to armed thugs is part of a larger principle mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount: "Resist not evil."
We turn the other cheek when tased, we offer our other cloak when expropriated, we go the extra mile when drafted, but it is still wrong for the government to bully us like that.

Armed thugs! (of course the taxmen in the UK do not carry guns and usually over here if someone gets tasered then in most cases they deserved it)

Actually its interesting how the liberal and conservative pov though is equally dismissive of the poor guy or girl working for the state!

 

[Albion]

I am interested in seeing that its someone in America making that point as I thought it was only us in socialist Europe who took the pov that somehow helping those less fortunate was not solely the preserve of charities but also a duty of the state.

It is the POV of almost every American. The objection usually comes when the extreme Left takes to the keyboard to argue something else--that there is no limit to how much money can by confiscated from anyone so long as the purpose that is claimed is helping the poor. These extremists are motivated primarily by hatred of anyone who has prospered, not by compassion for the poor. They don't contribute to the relief of the poor themselves, of course, because they think they can simply commandeer the resources of someone else. Well, theft is NOT a virtue, and envy IS one of the seven deadly sins.

 

[Yarddog]

I do agree that its just a dangerous to start saying you are not a real Christian if you own a weapon, have a job where you carry one etc (and there's all the NT teaching about the role of the authorities etc which i don't read to mean that there should be no Christian cops etc)as to say that you are only one if you.... (long list of various conservative/right wing value statements)
usual example of the extremes coming round to meet up with each other!

 

[Jay NotApplicable]

Albion, do you think there is nothing morally wrong with being a billionaire?

 

[Yarddog]

Yarddog - The VAST majority of Jesus' words and examples ARE liberal -and so should His followers be IF they want to consider themselves Christian.

The vast majority of his words being socially liberal does not mean that Jesus should be considered liberal in all matters. He was not bound by the thought of the religious or political thinking of his day but in the truth of God's will.

As for guns, having them does not make one conservative. I know of many liberals who own guns. Jesus may have never owned a weapon but the Apostles did.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

Albion, do you think there is nothing morally wrong with being a billionaire?

Explain to me how it is inherently wrong to have money. Then give me a figure of how much money someone can have before it becomes "morally wrong".

Good luck



And before you even start, I suggest you refrain from using the commonly misconceived "love of money is the root of all evil" reference. It clearly states that the love of money is wrong, not ownership.


I believe it is not about how much money you have. It is about what you do with that money.

 

[SharonL]

Jobs do not have labels of Dem or Rep. We all are entitled to a job if we work hard and look for it. The millionaires and billionaires are the ones that provide these jobs. A poor person never paid anyone's salary. The governmhnt owes us nothing and not the ones that create jobs. Sitting back and complaining because some people are rich and we are not is not what the free market is all about. Jobs are created by people who own companies, not by what the government can give us.

 

[Jay NotApplicable]

Explain to me how it is inherently wrong to have money.

Jesus said it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven. That should tell you something.

Then give me a figure of how much money someone can have before it becomes "morally wrong".

Having a dollar is not rich. Having a billion dollars is rich. Where you draw the line between rich and not rich is up to you.

 

[John S]

Yarddog - Since the VAST majority of Jesus' words and examples are liberal, then that makes Him a liberal, even if He had a few conservative beliefs.
Since He is a liberal, then we as Christians, those who TRY to be Christ-like, should also be liberal in our thoughts and deeds.
I have seen your liberal posts - about treating women who get abortions with respect and dignity - about treating homosexuals with respect and dignity - etc.
I NEVER said that it was O.K. for liberals to own guns. It's just that the vast majority of people who have them, and who argue the most vociferously for them, are the conservatives. Let's just say that, in my opinion, Jesus wouldn't want His followers to own or use them - or, at least, I haven't seen any verses that would support that view. There are alot more verses that would say that He would be against their use.
If you are punched in the face, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.
If you are forced to walk a mile, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.
If a person takes your shirt, TV, or money, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.
If you have an enemy, you aren't supposed to shoot him.




Just for the record - OF COURSE the military and law enforcement are going to be forced to use guns - but the rest of us don't need them - unless you can show me where Jesus would want you to use one.

To whom it may concern - Peter, and probably a few other Apostles, carried a sword - So What. I don't pray to Peter. I pray to Jesus Christ - and He NEVER owned or used one.

After the Apostles were given the Gift of Tongues, did they carry swords? - I doubt it.

 

[Yarddog]

Yarddog - Since the VAST majority of Jesus' words and examples are liberal, then that makes Him a liberal, even if He had a few conservative beliefs.

Jesus didn't have liberal and conservative beliefs, he conformed to God's will. Jesus has all of the right opinions. Liberals have many of their beliefs which conform to Jesus' and Conservatives have many beliefs which conform to Jesus and they both have beliefs which are contrary to Jesus.

Jesus was not about liberal or conservative, he was all about doing God's will.

Since He is a liberal, then we as Christians, those who TRY to be Christ-like, should also be liberal in our thoughts and deeds.

Then you would say that today's liberals should reject any form of abortion, birth control, gay rights, equality for women, and such issues.

I have seen your liberal posts - about treating women who get abortions with respect and dignity - about treating homosexuals with respect and dignity - etc.

Yes, because I believe in loving everyone and trying to help those who have fallen into sin to find forgiveness. I do not pass judgment on liberals, conservatives or moderates because we all fall short of God's will.

I NEVER said that it was O.K. for liberals to own guns.

Is it a sin for liberals to own guns and in doing so does that mean that liberals are not Christians?

It's just that the vast majority of people who have them, and who argue the most vociferously for them, are the conservatives. Let's just say that, in my opinion, Jesus wouldn't want His followers to own or use them - or, at least, I haven't seen any verses that would support that view.

I haven't seen any verses which say that owning guns in sinful. There are many uses for guns and a very small percentage of the times which a gun is discharged, is it at another man.

If you are punched in the face, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.

Nope.

If you are forced to walk a mile, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.

Nope.

If a person takes your shirt, TV, or money, you aren't supposed to shoot the offender.

Nope.

If you have an enemy, you aren't supposed to shoot him.

Scripture doesn't necessarily say that. We are supposed to love our enemies but we are also supposed to love the enemies of our enemies and if our enemy tries to kill them how can we be loving if we don't protect the weak.

When the Apostles saved Roman soldiers, they didn't tell them to stop doing their duty to the Empire.

Just for the record - OF COURSE the military and law enforcement are going to be forced to use guns - but the rest of us don't need them - unless you can show me where Jesus would want you to use one.

What is sinful about hunting? Jesus and the disciples ate meat which had been killed. What is sinful about people protecting themselves and their families in dangerous neighborhoods? What is sinful about a person buying a gun as a collectors item or to use in target shooting, such as skeet?

To whom it may concern - Peter, and probably a few other Apostles, carried a sword - So What. I don't pray to Peter. I pray to Jesus Christ - and He NEVER owned or used one.

But Jesus allowed Peter to have a sword and if you follow Jesus, you should allow this as well.

After the Apostles were given the Gift of Tongues, did they carry swords? - I doubt it.

Show scripture which says that they didn't? Did Peter tell Cornelius, the Centurion, to cast away his sword? We don't see this nor do we see him walking away from his post.

 

[Fearless12]

Fearless - I'm NOT talking about politics.

Of course not... You're just discussing topics which are heavily debated in political circles, on a thread about Christians in the voting booth (read: politics), labeling people with terms that are commonly associated with political affiliation (conservative, liberal). Then you're taking those non-political political terms and using them not only to determine for yourself who is a believer and who is not, but to label Christ himself. And just to be clear, these are people you don't know and have prejudged (literally, you've made your own determination of their status with God) based on terms that are loosely defined in our culture and never used that way in the Bible. That is not sensible.

 

[LostFarmer]

Jay - To me, Jesus was endorsing the separation of church and state. Pay your taxes to the government but keep God separate from the government.


"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Please make up your mind. How can you say the above and then turn around and say 'tax the rich to help the poor because it is Jesus will' ?? That sounds a lot like a hypocrite to me.

I say it is NOT the Lord Jesus way to have the government tax to help the needy, it is each individuals job via the Church. Remember who ever you give thanks to receives the glory. In fact the gov. welfare programs cause the receivers of the help to give glory to man, it is a detestable thing. The main reason to help the needy is to teach us to care for all others, the by product is the needy gets help.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]