Why do Christians hate Wicca(Witchcraft)?

[ALW]

I didn't take it as a slam and I hope no one else does.
I just wanted to add my observation/experiance to the mix because it seemed a little less harsh around home. Wondered if it was regional or denominational or individual or something else.

I didn't say what I did as a slam against Christians - just that in general and in my experiance here that's what they believe.

Sorry about that

 

[paul becke]

"...and unless you want to claim that god directly talks to people, it means that no Christian has the right to judge someone to be worthy of death."

Arikay, that is precisely what Christian prayer and indeed the Communion of Saints signifies: Christians pray to God, directly, person to person. Christ would have died for you on Golgotha, if there were no other person in the world apart from you.

As regards the "communion of saints", through our prayers, we are or can be in touch with the canonised saints, as well as the many more unknown saints - such as departed relatives and friends of ours - who will have been welcomed into Heaven by their heavenly Father, or are still being purified "as if by fire" in Purgatory.

That means that, having now already been brought very close to God in his Heavenly Kingdom, they still feel too unworthy to be able to look at Him; but after a period of sorrow - which the ultimate truth that they are now more fully aware of, will inevitably inspire in the Children of Light, if they have not yet been fully purified - they will join all the Children of Light in the Mystical Body of Christ, in the very life of the Holy Trinity, the fulness of God; "to enjoy what no eye has seen, no ear has heard, things beyond the mind of man to conceive." (probably, a rough quotation and not 100% accurate in the wording).

As regards the death penalty, our legal systems are so atrocious that it is a very good thing that it has been abolished in Europe, and is under review in America.

However, unless I've missed some posts to this effect, none of you sem to have realised that the same God who said "You shall not murder", is the God who, in other parts of the Mosaic Law, specifically ordered individuals to be executed for a number of offences.

One such offence, of course, was adultery. However, since the Jewish people at that time constituted a pristine theocracy, which had had ample evidence of God's power and loving concern for them, and had not yet been hideously distorted by the traditions of men, when the Scribes and Pharisees were set on stoning the woman caught in adultery to death, Christ thought otherwise.

And when they had all left, starting with the oldest (who were more aware of their own sinfulness, and when confronted with a man whom they would have feared with very good reason could read their souls and the minutiae of their lives like a book, they weren't game to take him on), Jesus told her to go away and sin no more.

Murder too was punishable by death, yet Moses and David were both guilty of it, David, effectively of adultery, too.

The motive of Moses was utterly selfless and indeed arose from a burning, righteous indignation. We have no indication that he was reproached for it by God; if anything the contrary, since it was he God chose to speak to face to face, and commissioned to promulgate his laws - the so-called Mosaic Laws of the Old Testament.

David's motives alas were terrible. In fact the man he effectively had murdered, in order to steal his wife, Bathsheba, was, incredibly, like the better, more virtuous David, refusing to go in his house to sleep with his wife, preferring to sleep outside his gate, because his men were fighting in the field at the time, and he felt such solidarity with them in their trials. I found it interesting that he was a Hittite. There seemed to be a lot of foreigners in their army. (And in this, they remind me of some of you "Wiccan". I suspect that many of you are you are too innocent to be held guilty by God for rejecting Christianity).

Yet David was mostly such a marvellous man that God went so far as to say that he was a man after his own heart. That in his (God's) eyes, his throne was like the sun, like the moon it would endure for ever". He was a latterly a general, a king, a great prophet, a sublime psalmist who foretold the manner of Christ's crucifixion; while as a shepherd lad, he had fought bears and lions, later killed Goliath and a little later, very successfully led the Israelites into battle, presumably, for the most part a matter of hand-to-hand fighting. Yet he complained of the propensity for endless violence of the sons of his sister, Sarvia. We are also told somewhere that he woke seven times in the night to pray, but I can only imagine that being practicable when he was an old man. It's kind of characteristically noble-seeming too that he didn't sleep with the beautiful young virgin, Absihag the Sunamite, in the sexual sense, as an old man, when she had been selected to sleep with him, to keep him warm.

In his prime, he chose to live as an outlaw for many years, in deference to God's will, rather than kill Saul, "the Lord's Anointed", when he had the opportunities. Even though he had himself been anointed by God to succeeed Saul.

Now, I expect some of you will start wingeing about my getting off topic. Well, never mind. Worse things happen at sea, as they say.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I'm not going to be 'wingeing' about anything
But we should get back on topic

 

[paul becke]

I'm not a fan of Tolkien, personally, Mylinkay, but I like the quote.

 

[ALW]

As regards the "communion of saints", through our prayers, we are or can be in touch with the canonised saints, as well as the many more unknown saints - such as departed relatives and friends of ours - who will have been welcomed into Heaven by their heavenly Father, or are still being purified "as if by fire" in Purgatory. [

Side question – are there any cannonised saints that were not Christian?

David's motives alas were terrible. In fact the man he effectively had murdered, in order to steal his wife, was, incredibly, like the better side of David, as he normally lived, refusing to go in hsi house to sleep with his wife, preferring to sleep outside his gate, because his men were fighting in the field at the time, and he felt such solidarity with them in their trials. I found it interesting that he was a Hittite. There seemed to be a lot of foreigners in their army. (And in this, they remind me of some of you "Wiccan". I suspect that many of you are you are too innocent to be held guilty by God for rejecting Christianity).

Can you elaborate or explain more of what you mean here. Please. (mostly the last 4ish sentences)

………He was a latterly a general, a king, a great prophet, a sublime psalmist ……

What is the difference between prophet and premonition?

 

[Forseti]

Man can love god equally, but if they worship differently they are considered enemies.
"On common ground"

that's how religion can create bariers between people, instead of uniting

it's sad that people sometimes even associate Norse symbolism with the third reich (who unrightfully used Norse symbolism for enslavement and murder, instead of love).

I'm not near to being right-wing, i'm a philosemitic semi-zionist socialist pagan quasi-buddhist pantheist... quite a mouthfull

 

[imasharp]

I will start by saying that I love everyone. I will say that you would have to define what wicca or witch means. I believe that some people call their selves wiccans and just want to love the earth. That in itself is not bad. I love the earth too. I also believe that when you are worshipping something or someone other than God that it is wrong and is a sin. I don't like sin. I can still love the person. I know that peopld that don't believe in God may not understand this, however I know what my Savior has done for me and this is just what I believe from the reading the Bible.
Christy

 

[ALW]

I'm not near to being right-wing, i'm a philosemitic semi-zionist socialist pagan quasi-buddhist pantheist... quite a mouthfull

Um? Can you save me some dictionary time and elaborate.

 

[ALW]

I will start by saying that I love everyone.

Thank you

I will say that you would have to define what wicca or witch means.

There has been some non-consensus about the definition of witch here. You could check out the posts on this thread from yesterday and the day before for my perspective and a link to more perspectives.

I think some of the Wiccans here will give you a good definition of the religion Wicca. There is a wide variety in belief it seems.

I believe that some people call their selves wiccans and just want to love the earth. That in itself is not bad. I love the earth too. I also believe that when you are worshipping something or someone other than God that it is wrong and is a sin. I don't like sin. I can still love the person. I know that people that don't believe in God may not understand this, however I know what my Savior has done for me and this is just what I believe from the reading the Bible.
Christy

I think you put this very honestly and kindly.

 

[Forseti]

ALW, i'll just explain myself

philosemite=someone who admires Jews and their culture and history.
semi-zionist=someone who thinks a Jewish state is just about fundamental
socialist= having left wing fews, supporting equal rights for everyone
quasi-buddhist= almost-buddhist
pagan= speaks for itself

 

[ALW]

Forseti,
Understanding now.

 

[Smilin]

i'm a philosemitic semi-zionist socialist pagan quasi-buddhist pantheist... quite a mouthfull

IS there an icon for that?????
If not...THERE SHOULD BE...

 

[Smilin]

I will say that you would have to define what wicca or witch means.

After their definition, I would ask you for the 'biblical
definition' for comparison. The Bible doesn't define
it does it?

I believe that some people call their selves wiccans and just want to love the earth. That in itself is not bad. I love the earth too. I also believe that when you are worshipping something or someone other than God that it is wrong and is a sin.

First, I'm not Wiccan. However, I can help with this one.
Some of us find spirituality in the Earth and all of
the Creation. That would include the Creator, would
it not? Secondly, some of us do not subscribe to
the Christian doctrine of 'sin'. We believe we will
be judged and rewarded appropriately according
to our legacy.

I don't like sin. I can still love the person. I know that peopld that don't believe in God may not understand this, however I know what my Savior has done for me and this is just what I believe from the reading the Bible.
Christy

I don't believe in 'sin'. I believe I am solely responsible
for my life, my actions, and my deeds. I no longer
look to the Bible for inspiration or spirituality, I look
to Nature and those around me for my spirituality.
I know you won't understand, since many truths
displayed in nature are blind to many.

~Smilin

 

[LastMaxim]

Warning: Very long post!!
(let's see if we can find some scriptural answers to some of the questions floating around this post lately...)

...that's how religion can create bariers between people, instead of uniting ...

Luk 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
Luk 12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

This speaks of those who believe, and those who do not...Jesus knew it would happen before hand, but also that it would be necessary, should there be any saved from 'spiritual death'--separation for God...He knew not all would believe, and certainly not all who did believe in Him, would believe in Him alone...

Luk 13:28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Mat 13:37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness(sin),
Mat 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
Joh 8:46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
Joh 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

It's a matter of belief in Christ, and not intension of good deeds, that is the separater here. Without belief in Christ, and a willingness to follow, and love Him with all your heart, you are not following the God of the Bible. Anything which is not done through Jesus, is not of God. Good works, in and of themselves, don't cut it...

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Joh 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Joh 6:30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
Joh 6:31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"
Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
Joh 6:33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
Joh 6:34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Joh 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Joh 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[Forseti]

I don't believe in 'sin'. I believe I am solely responsible
for my life, my actions, and my deeds. I no longer
look to the Bible for inspiration or spirituality, I look
to Nature and those around me for my spirituality.
I know you won't understand, since many truths
displayed in nature are blind to many.

well said

btw, Smilin', what path of nature have you chosen?

well, like i repeatedly intone; i'm a follower of the ancient Norse path, and my nickname, Forseti, is the name of the Norse deity of righteousness and justice

 

[paul becke]

Side question – are there any canonised saints that were not Christian?

"Can you elaborate or explain more of what you mean here. Please. (mostly the last 4ish sentences)"

What is the difference between prophet and premonition?

Well, AWL, "canonisation" in the Roman Catholic context is merely a formal process whereby the Church states, on the basis of research into their lives, that certain people were saints and would have gone straight to Heaven, without need for further purification in Purgatory.

In fact, the Church would be the first to say that there would be innumerable saints belonging to all Christian churches, and surely other religions too. (I have read anecdotes concerning Indian holy men of the most extraordinary ascetical lives you could imagine, and have absolutely no reason to doubt their veracity).
In the Christian churches, it would be a matter of adoption by the Holy Spirit, through baptism (seemingly, also through the baptism of others in some cases), into the Mystical Body of Christ, and thereby into the very life of the Holy Trinity. Obviously, this divine life within us through baptism is embryonic and develops throughout our life and spiritual development.

Just as Christ's moment of supreme glory was when he suffered and gave his life on the cross, our divine nature as this "new creation" is not normally expressed through Superman-type worldy heroics, whether kryptonite-strengthened or not, but by our love and the capacity we show for it through our acceptance of suffering for Christ's sake, the sake of Christ in his own person and in the person of his adoptive brothers and sisters.

Well, AWL, I mean that, because of the distortion of the institutional Church's witness down the centuries, chiefly as a result of its political alliance with the richest and most powerful "movers and shakers" of this world (as much through silence as through a preferential fraternisation with them at the highest ecclesial levels), many people have been scandalised and turned away from Christianity to find solace elsewhere.

Fortunately, the Church has done a great deal to repair the damage caused by the "traditions of men", since Vatican II, although obviously it will have to, and I believe will, continue to make more radical changes, in order to put its house in order, and to return more closely to the teachings of the New Testament.

So, I’m not surprised to see on this thread a kind of innocence, the kind of simplicity that the 17th century French Jesuit priest considered the "pearl of great price". That may sound patronising in a way, but not, I believe, if you understand the nature of true intelligence – which owes little or nothing to worldly intelligence and everything to the spiritual wisdom of the heart, which discerns the true spiritual priorities, usually not even on what we would ordinarily consider a conscious level. I saw a TV documentary the other day that indicated that this superior kind of intelligence is becoming recognised and researched by some neuroscientists.

I believe Solzhenitzin also alluded to this extraordinary wisdom in one of his books, when he marvelled at how this friend of his, who I believe was a caretaker, always seemed to make the right decision, throughout a whole series of extremely perplexing situations. "Don’t fret about what to say. The Holy spirit will tell you..". Also, surely, what to do. The Holy Spirit coordinates the strands of our intelligence.

Prophecy may involve premonition or forewarning, either "religious" and for the edification of the Church as a whole, or simply personal and what we would normally call "psychic"; but it has a wider meaning in the Christian tradition, namely, being a vessel, medium, vehicle, etc., of truth. The Israelites were sometimes referred to by God as "his prophets". Because the Judaism, which they preserved, was to become the bedrock from which Christianity was to develop, and their race, the human stock from which Christ was to derive his human nature.

I hope those answers are helpful, AWL. Sorry again, Mylinkay! And other impatient souls.

 

[ananar23]

I luv the Wiccans....but i try to love everyone.

 

[ALW]

(I have read anecdotes concerning Indian holy men of the most extraordinary ascetical lives you could imagine, and have absolutely no reason to doubt their veracity).

I would love to read some of these. Could you PM me a source?

Well, AWL, I mean that, because of the distortion of the institutional Church's witness down the centuries, chiefly as a result of its political alliance with the richest and most powerful "movers and shakers" of this world (as much through silence as through a preferential fraternisation with them at the highest ecclesial levels), many people have been scandalised and turned away from Christianity to find solace elsewhere.

Even from my perspective I can see that. I have visited very welcoming Churches and also very cold ones. I can easily see how some of the most devout Christians could be turn away from thier own religion in some cases.

........if you understand the nature of true intelligence – which owes little or nothing to worldly intelligence and everything to the spiritual wisdom of the heart, which discerns the true spiritual priorities, usually not even on what we would ordinarily consider a conscious level.

Signifigant concept. I do wonder what would be considered spiritual priorities.

 

[Forseti]

i have a question; did the good Samaritan go to heaven? he wasn't a Christian but did good deeds, out of the entire bible that is the story that has inspired me most, even though i'm not christian! my goal is to be a good samaritan; just help everyone, regardless of religion, race, sexual preferences...

 

[SquareC]

i have a question; did the good Samaritan go to heaven? he wasn't a Christian but did good deeds, out of the entire bible that is the story that has inspired me most, even though i'm not christian! my goal is to be a good samaritan; just help everyone, regardless of religion, race, sexual preferences...

Good question, I had wondered that myself!