Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Serving Zion]

I'm confused. The point of my analogy was that being great in other ways doesn't make the man any less a murderer, the point being that saying God is loving and just etc doesn't change the discussion of the specific instance in Thessalonians where God deliberately mislead people.

Please keep in mind that people are misled by the lack of self-restraint, of their own dishonesty and unrighteousness (James 1:14), and that the opportunity for this deception does not originate with God (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). In fact, it does not say that all will not be of the sort to break free from the delusion, and St. Paul goes on to describe in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, that his audience are of the type who will obtain glory in Christ Jesus.

As for your reading of Thessalonians you seem to be saying that there are believing Christians that God doesn't want to get salvation so he deludes them, that they would be live a lie and be condemned.
Is that correct?

I think you have basically confirmed that you didn't misread me, but keep in mind too 2 Peter 3:9, and that your translation might have misled you a wee bit. These ones might not necessarily be condemned. The direct translation says "in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness". (2 Thessalonians 2:12 Interlinear: that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.).

You may also gain by considering these verses as they correlate: Matthew 7:13, Luke 13:24, 2 Peter 2:2, Matthew 21:48-51, Deuteronomy 5:11.

 

[Athée]

Please keep in mind that people are misled by the lack of self-restraint, of their own dishonesty and unrighteousness (James 1:14), and that the opportunity for this deception does not originate with God (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). In fact, it does not say that all will not be of the sort to break free from the delusion, and St. Paul goes on to describe in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, that his audience are of the type who will obtain glory in Christ Jesus.

I think you have basically confirmed that you didn't misread me, but keep in mind too 2 Peter 3:9, and that your translation might have misled you a wee bit. These ones might not necessarily be condemned. The direct translation says "in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness". (2 Thessalonians 2:12 Interlinear: that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.).

You may also gain by considering these verses as they correlate: Matthew 7:13, Luke 13:24, 2 Peter 2:2, Matthew 21:48-51, Deuteronomy 5:11.

So the opportunity for the deception doesn't come from God but he is in fact the one who deceives them for the purpose of excluding them from salvation.
Is that right?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

You didn't seem to to respond to my analogy about the murderer.

Sorry about that...doing this the hard way, so be patient:
A: does widening to a general discussion negate the revelations of a narrow and specific act of God. Imagine a human who gives to charities, volunteers, rescues puppies etc but also once murdered a man. Does the fact that in the wider context this is a great person change the fact that they are also a murder?
T:
The heart of a murderer can be changed in coming to Christ, also King David, a man after God's own heart says the Scriptures, committed murder and was surely forgiven. Aside from Christ one can do no good thing, it is our faith in Jesus which credits us with righteousness, right (Romans 4:9):
John 15:5:
I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
These are very important Truths. Though we are sinners, we are declared righteous through our faith and that faith if fed and fanned into flame will bear fruit. If one is an unbeliever the fruit is not acceptable in God's eyes for we have the sinful nature when standing alone whereas in Christ we are imputed Christ's holiness.

A:
II Thessalonians 2:9-12, (NIV 1984):
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in all sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Those people who will receive a powerful delusion are refusing the Gospel...they refuse to love the Truth and so be saved. Remember, God knows the heart of a man. You really must not attempt to charge God with wrongdoing or poor judgement or as lacking in holiness and righteousness. There are those people who stubbornly refuse Jesus and love wickedness.

A: So here are my questions about this.
1) Why does God send the strong delusion, what specific reason does the passage give?
2) Why did God need to act by deluding them, what would have happened if he hadn't.
3) It seems based on your analysis that you agree that God does in fact deceive people. Is that the case?

T.
1) we only know He sends the delusion "because" they fail to love the Truth and so be saved. Scripture gives us nothing else. I would assume it is a warning against refusing Christ.
2) Again, we are not told. For my own guess, as punishment. Perhaps such people are refusing Christ amidst all kinds of help to the contrary.
3)No, not in the classical sense of deceiving...He sends them His Son and holds out His hand to them all day long, oft times He gives them many blessings in the earthly realm and very importantly He gives them His Word (also called Truth) to determine right from wrong, what is a devil's delusion, what is Truth. He gives them all the tools to prevent a delusion.

A: (Regarding the Romans passages)
A: I am not sure you can get all that from this passage alone but that's no big problem. The issue for me is how we identify this group of people. So my questions are.
1) What specific truth is being suppressed?
2) Do all humans supress this specific truth?
3) If no to 2, what subset do and what subset don't?

T:
1)The Truth. The Word of God is referred to as Truth.
John17:17:
Sanctify them by Thy Truth; Thy Word is Truth.
2)To some extent we all do suppress what can be known about God via our sin. However, the true believe is troubled by his sin and will want to avoid sin in order to please God and others and this too is visible to the world and speaks of God rather than a willfulness to sin as the wicked.

A:
A: I don't see how this explains psalm 4. Is Psalms there is no indication that God deluded people, rather they did it to themselves and so can come back to belief. In Thessalonians they don't do it themselves, God specifically deludes them. Thus to say, as you did, that God deludes them so that they will eventually see the truth seems counterintuitive to me.

Maybe though this is another possible answer to the thread topic. God could lead all believers to truth but deliberately chooses to delude some of the them?

T:
In Psalm 4 we don't rightly know where the delusion came from, but apart from God, you are in a delusion because you are living in Satan's lie...no accountability, sin, sin, sin, enjoy yourself. This is because such people have either chosen to discard the Word or Truth to live it up so to speak or have never allowed the Word to enter into their hearts and minds.
Yes, this does seem a different situation or delusion than Thessalonians, but I like to think that if God waits patiently for them to come out of their delusions (Psalm 4) that those in Thessalonians likewise may have that opportunity. I do see that the Thessalonians passage reads...so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

But I know God was very patient with me as well as punitive and I was happy to learn how merciful He is...do not try His patience, for...
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ---Hebrews 10:31

No, the true believers live by the Truth/the Word so as to escape the delusion!

 

[Serving Zion]

So the opportunity for the deception doesn't come from God but he is in fact the one who deceives them for the purpose of excluding them from salvation.
Is that right?

Hi Athée, I am still waiting on The Lord to show me how best to reply to this, so I am grateful that you are patient until the words are produced.

Meanwhile I would like to share with you the message in today's daily devotional, that has been a major aspect of the message that is in my heart toward you, for this question: The Things You Hear and See

 

[Serving Zion]

So the opportunity for the deception doesn't come from God but he is in fact the one who deceives them for the purpose of excluding them from salvation.
Is that right?

Hello Athée. Thank you for waiting for me to collect my thoughts about this. It has been an interesting exercise! So, I should also thank you for the opportunity to learn more about it

I first must say that this is a serious matter - the interpretation of prophecy, to predict as I represent The Supreme God, future events. The knowledge of those things belongs to Him and to whom He chooses to reveal them.

An important point to note of prophecy, is that God has an overall vision, goal and plan; and exactly how that comes to be fulfilled, largely depends on the decisions we make. For this reason, God has given selected information to the prophets, His servants who wrote in The Bible, and they have recorded these events carefully, to ensure that the information would be accurate and fully useful to Him when the time comes for these events to manifest into reality.

Prophecy is encrypted, meaning that anyone who tries to make sense of it without knowing the truthful interpretation (ie, by The Holy Spirit), is guessing - or worse, might be divining an unholy spirit. On the other hand, He is able to speak and give instructions to His servants, when they read the texts with a faith to believe what He is saying to them.

To answer your question, I believe it is wrong to suggest that God has any desire in His heart, to deceive a person for the intention of excluding them from salvation. (Matthew 18:12-17).

It has occurred to me (because I tend to view scriptures according to the perspective I have), that you have probably been viewing this event as the final judgement, where Jesus returns to sort us all to His left and right hand, then prescribe an everlasting destiny of heaven or hell. That's probably the most common, typical and widespread view! Realistically though, there's a few different ways that prophecy can be fulfilled, and ultimately, only The Father knows what will happen in the end (Matthew 24:36).

So what are we to say? Is it impossible to answer your question without knowing for certain the end time events? Well, there is still some prophecy that has a clear meaning and is yet unfulfilled, that can help to form a view of the bigger picture.

Daniel 7:21-22 describes that "The Reign" comes to be in the hands of The Holy Ones, never to pass on to another people. Daniel 7:13-14 shows us (from a Christian perspective), that Jesus' Reign is an Everlasting Reign that will not pass away, and this is the reign referred to in verses 18 and 22, that would "come into the possession of the holy ones forever and ever". When we put this together with the knowledge in 2 Thessalonians 2, (that there was already at work in St. Paul's time, an apostasy that would cause a great falling-away and so forth), this forms a clear picture that The Kingdom of God that is in Jesus' name was quickly hijacked and turned into a reign that was not in the control of holy ones (implied by Daniel 7:18 and Daniel 7:22), and it fits with what Jesus said in Luke 19:14.

When the holy ones come to possess The Reign, we should expect that they will be quite willing to make known the truth and to expose the falsehood of 2 Thessalonians 2:11! So we can expect that in light of the truth, anyone who has believed the falsehood will have to become aware of it. Whatever words they have said that are not of the truth will condemn them, and they will not be able to deny it. They will be ashamed to continue delivering lies in Jesus' name, and this is the judgement. Yet, what happens to them? We know that judgement normally imposes some consequence. Are they also not entitled to repent and to offer their life in service to the truth? Actually, it seems that they probably will have a valid claim against the enemy (the accuser of the brethren), under caveats found in Hebrews 10:26 and Hebrews 6:4-5. Of course, a person's judgement is always going to be for them to settle with God, because it is He who has the power to restore the soul to health.

.. that probably gives enough of the idea, to understand how God's primary interest is salvation and that He isn't deluding people for the purpose of excluding them from salvation. It shows that actually, He wants to make a loud, clear statement once and for all time, to demonstrate indisputably, the authentic truth of Christianity. Also, it is His way to bring low those who had risen up against Him, but in such a way that empowers them to serve Him with their entire being. The purpose of this judgement then, is to destroy the works of the enemy that came to be so prevalent in Christianity, and to establish The Kingdom of God that is in Jesus' name, into the hands of holy ones - by showing the right way to those who have been led astray. The end result is a fortified Kingdom of God, such that evil will never get established within it again.

Now, in case you'd wonder "where is Jesus in this scenario?" - Since He has not yet been said to have returned, He must still be "waiting at God's right hand in heaven, for His enemies to be made His foot stool"! Even though The Christians at that time will have repented, the practising Jews probably haven't yet come to recognise that Jesus is Messiah. There is then yet a few more Messianic prophecies to fulfil in His name, so that they will be able to receive Him with full faith.

YHWH, You shall take pleasure in Your land; You shall turn back the captivity of Jacob. You shall take away the crookedness of your people. You shall cover all their sin. Selah.
Psalms 85:1-2.

 

[Athée]

Hello Athée. Thank you for waiting for me to collect my thoughts about this. It has been an interesting exercise! So, I should also thank you for the opportunity to learn more about it

I first must say that this is a serious matter - the interpretation of prophecy, to predict as I represent The Supreme God, future events. The knowledge of those things belongs to Him and to whom He chooses to reveal them.

An important point to note of prophecy, is that God has an overall vision, goal and plan; and exactly how that comes to be fulfilled, largely depends on the decisions we make. For this reason, God has given selected information to the prophets, His servants who wrote in The Bible, and they have recorded these events carefully, to ensure that the information would be accurate and fully useful to Him when the time comes for these events to manifest into reality.

Prophecy is encrypted, meaning that anyone who tries to make sense of it without knowing the truthful interpretation (ie, by The Holy Spirit), is guessing - or worse, might be divining an unholy spirit. On the other hand, He is able to speak and give instructions to His servants, when they read the texts with a faith to believe what He is saying to them.

To answer your question, I believe it is wrong to suggest that God has any desire in His heart, to deceive a person for the intention of excluding them from salvation. (Matthew 18:12-17).

It has occurred to me (because I tend to view scriptures according to the perspective I have), that you have probably been viewing this event as the final judgement, where Jesus returns to sort us all to His left and right hand, then prescribe an everlasting destiny of heaven or hell. That's probably the most common, typical and widespread view! Realistically though, there's a few different ways that prophecy can be fulfilled, and ultimately, only The Father knows what will happen in the end (Matthew 24:36).

So what are we to say? Is it impossible to answer your question without knowing for certain the end time events? Well, there is still some prophecy that has a clear meaning and is yet unfulfilled, that can help to form a view of the bigger picture.

Daniel 7:21-22 describes that "The Reign" comes to be in the hands of The Holy Ones, never to pass on to another people. Daniel 7:13-14 shows us (from a Christian perspective), that Jesus' Reign is an Everlasting Reign that will not pass away, and this is the reign referred to in verses 18 and 22, that would "come into the possession of the holy ones forever and ever". When we put this together with the knowledge in 2 Thessalonians 2, (that there was already at work in St. Paul's time, an apostasy that would cause a great falling-away and so forth), this forms a clear picture that The Kingdom of God that is in Jesus' name was quickly hijacked and turned into a reign that was not in the control of holy ones (implied by Daniel 7:18 and Daniel 7:22), and it fits with what Jesus said in Luke 19:14.

When the holy ones come to possess The Reign, we should expect that they will be quite willing to make known the truth and to expose the falsehood of 2 Thessalonians 2:11! So we can expect that in light of the truth, anyone who has believed the falsehood will have to become aware of it. Whatever words they have said that are not of the truth will condemn them, and they will not be able to deny it. They will be ashamed to continue delivering lies in Jesus' name, and this is the judgement. Yet, what happens to them? We know that judgement normally imposes some consequence. Are they also not entitled to repent and to offer their life in service to the truth? Actually, it seems that they probably will have a valid claim against the enemy (the accuser of the brethren), under caveats found in Hebrews 10:26 and Hebrews 6:4-5. Of course, a person's judgement is always going to be for them to settle with God, because it is He who has the power to restore the soul to health.

.. that probably gives enough of the idea, to understand how God's primary interest is salvation and that He isn't deluding people for the purpose of excluding them from salvation. It shows that actually, He wants to make a loud, clear statement once and for all time, to demonstrate indisputably, the authentic truth of Christianity. Also, it is His way to bring low those who had risen up against Him, but in such a way that empowers them to serve Him with their entire being. The purpose of this judgement then, is to destroy the works of the enemy that came to be so prevalent in Christianity, and to establish The Kingdom of God that is in Jesus' name, into the hands of holy ones - by showing the right way to those who have been led astray. The end result is a fortified Kingdom of God, such that evil will never get established within it again.

Now, in case you'd wonder "where is Jesus in this scenario?" - Since He has not yet been said to have returned, He must still be "waiting at God's right hand in heaven, for His enemies to be made His foot stool"! Even though The Christians at that time will have repented, the practising Jews probably haven't yet come to recognise that Jesus is Messiah. There is then yet a few more Messianic prophecies to fulfil in His name, so that they will be able to receive Him with full faith.

YHWH, You shall take pleasure in Your land; You shall turn back the captivity of Jacob. You shall take away the crookedness of your people. You shall cover all their sin. Selah.
Psalms 85:1-2.

Seems lile you are going to a lot of effort to avoid the plain reading of the text in Thessalonians which says God sent them a strong delusion SO That they would believe a lie AND be condemned.
On the subject of God deceiving I found for this very brief article.

God’s Strong Delusion

 

[Serving Zion]

Seems lile you are going to a lot of effort to avoid the plain reading of the text in Thessalonians which says God sent them a strong delusion SO That they would believe a lie AND be condemned.

I have a much different reason for going to all that effort. It is not to avoid the plain reading as you have stated here, "so that they will believe a lie and be condemned" (that's a severely misled translation, BTW), but I seek to clarify what is the accurate meaning of the word that you have rendered "condemned".

It is important to not withhold necessary effort on this issue, so that God's character is not misrepresented, because He is eternally sovereign owing to His holy, righteous and just nature. This character of God requires that if someone has been deceived to believe a lie, then a corresponding mercy is owed to them when they are convicted of their error.

Only when a person is convicted and becomes aware that they have truly been in error, then they have the opportunity to become repentant or obstinate. After all, what is a so-called "repentance" if there is not first a conviction? Is it not merely concession to falsehood and a forged treaty, to possess a feigned belief?

An alternative to the delusion, as you might imagine to be better, is to coddle everyone and prevent them from going wrong. That would actually lead to a world in which God needs to continually breach the laws of nature in order to sustain it. Whereas when we learn one very good lesson to put us on the right path so that we will never again diverge from it, then we are able to use our own wisdom in a responsible way, (to sustain life), and the world can flourish according to the laws of nature that He has established.

This is to achieve His original intention (Genesis 1:22, Genesis 1:27-31), to redeem the world from the curse of sin (Genesis 2:16-17, John 1:4, John 15:4).

Thus said YHWH of hosts, "Discern! And call for the mourning women, that they come. And send for the wise women, that they come."
Jeremiah 9:17

On the subject of God deceiving I found for this very brief article.

God’s Strong Delusion

It is actually very good! Make sure to notice this sentence:

"Those who continually choose falsehood will be inextricably caught by it."

.. This makes me think more on John 5:24.

 

[Athée]

I have a much different reason for going to all that effort. It is not to avoid the plain reading as you have stated here, "so that they will believe a lie and be condemned" (that's a severely misled translation, BTW), but I seek to clarify what is the accurate meaning of the word that you have rendered "condemned".

It is important to not withhold necessary effort on this issue, so that God's character is not misrepresented, because He is eternally sovereign owing to His holy, righteous and just nature. This character of God requires that if someone has been deceived to believe a lie, then a corresponding mercy is owed to them when they are convicted of their error.

Only when a person is convicted and becomes aware that they have truly been in error, then they have the opportunity to become repentant or obstinate. After all, what is a so-called "repentance" if there is not first a conviction? Is it not merely concession to falsehood and a forged treaty, to possess a feigned belief?

An alternative to the delusion, as you might imagine to be better, is to coddle everyone and prevent them from going wrong. That would actually lead to a world in which God needs to continually breach the laws of nature in order to sustain it. Whereas when we learn one very good lesson to put us on the right path so that we will never again diverge from it, then we are able to use our own wisdom in a responsible way, (to sustain life), and the world can flourish according to the laws of nature that He has established.

This is to achieve His original intention (Genesis 1:22, Genesis 1:27-31), to redeem the world from the curse of sin (Genesis 2:16-17, John 1:4, John 15:4).

Thus said YHWH of hosts, "Discern! And call for the mourning women, that they come. And send for the wise women, that they come."
Jeremiah 9:17

It is actually very good! Make sure to notice this sentence:

"Those who continually choose falsehood will be inextricably caught by it."

.. This makes me think more on John 5:24.

Again you seem to be misreading the text here.
The one line you quoted out of context omitted the very point of the entire paragraph in which it was found. Here it is:

The terrifying reality is that God will seal the fate of those who hate the gospel by sending upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. Though, as noted above, Antichrist will deceive people with satanically empowered false miracles, signs, and wonders, his deception only will succeed because it fits into God’s sovereign purpose. He will sentence unbelievers to accept evil as if it were good and lies as if they were the truth. Those who continually choose falsehood will be inextricably caught by it. In the words of Proverbs 5:22, “His own iniquities will capture the wicked, and he will be held with the cords of his sin.” They will be abandoned by God to the consequences of their choice to reject the gospel.

So we can see that the author actually is arguing that God will specifically act in such a way as to prevent some from believing. This was the point of the paragraph but also of the entire article.

If as the Bible verses cited in the article are true then you worship a God who decieves people to prevent them from saving belief. That being the case how can you be confident that what you believe a out God is true?

 

[Serving Zion]

Again you seem to be misreading the text here.
The one line you quoted out of context omitted the very point of the entire paragraph in which it was found. Here it is:

The terrifying reality is that God will seal the fate of those who hate the gospel by sending upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. Though, as noted above, Antichrist will deceive people with satanically empowered false miracles, signs, and wonders, his deception only will succeed because it fits into God’s sovereign purpose. He will sentence unbelievers to accept evil as if it were good and lies as if they were the truth. Those who continually choose falsehood will be inextricably caught by it. In the words of Proverbs 5:22, “His own iniquities will capture the wicked, and he will be held with the cords of his sin.” They will be abandoned by God to the consequences of their choice to reject the gospel.

So we can see that the author actually is arguing that God will specifically act in such a way as to prevent some from believing. This was the point of the paragraph but also of the entire article.

Hmmm, I do see your concerns are greatly exacerbated by the phrase "seal the fate of", and that the rest of the article does not suggest any sort of hope for those who end up in the judgement. So at this opportunity, I offer Isaiah 59 for that purpose.

About you and me, we are expressing differences in our perception of who God is, what is His heart like, what are His desires, and the decisions He makes. Although I know God's nature much clearer these days, to understand and respect His holiness, I do remember a time when I had been misled to imagine His character as being quite different. So I have a very sincere and deep sympathy for those who have likewise ended up being so far from Him, yet who are the ones that belong with Him.

An interesting thing I noticed in this article, is that St. Paul never used the term "Antichrist", and this author has taken the expression from St. John's writing to directly correspond to "the lawless one" in this passage. It's a good reminder to make sure that you and I are not viewing the same scriptures in different hermeneutical contexts. For instance, I suspect that your context probably incorporates ideas inspired by scriptures in the book of Revelation where mine might not. Of course, we can always introduce text if we think it needs to be verified.

The expression "antichrist" (BibleGateway - : antichrist), does not refer to one single, distinctive person in the context of an end-times apocalyptic war. Rather, it is used to describe a spiritual entity in the singular, and when used in the plural sense, it describes the ones who are deceived by it. My point has been that some of those ones will continue to believe and say that they are following Christ although being of the antichrist and unknowingly heading toward judgement!

.. Look at these important facts: soon after Jesus' disciples began the truthful Christian movement with power of The Holy Spirit, this antichrist spirit began to work amongst people who were attracted to Christianity but who would not hold fast to the truth, because they delighted in unrighteousness.

Both St. Paul and St. John state that the lawlessness/antichrist was already at work in their time, luring away from truth and into falsehood, those who were perishing. St. Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3, that false teachers were coming among them with destructive heresies. St. Jude also says that wicked ones had slipped in, and were perverting the grace of God for indecency.

St. Paul writes that this would culminate in a great falling away or apostasy, and that The Day of YHWH would bring judgement upon those who had believed in falsehood.

At the very centre of this discussion, we are judging God's character upon two key questions:

- What is the outcome of the judgement?
- What is the falsehood?

We need to establish the right knowledge of these things, otherwise, we have to question our purpose for talking about it.

The falsehood is any corrupted variant of the gospel. The antichrist is an imposter spirit claiming to be Christ, but is really the devil (John 8:44, 1 John 3:10). The antichrists are false prophets and false teachers who choose to believe and propagate the falsehoods, becoming and promoting lawlessness.

To illustrate this, I might draw a cliche: picture a devil and an angel on the believer's shoulder.

"He who knows the good he should do and does not do it, to him it is sin".

When someone who has learned that The Sabbath is for holy reverence, yet they have many things that they would rather do around the house and only that one day to spare, then they are tempted to think "oh no, Sabbath is an Old Testament thing. In Christianity, every day is a Sabbath - so I am free now to treat it just like any other day". Think about it. How could this idea first have been spoken into the world? It can't have come from authentic Christianity, because that was a Zionist movement of Judaism.

Such a person became a lawless one not because they chose to disregard the law of keeping The Sabbath, but because they have chosen to delight in unrighteousness - in their heart, they ultimately wanted to do the very thing(s) that they knew they should not do instead of loving the opportunity to glorify and honour God. I am sure with what you know of all the temptations in the world today, a lot of other examples are coming to mind as examples of how Christians are choosing falsehood rather than truth, and corrupting the gospel to make it fit.

The result is, that once a person refuses to repent, they have displaced the role that The Holy Spirit had in their life, and instead there is sin in the place where God should be. They still want to believe that they have The Holy Spirit and all the promises of salvation, so by choosing to have a false assurance, they remain convinced of it.

Now, we have a rather different situation these days than they had in those days. These days, finding the authentic gospel is a bit like getting through a maze - we live amongst the remnants of 2,000 years worth of false doctrines.

For this reason, God sends a strong delusion so that we should believe the falsehood, > to receive judgement < for having not loved the truth but delighted in unrighteousness.

Now just think about that situation. If you were one of these who has suddenly realised they had been misled, not of their own accord but by preexisting false doctrines - they have believed a lie and through preaching the antichrist agenda, have been delighting in unrighteousness; - wouldn't they implore to God for mercy because they had not been taught to know the truth, and they, not knowing better before, have now resolved to do the right thing? What sort of justice would dismiss that plea? Surely not a holy justice, of a loving God who desires none to perish but all to come to repentance. (This is to assume that His supreme wisdom goes without saying).

I did already show some examples, that when someone is made aware of his error and stands accused before God (judgement), they might have a valid claim for mercy in a given caveat of the law .. And, if God's law is too complex for any person, then we have an advocate in heaven, an everlasting high priest of righteousness: The Lord Jesus Christ who has already laid down His life to demonstrate His love for us.

When we maintain a repentant lifestyle to abide in Him, then He abides in us and we can be faithful representatives of Him to those who have not yet come to know Him. This really is the central covenant of Christianity - a bilateral substitution of life. He has purchased us by volunteering His life to false and undeserved charges, while we offer our life in service to Him (1 Corinthians 6:20).

.. Before someone should get the idea that it's all salvation with no possible consequence, there is a grave warning about knowingly choosing to do wickedness in the name of Jesus:

If we continue to sin wilfully after knowing the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful expectation of judgement and a fiery indignation that consumes the opposers. Consider, if a person was sentenced to death on account of two or three witnesses under the covenant of Moses, how much greater the punishment shall be reckoned to the one who has trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, regarding it as a common thing and insulting the spirit of grace that has sanctified him? Indeed, we know Him who says "vengeance is mine and I will repay". It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Hebrews 10:26-31

.. and Jesus Himself has said "do not fear those who are able to destroy only the body, but fear Him who is able to destroy both the body and the soul".

.. But think on the extent of His love for us:

Thus indeed God loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten son, so that anyone believing in Him should not perish, but should possess everlasting life.

If as the Bible verses cited in the article are true then you worship a God who decieves people to prevent them from saving belief.

This is only a valid conclusion if, when they become aware of their error, such a person does not choose to repent and receive salvation. If they are made aware of their error and still choose to not repent, then actually it is not a deception that prevents their salvation, it has then become a conscious decision to reject the truth.

That being the case how can you be confident that what you believe about God is true?

I think this might have become a redundant question, but please be patient and insist if you still think otherwise, and I shall see what other words might help.

 

[Athée]

Hmmm, I do see your concerns are greatly exacerbated by the phrase "seal the fate of", and that the rest of the article does not suggest any sort of hope for those who end up in the judgement. So at this opportunity, I offer Isaiah 59 for that purpose.

About you and me, we are expressing differences in our perception of who God is, what is His heart like, what are His desires, and the decisions He makes. Although I know God's nature much clearer these days, to understand and respect His holiness, I do remember a time when I had been misled to imagine His character as being quite different. So I have a very sincere and deep sympathy for those who have likewise ended up being so far from Him, yet who are the ones that belong with Him.

An interesting thing I noticed in this article, is that St. Paul never used the term "Antichrist", and this author has taken the expression from St. John's writing to directly correspond to "the lawless one" in this passage. It's a good reminder to make sure that you and I are not viewing the same scriptures in different hermeneutical contexts. For instance, I suspect that your context probably incorporates ideas inspired by scriptures in the book of Revelation where mine might not. Of course, we can always introduce text if we think it needs to be verified.

The expression "antichrist" (BibleGateway - : antichrist), does not refer to one single, distinctive person in the context of an end-times apocalyptic war. Rather, it is used to describe a spiritual entity in the singular, and when used in the plural sense, it describes the ones who are deceived by it. My point has been that some of those ones will continue to believe and say that they are following Christ although being of the antichrist and unknowingly heading toward judgement!

.. Look at these important facts: soon after Jesus' disciples began the truthful Christian movement with power of The Holy Spirit, this antichrist spirit began to work amongst people who were attracted to Christianity but who would not hold fast to the truth, because they delighted in unrighteousness.

Both St. Paul and St. John state that the lawlessness/antichrist was already at work in their time, luring away from truth and into falsehood, those who were perishing. St. Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3, that false teachers were coming among them with destructive heresies. St. Jude also says that wicked ones had slipped in, and were perverting the grace of God for indecency.

St. Paul writes that this would culminate in a great falling away or apostasy, and that The Day of YHWH would bring judgement upon those who had believed in falsehood.

At the very centre of this discussion, we are judging God's character upon two key questions:

- What is the outcome of the judgement?
- What is the falsehood?

We need to establish the right knowledge of these things, otherwise, we have to question our purpose for talking about it.

The falsehood is any corrupted variant of the gospel. The antichrist is an imposter spirit claiming to be Christ, but is really the devil (John 8:44, 1 John 3:10). The antichrists are false prophets and false teachers who choose to believe and propagate the falsehoods, becoming and promoting lawlessness.

To illustrate this, I might draw a cliche: picture a devil and an angel on the believer's shoulder.

"He who knows the good he should do and does not do it, to him it is sin".

When someone who has learned that The Sabbath is for holy reverence, yet they have many things that they would rather do around the house and only that one day to spare, then they are tempted to think "oh no, Sabbath is an Old Testament thing. In Christianity, every day is a Sabbath - so I am free now to treat it just like any other day". Think about it. How could this idea first have been spoken into the world? It can't have come from authentic Christianity, because that was a Zionist movement of Judaism.

Such a person became a lawless one not because they chose to disregard the law of keeping The Sabbath, but because they have chosen to delight in unrighteousness - in their heart, they ultimately wanted to do the very thing(s) that they knew they should not do instead of loving the opportunity to glorify and honour God. I am sure with what you know of all the temptations in the world today, a lot of other examples are coming to mind as examples of how Christians are choosing falsehood rather than truth, and corrupting the gospel to make it fit.

The result is, that once a person refuses to repent, they have displaced the role that The Holy Spirit had in their life, and instead there is sin in the place where God should be. They still want to believe that they have The Holy Spirit and all the promises of salvation, so by choosing to have a false assurance, they remain convinced of it.

Now, we have a rather different situation these days than they had in those days. These days, finding the authentic gospel is a bit like getting through a maze - we live amongst the remnants of 2,000 years worth of false doctrines.

For this reason, God sends a strong delusion so that we should believe the falsehood, > to receive judgement < for having not loved the truth but delighted in unrighteousness.

Now just think about that situation. If you were one of these who has suddenly realised they had been misled, not of their own accord but by preexisting false doctrines - they have believed a lie and through preaching the antichrist agenda, have been delighting in unrighteousness; - wouldn't they implore to God for mercy because they had not been taught to know the truth, and they, not knowing better before, have now resolved to do the right thing? What sort of justice would dismiss that plea? Surely not a holy justice, of a loving God who desires none to perish but all to come to repentance. (This is to assume that His supreme wisdom goes without saying).

I did already show some examples, that when someone is made aware of his error and stands accused before God (judgement), they might have a valid claim for mercy in a given caveat of the law .. And, if God's law is too complex for any person, then we have an advocate in heaven, an everlasting high priest of righteousness: The Lord Jesus Christ who has already laid down His life to demonstrate His love for us.

When we maintain a repentant lifestyle to abide in Him, then He abides in us and we can be faithful representatives of Him to those who have not yet come to know Him. This really is the central covenant of Christianity - a bilateral substitution of life. He has purchased us by volunteering His life to false and undeserved charges, while we offer our life in service to Him (1 Corinthians 6:20).

.. Before someone should get the idea that it's all salvation with no possible consequence, there is a grave warning about knowingly choosing to do wickedness in the name of Jesus:

If we continue to sin wilfully after knowing the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful expectation of judgement and a fiery indignation that consumes the opposers. Consider, if a person was sentenced to death on account of two or three witnesses under the covenant of Moses, how much greater the punishment shall be reckoned to the one who has trampled the blood of Christ underfoot, regarding it as a common thing and insulting the spirit of grace that has sanctified him? Indeed, we know Him who says "vengeance is mine and I will repay". It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Hebrews 10:26-31

.. and Jesus Himself has said "do not fear those who are able to destroy only the body, but fear Him who is able to destroy both the body and the soul".

.. But think on the extent of His love for us:

Thus indeed God loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten son, so that anyone believing in Him should not perish, but should possess everlasting life.

This is only a valid conclusion if, when they become aware of their error, such a person does not choose to repent and receive salvation. If they are made aware of their error and still choose to not repent, then actually it is not a deception that prevents their salvation, it has then become a conscious decision to reject the truth.

I think this might have become a redundant question, but please be patient and insist if you still think otherwise, and I shall see what other words might help.

First off I want to thank you for the time and effort that you clearly put into this reply.
The main question I have for you is where you are getting this notion that in all of the scriptures that the article mentioned, we are dealing with people who come to realize their error? The Bible talks about God making sure that people will not understand, that was the whole point of the parables after all. It seems to me that you are trying to hold on to this notion that God wants everyone to be saved and will give each of us a fair opportunity in this regard. The verses cited in that article make a pretty compelling case that this is not what God wants. That God has chosen before the foundation of the world, an elect, a select few to put on the narrow way that leads to life. Trust me, I like your version of God better, I just don't see the scriptural support for it.
Thoughts?

 

[Serving Zion]

First off I want to thank you for the time and effort that you clearly put into this reply.

Well you know I am very grateful too, because you are making a diligent search, asking good questions, and it is causing me to dig deeper into the scriptures to bring out the details that I'd have otherwise just assumed to know

Please do keep in mind, that in this conversation, I am identifying the particular roots of your problem and forming words to target those areas. Whereas the author of this article is seeming to address an audience of believers - that is to say, people who probably have accepted God's nature as being good, holy etc. So he probably has not considered how the sceptic's view might be distorting his intention. Then again, he also doesn't seem to have tied it into the greater prophetic view as we have, of Daniel 7. I suppose if you have concerns about his article, you could contact him with your questions.

The main question I have for you is where you are getting this notion that in all of the scriptures that the article mentioned, we are dealing with people who come to realize their error?

2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about a coming day of YHWH, (that is to talk of the end of the present age - Matthew 21:40). It is well understood by prophetic view that death, misery etc will become a thing of the past (Revelation 21).

Judgement is, by essential nature, the realisation of error. In traditional sense, a defendant is charged with having done wrong, and is required to give answer. The defendant might be innocent, he might be repentant, he might be defiant. When we are discussing this judgement, we are discussing an inextricable conviction of error (because nobody can hide from God, and His holy ones are faithful representatives - Revelation 17:14).

So, because I remember the circumstances by which you were ejected from your church of youth, I do encourage you to keep pursuing with integrity and trust in Him, how you might be useful if He should call you for service. It actually is an admirable quality in your favour, that you did not compromise your beliefs merely to belong!

The Bible talks about God making sure that people will not understand, that was the whole point of the parables after all.

The purpose of the parables is to provide a gracious exit for both parties, where the truthful meaning of the parable was simply too righteous for the one who does not have readiness of heart for repentance. Remember, Jesus said "to him who already has, more will be given. But to him who has not, even what he does have will be taken away".

Do you know, prophecy itself is revealed in the same way? Knowledge builds upon knowledge, just as it is said that scripture interprets scripture. If you do happen to catch a glimpse of this opportunity for deeper knowledge, make every effort to enter by the narrow door. Many people try to win your mind to their way of thinking, whereas God speaks to the heart.

It seems to me that you are trying to hold on to this notion that God wants everyone to be saved and will give each of us a fair opportunity in this regard. The verses cited in that article make a pretty compelling case that this is not what God wants.

I wonder whether you'd read back on what we have discussed already, and be able to recognise the spirit of the antichrist at work toward your beliefs.

From my point of view, it is quite intriguing that you'd even suggest that as a Christian, I might not want to hold on to such a notion ~ What sort of Christian would stoop to concede that God is unfair and that He doesn't want some people to be saved? What is their motive?

That God has chosen before the foundation of the world, an elect, a select few to put on the narrow way that leads to life.

I think you might be right to say this, about the present age, but wrong to assume that it will never change. The way I see it, what we are discussing is the redemption of The kingdom of God so that the devil has no more place in it. When The Holy Ones come to be in control of The Kingdom, do you think that they will impose a doctrine to say that every person should be Christian? That really would not be a holy edict. Rather, their attitude will be as in Jeremiah 15:19. Those who are called to Christianity will find exactly what they are seeking, and those who have no interest in Christianity will suffer no sin from Christians, because the Christians will be holy (1 Peter 4:17).

Trust me, I like your version of God better, I just don't see the scriptural support for it.
Thoughts?

You might consider Ezekiel 18:19-32.

 

[Athée]

Well you know I am very grateful too, because you are making a diligent search, asking good questions, and it is causing me to dig deeper into the scriptures to bring out the details that I'd have otherwise just assumed to know

Please do keep in mind, that in this conversation, I am identifying the particular roots of your problem and forming words to target those areas. Whereas the author of this article is seeming to address an audience of believers - that is to say, people who probably have accepted God's nature as being good, holy etc. So he probably has not considered how the sceptic's view might be distorting his intention. Then again, he also doesn't seem to have tied it into the greater prophetic view as we have, of Daniel 7. I suppose if you have concerns about his article, you could contact him with your questions.

2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about a coming day of YHWH, (that is to talk of the end of the present age - Matthew 21:40). It is well understood by prophetic view that death, misery etc will become a thing of the past (Revelation 21).

Judgement is, by essential nature, the realisation of error. In traditional sense, a defendant is charged with having done wrong, and is required to give answer. The defendant might be innocent, he might be repentant, he might be defiant. When we are discussing this judgement, we are discussing an inextricable conviction of error (because nobody can hide from God, and His holy ones are faithful representatives - Revelation 17:14).

So, because I remember the circumstances by which you were ejected from your church of youth, I do encourage you to keep pursuing with integrity and trust in Him, how you might be useful if He should call you for service. It actually is an admirable quality in your favour, that you did not compromise your beliefs merely to belong!

Actually, the purpose of the parables was not to harden people's hearts. Rather, it is to provide a gracious exit for both parties, where the truthful meaning of the parable was simply too righteous for the one who does not have readiness of heart for repentance. Remember, Jesus said "to him who already has, more will be given. But to him who has not, even what he does have will be taken away".

Do you know, prophecy itself is revealed in the same way? Knowledge builds upon knowledge, just as it is said that scripture interprets scripture. If you do happen to catch a glimpse of this opportunity for deeper knowledge, make every effort to enter by the narrow door. Many people try to win your mind to their way of thinking, whereas God speaks to the heart.

I wonder whether you'd read back on what we have discussed already, and be able to recognise the spirit of the antichrist at work toward your beliefs.

From my point of view, it is quite intriguing that you'd even suggest that as a Christian, I might not want to hold on to such a notion ~ What sort of Christian would stoop to concede that God is unfair and that He doesn't want some people to be saved? What is their motive?

I think you might be right to say this, about the present age, but wrong to assume that it will never change. The way I see it, what we are discussing is the redemption of The kingdom of God so that the devil has no more place in it. When The Holy Ones come to be in control of The Kingdom, do you think that they will impose a doctrine to say that every person should be Christian? That really would not be a holy edict. Rather, their attitude will be as in Jeremiah 15:19. Those who are called to Christianity will find exactly what they are seeking, and those who have no interest in Christianity will suffer no sin from Christians, because the Christians will be holy (1 Peter 4:17).

You might consider Ezekiel 18:19-32.

I'm glad the you are enjoying the conversation, me too
I am happy to accept your reading of Thessalonians in the sense that they realized their error, although that still leaves open the question of why he acted specifically to prevent them from acting in a way that would have them avoid being condemned.

As for the parables, I just disagree, here is what Jesus had to say on the issue:
And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
Mark 4:10‭-‬12 ESV
Mark 4:10-12, English Standard Version (ESV) And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the...
Finally as for the spirit of the antichrist at work in my thinking...
I'm not sure how to respond. I don't believe in God or the devil or the antichrist. I do recognize that you have a different view of God than I think the Bible teaches. As a believer I thought that God wanted everyone to be saved but I no longer think the Bible supports that reading. This is not to say that God is unfair, if he exist he can do whatever he wants whether we think it is moral or not. But even in that verse that I cited it is clear that God is hiding the truth from some people so that they won't come to faith and be forgiven?
Thoughts?

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm glad the you are enjoying the conversation, me too
I am happy to accept your reading of Thessalonians in the sense that they realized their error, although that still leaves open the question of why he acted specifically to prevent them from acting in a way that would have them avoid being condemned.

As for the parables, I just disagree, here is what Jesus had to say on the issue:
And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
Mark 4:10‭-‬12 ESV
Mark 4:10-12, English Standard Version (ESV) And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the...
Finally as for the spirit of the antichrist at work in my thinking...
I'm not sure how to respond. I don't believe in God or the devil or the antichrist. I do recognize that you have a different view of God than I think the Bible teaches. As a believer I thought that God wanted everyone to be saved but I no longer think the Bible supports that reading. This is not to say that God is unfair, if he exist he can do whatever he wants whether we think it is moral or not. But even in that verse that I cited it is clear that God is hiding the truth from some people so that they won't come to faith and be forgiven?
Thoughts?

It is interesting to read on from the original quote Jesus gives in Mark 4:10-12, from Isaiah 6. In that chapter, it describes that God sends His messenger to harden the hearts of the people with his words, until the entire land is laid waste, and what remains is a holy seed. So I should thank you for this refinement.

I do notice here too, that a person gradually becomes more resistant to the word of truth as they choose more to disbelieve the word of truth and to believe falsehood. The word of truth has the effect of hardening the hearts of those that do not receive it. As this applies to the judgement of the day of YHWH, indeed there is such a type as those who would be defiant in the judgement, that their fate is sealed to condemnation. What sort of person would go looking for a fig on a thorn bush?

When we speak the words of truth, we ought be careful therefore to not deliberately harden those who would not receive it.

 

[Athée]

It is interesting to read on from the original quote Jesus gives in Mark 4:10-12, from Isaiah 6. In that chapter, it describes that God sends His messenger to harden the hearts of the people with his words, until the entire land is laid waste, and what remains is a holy seed. So I should thank you for this refinement.

I do notice here too, that a person gradually becomes more resistant to the word of truth as they choose more to disbelieve the word of truth and to believe falsehood. The word of truth has the effect of hardening the hearts of those that do not receive it. As this applies to the judgement of the day of YHWH, indeed there is such a type as those who would be defiant in the judgement, that their fate is sealed to condemnation. What sort of person would go looking for a fig on a thorn bush?

When we speak the words of truth, we ought be careful therefore to not deliberately harden those who would not receive it.

I guess you could be live that God was somehow constrained and was unable to create a world where everyone gets saved and he gets the glory he needs/deserves. You could then say God wants everyone saved but regretfully was only able to put a few on the narrow path to salvation. That his perfect plan only allowed some of the children made in his image to inherent eternal life, while everyone else endures in the same state he had planned for the devil (whatever your he'll theology is).
This is internally consistent but I have a hard time finding much to admire about such a god. Maybe he really is doing the best he can but it's not very compelling from my perspective.

 

[Serving Zion]

I guess you could be live that God was somehow constrained and was unable to create a world where everyone gets saved and he gets the glory he needs/deserves. You could then say God wants everyone saved but regretfully was only able to put a few on the narrow path to salvation. That his perfect plan only allowed some of the children made in his image to inherent eternal life, while everyone else endures in the same state he had planned for the devil (whatever your he'll theology is).
This is internally consistent but I have a hard time finding much to admire about such a god. Maybe he really is doing the best he can but it's not very compelling from my perspective.

I'd quite like you to go back through our conversation and see whether there is any crucial piece that I have offered to you that you might have fuller impact after having reached this stage. After that, if you'd still think our conversation isn't complete, I will prefer to meet with you on a video chat, say Skype. It would seem to indicate that written communications are not providing the best service to you.

 

[SkyWriting]

If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

God is really really big.

 

[outlawState]

So the opportunity for the deception doesn't come from God but he is in fact the one who deceives them for the purpose of excluding them from salvation.
Is that right?

No. The delusion is from the devil but it is external to a man. It consists in that which is counterfeit, of the world and not of God, who is the truth. Delusion might be the external trappings of a worldly church, counterfeit signs, counterfeit miracles, reputation amongst men, wealth, drugs, pleasure - all kinds of things that are inherently no part of the gospel.

The wicked fall into the trap, into the delusion, because they love wickedness. If they had loved righteousness then they would not have been deluded. It is the delusion that keeps men from salvation. That is not to say that men should be left in their state of delusion, or that those that delude should not be stopped from deluding. But it is impossible to remove all delusions. The degree of religion in any society will be measured by what it tolerates by way of delusions.

At the end of the day, no man can blame God for his own preferences, or for falling under the spell of delusions that are consequential on his love of falsity.

 

[Athée]

No. The delusion is from the devil but it is external to a man. It consists in that which is counterfeit, of the world and not of God, who is the truth. Delusion might be the external trappings of a worldly church, counterfeit signs, counterfeit miracles, reputation amongst men, wealth, drugs, pleasure - all kinds of things that are inherently no part of the gospel.

The wicked fall into the trap, into the delusion, because they love wickedness. If they had loved righteousness then they would not have been deluded. It is the delusion that keeps men from salvation. That is not to say that men should be left in their state of delusion, or that those that delude should not be stopped from deluding. But it is impossible to remove all delusions. The degree of religion in any society will be measured by what it tolerates by way of delusions.

At the end of the day, no man can blame God for his own preferences, or for falling under the spell of delusions that are consequential on his love of falsity.

This just seems so very peculiar to me. The passage we are discussing specifically says that God acts to send them this delusion and somehow, after a lot of meandering, your reading of it allows you to say that when the Bible clearly says God did something that what it actually means is that, God didn't do this at all, he just allowed them to do it to themselves....
I just don't see how you are reaching the conclusion that the bible is wrong. Is it that elevating God decieves people flies in the face of your understanding of who God is?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This just seems so very peculiar to me. The passage we are discussing specifically says that God acts to send them this delusion and somehow, after a lot of meandering, your reading of it allows you to say that when the Bible clearly says God did something that what it actually means is that, God didn't do this at all, he just allowed them to do it to themselves....
I just don't see how you are reaching the conclusion that the bible is wrong. Is it that elevating God decieves people flies in the face of your understanding of who God is?

I hate to barge in, but I can see we're going to have a load of things to talk about ... at some point, Athée.

 

[outlawState]

This just seems so very peculiar to me. The passage we are discussing specifically says that God acts to send them this delusion and somehow, after a lot of meandering, your reading of it allows you to say that when the Bible clearly says God did something that what it actually means is that, God didn't do this at all, he just allowed them to do it to themselves....
I just don't see how you are reaching the conclusion that the bible is wrong. Is it that elevating God decieves people flies in the face of your understanding of who God is?

Here we have to understand the nature of God. Foreknowledge with God is the same predestination, because God knows the end from the beginning. So where Paul says that God predestined th wicked to be deluded, it also can be read as God allowed it to happen. What is important is to understand how God works to destroy those who persist in loving falsity by the means of delusions. The devil is allowed to "prowl around like a roaring lion looking for someone to destroy." 1 Peter 5;8.

It is the devil who deceives, as per Eve in the garden of Eden. The state of being deluded is the state of being deceived by the devil.