Why do Christians entertain atheists?

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

Yes, I understand your point.

But you can see that this just does not work.

Of course you can try to "correct" a person who you think is wrong. And perhaps you will even manage to convince him of your point.
But in as many - or even more - cases you will be confronted with a person who thinks that you are wrong, and he has the really Christian precept, and he has tested the spirits and everything and God told him that he is right... fullstop!

But would you agree that there is one true answer to a given Christian precept? By this, I mean that the original author's interpretation of a given scripture.

That is why you have all these Christian denominations and sects, who more or less agree or more or less disagree. It is not a handfull of "true Christians" holding out and a majority of "professed non-true seduced by the world" Christians. It is a huge number of groups who are at least in parts of the membership completely convinced that they have it right.

Again, and if we define "having it right" as being correct in understanding the original interpretation of scripture in comparison to other precepts in the Bible, would you agree that there is one right answer?

Sure there are and were "worldly" Christians ... how used the mantle of religion to further their political or economical goals. Just as there are Muslim or Hindu who are this way.

Just as there are atheist movements which seek to do the same. Their mantle? "Science"

But in the same way there are those who are completely convinced and able to defend their view with whatever backup you want to call up. Convinced that they have the right version of their faith, and that everyone who disagrees is EVIL!

You mustn't allow name-calling, condemnation, and personal character attacks to affect you so. This type of Christian (or any religious person's) behavior is not something the Bible endorses.

Western secular society has spend a few centuries to spread the idea that "those who do not want to be ruled by me... bring them before me and slay them" might not be the best way to live. Some parts of the world have yet to come to embrace this notion.

This is a parable you're referencing about a certain nobleman. Would you like me to try to explain the real concept behind the verse?

But this idea is deep-set in the context of a divinely revealed absolute truth.

And for an outsider, this is very hard to accept.

Question: why are you an outsider to begin with...?

 

[Nithavela]

Everytime I hear that, I think of someone who has lost his keys. And keeps seeking.

The unbeliever seeks everywhere, and when he doesn't find his keys in a place, he disregards it.

All the while the believer tells him: "They in are in your other jacket! If you just keep looking in your other jacket, you will find your keys!"

The atheist answers that with "What other jacket? I don't even have another jacket! What are you talking about?"

This. This is brilliant. Came up with that yourself?

 

[Davian]

Kind of hard to find something when it's somewhere you refuse to look.

The nature of atheism is to completely disregard the inevitability of the intelligent design of the cosmos, right down to the atoms themselves.

The evidence of God, as the Bible states, is PLAIN.

Is that the old 'invisible but plainly seen' line? Is it like Wonder Woman's invisible jet?

That is, all you have to do is look around. You, what you are doing, where you are at and what's going on- it did not come from nothing. It's just a very basic, fundamental fact that needs no evidence.

So all this evidence is for something that needs no evidence.

It is why science laughably fails to come up with anything else.

Now, how did you settle on your particular deity? Maybe it was some other god.

 

[LilLamb219]

Everytime I hear that, I think of someone who has lost his keys. And keeps seeking.

The unbeliever seeks everywhere, and when he doesn't find his keys in a place, he disregards it.

All the while the believer tells him: "They in are in your other jacket! If you just keep looking in your other jacket, you will find your keys!"

The atheist answers that with "What other jacket? I don't even have another jacket! What are you talking about?"

It's the jacket given to you as a gift that you tossed aside because you thought you didn't need it.

 

[Davian]

I'm mighty impressed by Saint Aquina's proper definition of 'atheist' being, literally, 'invinicibly ignorant'.

Contrast that with my definition of 'theist', being, literally, "believes in things imaginary". That does have appeal to parsimony, as it would explain why the theist cannot establish the veracity of their claims, and it excuses the atheist for not believing in unevidenced claims.

The idea that atheists are are simply ~dopes~ has been around for many, many centuries

That certainly does line up with what I wrote in post #274.

 

[lt11]

What I "hear" when I read this is: "keep seeking, and then you'll see that I'm right". It comes across as arrogant. Here is a mirror for you: Keep seeking, lt11, and then you just might see that I am the one who is right after all, and that is where we head off into the field of philosophy. Try to look at this from my perspective. I have absolutely no idea how to convert you to atheism, but I do benevolently wish that you will become an enlightened atheist one day. I don't normally go around telling Christians that, because I think it is rude to say something like that to someone, no matter how kind the intent. eudaimonia, Mark

I sincerely don't want you to think I am being arrogant I can only tell you what I know as truth and then the rest is your choice their is not much more that I can cover with non believers because if you don't even accept the basics you will never accept the rest. All I can do is tell you that we all have sinned against God that sin seperates us from God Jesus died on the cross so that the price would be paid for anyone who chooses to follow him. In the end everyone who has ever lived will be raised for the decision of who chose to live forever with God and who choose to live forever without him. I only say that this will be the only thing in the end that matters and if you don't sincerely with your heart search for the Lotd you have made your choice. Whether your like it or not that is the way it will happen and you can say to God that the Bible wasn't sufficient evidence that historians saying jesus lived and died as the bible said wasn't sufficient evidence and that other things such as the beautiful balance that makes us see an intellectual design in creation as not enough evidence the words of Jesus explaining how love real sacrifical love and forgiveness for others of the world that don't even deserve it would change the world especially if we all loved each other that way as not enough evidence but in the end that excuse will not be accepted by God

 

[Freodin]

But would you agree that there is one true answer to a given Christian precept? By this, I mean that the original author's interpretation of a given scripture.

Yes and no. I agree that there is "the original author's interpretation" or intention.
But various authors can have various intentions and interpretations - even a single author is not necessarity always consistent.

And he is not necessarily "true".

From a Christian perspective - even if they agree that this is a human authors statement in question - it has always to be, in some way "correct".

For example, the often used words of Paul in the letter to the Romans - already hinted at in this thread: the existence of God is obvious, atheists are without excuse, they only deny for their own base reasons.

When a Christian cites these verses, he sees them as true. God IS obvious. Atheists ARE without excuse. Case closed. It says so in scripture! That means it is true.

In my view, Paul wasn't any different from the wannabe apologets today: There is no need to show anything, I make the claim and there can be no contradiction. Contradiction means you are evil!

Again, and if we define "having it right" as being correct in understanding the original interpretation of scripture in comparison to other precepts in the Bible, would you agree that there is one right answer?

Following my last paragraph: no, there isn't "one right answer". The Bible is not one monolithic text without flaws or internal differences. With a certain mindset, you can interprete (almost) anything into it... especially when you use "comparison to other precepts".

Just as there are atheist movements which seek to do the same. Their mantle? "Science"

Whole atheist movements? Well, considering my quote you based that on, this is rather far fetched.

But even if you were correct here: so what? Does that change the fact that "false" Christians can be sincere, or that atheists can?

You mustn't allow name-calling, condemnation, and personal character attacks to affect you so. This type of Christian (or any religious person's) behavior is not something the Bible endorses.

Except when you start to quote Jesus or Solomon or...
See... already you have found some disagreements with other Christians.

This is a parable you're referencing about a certain nobleman. Would you like me to try to explain the real concept behind the verse?

No. Never ask an atheist to interprete the Bible for you. Whatever I will tell you, some other Christian will contradict it.

[edit: sorry, I misread what you wrote. It's late. But my point here remainst almost the same: regardless of what YOU tell me it means... some other Christian will contradict it.]

Question: why are you an outsider to begin with...?

Because I do not believe in what you (all) claim.

 

[Freodin]

It's the jacket given to you as a gift that you tossed aside because you thought you didn't need it.

If you know so well what jacket that is, even if I am rather sure that I never owned such a jacket... then perhaps you can show it to me?

No?

 

[Tinker Grey]

There is no jacket (nor spoon, either).

 

[Davian]

I sincerely don't want you to think I am being arrogant I can only tell you what I know as truth and then the rest is your choice their is not much more that I can cover with non believers because if you don't even accept the basics you will never accept the rest. All I can do is tell you that we all have sinned against God that sin seperates us from God Jesus died on the cross so that the price would be paid for anyone who chooses to follow him. In the end everyone who has ever lived will be raised for the decision of who chose to live forever with God and who choose to live forever without him. I only say that this will be the only thing in the end that matters and if you don't sincerely with your heart search for the Lotd you have made your choice. Whether your like it or not that is the way it will happen and you can say to God that the Bible wasn't sufficient evidence that historians saying jesus lived and died as the bible said wasn't sufficient evidence and that other things such as the beautiful balance that makes us see an intellectual design in creation as not enough evidence the words of Jesus explaining how love real sacrifical love and forgiveness for others of the world that don't even deserve it would change the world especially if we all loved each other that way as not enough evidence but in the end that excuse will not be accepted by God

At least you made the effort to put spaces between your words.

 

[Davian]

What are you even talking about?

You ramble, a lot.

Join the club.

You were the one going on about how "real" Christians are so persecuted, as if it were of significance. Is it?

 

[Freodin]

There is no jacket (nor spoon, either).

At some point, my analogy (like all analogies) breaks down.

I am looking for my keys, because I am missing my keys. The analogue part in Christianity would be "the hole in your heart that only Jesus can fill".

If we were to go back on that in my example, the believer would constantly tell you: "The key is in the other jacket"... and the atheist would ask: "What key?"

 

[lt11]

At least you made the effort to put spaces between your words.

I really hope my lack of English skills doesn't make it hard for you to understand what I am trying to say. I apologise I really am not very good at written English

 

[Davian]

I really hope my lack of English skills doesn't make it hard for you to understand what I am trying to say. I apologise I really am not very good at written English

Your English is quite good, and I think I understood what you were trying to say, but some paragraphs and spacing would make it easier on the eyes and brains of us old folks.

 

[lt11]

Your English is quite good, and I think I understood what you were trying to say, but some paragraphs and spacing would make it easier on the eyes and brains of us old folks.

Thankyou I really should have paid more attention at school I regret that now

 

[JGG]

I just feel the need to point out what I've just experienced here: About ten pages ago I asked a series of questions (five of them), on a single claim made by another poster. The response was something like "All I can tell you is Jesus paves the way to our relationship with God." Now, not only does this statement hold no meaning with me, but seems suspiciously like the original statement I was questioning just worded differently. I actually doubt that it holds meaning with the poster who stated it beyond at the emotional level. I don't think they understand what they've said, but if feels good to say it.

For me, all it does is bring up more questions, which I won't bother to ask as my initial set of questions which brought about that answer were never addressed. So, now I am left with even more questions borne out of a single statement of faith. Just one. None will be answered, or even directly addressed.

Here's the catch: I asked those questions because clearly I don't understand. Often, Christians make statements which are emotionally based, that are very broad and may get kudos from people who believe (because emotionally it resonates with them as it is supposed to), but for the rest of us we just say "wait that doesn't make sense." If I don't understand it I can not believe, that's just how things work for me.

However, because these questions loom about (and there are many, many more), the Christians about have labelled me prideful and evil. God, apparently, will condemn me to hell for all eternity, because His representatives (you guys) make statements which bring about questions they are unable, or unwilling to answer. Perhaps you don't understand my questions. Perhaps you don't understand how to answer. Is that how God works?

Now it has been stated here that the reason I do not believe in your God is because I am evil, wicked, inferior, prideful, deficient, or whatever. I contend that I do not believe because I have asked questions that you seem unable to answer, and that makes it really tough to believe in your claims. Perhaps I am an atheist because I will ask questions that you will not.

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

Yes and no. I agree that there is "the original author's interpretation" or intention.
But various authors can have various intentions and interpretations - even a single author is not necessarity always consistent.

And he is not necessarily "true".

From a Christian perspective - even if they agree that this is a human authors statement in question - it has always to be, in some way "correct".

Okay. More good points. How about if I approach it this way:
Bearing in mind the following:
1. The Bible is an ancient document,
2. Written by many different types of people from powerful kings down to impoverished shepherds.
3. The etymology and definitions of words used in the language in which these scrolls were written...

...how do you define an author's consistency to be correct or incorrect? Personally, I would seek to study the original language rather than simply pass something off as "inconsistent". Can you just open a book of Shakespeare's works and make complete sense of the language? And that's just one guy! How about advanced calculus? Are there inconsistencies in any of those textbooks? Beats me...I certainly wouldn't have the hubris to claim that there are; I just don't understand it enough.

For example, the often used words of Paul in the letter to the Romans - already hinted at in this thread: the existence of God is obvious, atheists are without excuse, they only deny for their own base reasons.

When a Christian cites these verses, he sees them as true. God IS obvious. Atheists ARE without excuse. Case closed. It says so in scripture! That means it is true.

Well, what else are we going to think? Yes, Christians believe stuff that atheists don't. This is nothing new. Scripture certainly can't be expected to condone atheism, can it...?

In my view, Paul wasn't any different from the wannabe apologets today: There is no need to show anything, I make the claim and there can be no contradiction. Contradiction means you are evil!

Oh, and Christians are never evil, nor do they ever contradict scripture? *cough-WestboroBaptistChurch-cough*

Sir, everyone is evil...but not everyone is spiritual. And why do you take issue with the term "evil" anyway? What do you think people are accusing you of, specifically? What "brand" of evil, if that's clearer?

With a certain mindset, you can interprete (almost) anything into it... especially when you use "comparison to other precepts".

Absolutely 100% correct. That is why the Bible gives details on how to understand it with the correct mindset, which is the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Whole atheist movements? Well, considering my quote you based that on, this is rather far fetched.

New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But even if you were correct here: so what? Does that change the fact that "false" Christians can be sincere, or that atheists can?

Nope. But it is a type of secular indoctrination with an agenda.

Except when you start to quote Jesus or Solomon or...
See... already you have found some disagreements with other Christians.

Maybe those other Christians have forgotten Matthew 7:1...

Because I do not believe in what you (all) claim.

Well, why don't you believe it? You can't say "because I don't accept it", that's circular reasoning...

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for review

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

Staff have decided to leave this thread closed since it is a General Apologetics topic and such topics are not allowed on this site.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Tishri1]

Keeping closed and deleted as it is full of rule violations