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So are the indivisuals who disagree with stated church position just obviously wrong? Has the church ever changed its mind on something it previously taught as true?For the most of us, the Catholic Church speaks with one voice, the voice of Truth. Yes, individual Catholics can and will disagree about everything and anything. But most of us are seeking to know God better, and to love Him more, and through Him, our neighbors. The Orthodox Churches are doing much the same.
I cannot entirely agree with that. I will admit that although I was raised Roman Catholic, as a non-denominational Christian, I look to Christ as my priest (Hebrews 8:1). But while I do agree with the Pope on many tenets (poverty before greed, the rights of the unborn, the normal human depravity of homosexuality, etc), I do not set my beliefs in reaction to his dictates..., because you all hear what the Catholic Pope has to say, and do just the opposite
That is a really interesting perspective. It seems to me though that in Chess you can have a legitimate debate about what strategy is more effective in a given situation. I would have thought that God's truths are not as subjective as that. Am I mistaken?Well, to some extent, you are correct. I do not believe that it is a case of you being "too sinful". I do believe that it is do to the fact that, like others have said, you need to believe by faith and accept Christ before you will understand.
There are people who are extremely nice people, caring, helpful, serving and abide by the moral standards that would make Abe Lincoln proud. They are not nearly as sinful as some Christians. However they are still "of this world" and, some, may not even believe that God exists. They are not gong to understand the ways of God.
You, a self proclaimed atheist, are trying to understand the ways of a God that you don't believe exists. Or doubt such a truth.
That is like a person who has never played chess trying to understand the moves people are making at a chess tournament.
To do this, you must accept that Chess is the game for you. Start slow and work your way up as you grow in the aspects of the game.
Then and only then will you understand why all the top chess players have conflicting views of the strategies of the game.
They all understand the basics.... "take the king" by moving pieces of different strengths and abilities around the board. Yet they argue over the intricacies.
You are asking these chess players why they argue, yet you have never learned or studied or accepted the game to understand the concepts they are discussing.
Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.
Hi all,
I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.
One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling
Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.
Peace
Are you saying that the reason Christians disagree is because they don't know the Greek translation well enough? Are there no areas of ambiguity in your opinion?Yes. All you have to do is go back to the original Greek of the Septuagint. This was the original Hebrew translated by 70 learned elders some two centuries before Christ. Then, the New Testament was also written in Greek. Don't try looking in a Strong's Concordance to find these things. Seek out a Greek scholar who loves God and ask him if the message was mistaken.
So that being the case, that the holy Spirit can and does reveal knowledge such that even sinful men and women can not be mistaken about the truth of the matter, why do you think he allows so much confusion and division?Yes Athée, He can. His is God. With God, nothing is impossible. So yes, it is possible that the Holy Spirit can (and does) communicate something to a sinful believer in such a way that they can discern the actual truth of the matter.
As a matter of fact, he has done so to every sinner that comes to the Cross of Christ.
That is really interesting, so for you humility or lack of it is the key. Do you think that God could overcome this problem of lack of humility so that everyone could know the truth?The Holy Spirit.
In the case of the disciples, notice that they began their fighting and turned each other into their respective spiritual pariahs after Christ left.
When He was with them, they inherently and outwardly submitted to His authority, so it was Christ who determined who was right between them (believers.)
However, when Christ resurrected to life, He was given authority to give us an "on loan" spirit of truth, wisdom, knowledge, fruits of spirit, and everything else Godly. In other words: He gave us the Comfortor/Holy Spirit in the mean time until He returns. For now, that is what determines who is right between two people, for example.
Remember the verse, "where two or more are gathered I am in the midst of them..."? Christ is in the midst of two true believers when they fellowship together. And, through their faith in that and Christ, and God, and with humility of a child the holy Spirit will guide them. Even if they err, the other will reproof the error in love and with providence.
But, you have to have a mind like a child - open, executing common Godly sense, etc. Between two typical adults, there will likely be too much ego to burrow through before one gets to the humility kernel. But, two or more humble adults would have little to no problem acknowledging the Holy Spirit in wisdom or correction.
Out of breath you say...well good sir, take a seat, catch your breath, have an apple, I seem to have extrasAthée,
Let me help you pick up those apples. I'd hate for them to go to waste.
The extent to which the "misreading" of the Bible can take place will typically, in my estimation, be dependent upon individual Christians themselves. But if we want to break it down to a simpler metric of sorts, I think we'll find that people in general, whether Christian or not, are unaware of literary patterns and intentions when they read much of anything, not just the Bible.
Much of the time, the verses in question which are often misused, and over which debates between Christians ensue, are misunderstood because people harbor the notion that because they have the individual privilege to read the bible for themselves, that by corollary, they should also be able to assume the full legitimacy of their individual understanding, which they also think should be permitted to stand apart from interaction and accountability with other people (or other Christians, as in this case). That's one reason.
A second reason is that Christians are sometimes guilty of bandying these notions about within the church, whether locally or at large, because they never question their understanding of Scripture, nor do they see how their overarching interpretive conclusions originated or became constructed. If they were to look at these interpretive conclusions, then many times they might realize that the prized idea, the main notion--such as the Guaranteed Illumination by the Holy Spirit--is really nothing more than an amalgamated misconstrual made from various verses. Underlying all of this is the additionally vague notion that some of the verses associated with the support of the main notion in some way support the main notion, when in fact, those verses don't, specifically.
Let's look at an example of a verse that often gets used to support the supposed universal Illumination of the Holy Spirit for all believers, John 14:26, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
Now, on the face of it, it looks like this verse asserts the advocacy of the Holy Spirit. And that is because it does, on a basic level. But, here's the catch. We have to ask questions as to the full meaning of this verse because straight off, it isn't quite clear as to the nature of the verb and object discussed. Who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples. Which disciples? His immediate disciples. Okay, so far so good. But why would we automatically assume that the context applies also to us the readers? The verse itself doesn't say, "...and apply this to all believers everywhere at all times." And what does Jesus say the Holy Spirit will do? He will teach His (immediate) disciples "all things." What "all things"? Is this to mean all the things Jesus said? Or is this to apply to all the things in the Scriptures of the Old Testament? Or is it all the things that fall from the lips of leaders of the Church? Or is it all the things a person could want to know about spiritual reality from God's point of view, etc., etc.? It's not clear. Moreover, Jesus tells the immediate disciples that He will remind them of everything "I have said to you." Does this mean that the Holy Spirit will reestablish in the disciples' brains every single word ever spoken by Jesus during his earthly ministry, verbatim? Or does it mean that the disciples will be privy to recollecting the basic ideas that Jesus taught so they can live effective Christian lives? Does it mean they should be able to record on paper every word that ever left the lips of Jesus?
If we were to take John 14:26 in a simple, non-contextual fashion, it isn't clear how and to what extent even the immediate disciples of Jesus were to be enabled to recollect the teaching of Jesus, let alone non-immediate disciples living 2,000 years later. Yet, this verse gets man-handled as a promise beyond measure, and it is used by individual Christians to bolster their supposed understanding of the Illumination of the Holy Spirit.
Then, we take the general notions that we create and marry these to other verses, like those in chapters 1 and 2 of 1 Corinthians, where Paul states the general idea that God reveals hidden wisdom to His people, especially connoting a reason why some people don't accept certain spiritual truths, "...These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches..." Okay, hold up! Why would we assume that in this instance Paul is talking about an identical spiritually induced epistemic phenomenon parallel in function to that which Jesus implied in John 14:26? Well...it isn't parallel, although it may be related. The point is, the topics, inferences, implications, and connotations between just John 14:26 and 1 Corinthians are not exactly clear, but Christians often take these and run, asserting along the way that the meaning and application is clear, clear, clear, when it really isn't. And thus, we have Christians who run about too confident that they have clear notions as to the meaning implied regarding the manifestation of Holy Spirit Illumination and then they go on to disagree with each other, and at times almost choke each other over contentions about this, that and the other regarding what they think the Bible "really says."
More could be said, and other verses could be tapped...but I think I've lost my breath at this point.The point being, we still need to do hermeneutical work, even if illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
I'm just talking in general about what I've seen happen when Christians do agree.
So if people can read the Bible as you suggested but still disagree how do they determine who is in fact correct?Unfortunately, yes.
But that won't stop anyone from telling you what they believe to be the truth. Here is a test. Read Matthew 22:35-40. If what someone says answers these two conditions, you can be pretty sure that what they say is true. However, if they pepper their perorations with hate, you know that they may very well be wrong.
Actually this makes a lot of sense to me. If the truth is actually being given to the barest handful we would expect the majority to be disagreeing all over the place. I wonder, since all small groups will thunk that they are of course the group that has it right, how could that small group to whom the holy spirt is actually giving the truth, demonstrate this to the rest of the groups. What do you think?Oops - was it closed due to other posters (maybe me included) transgressing the rules? Oh no.
My attempt at an answer. Possible issues:
1. Not all or perhaps very very very few really understand Jesus and have the Holy Spirit working in them.
2. The Bible is contradictory in nature, and dies not contain a clearly set out, unified teaching. It does contain the truth. Which is extremely, absolutely difficult to extract in purity to most people. Only Jesus can teach (go to line 1).
3. Because of 1 and 2 above, there's been a cohort of middlemen complicating things ever more. By creating dogmas that have nothing to do with Jesus's revelation.
How about that?
No, but hermeneutics can help. Our goal, I think, should be to have humility and remain open to discussing and learning from each other. Then, somewhere buried in the synergy of Christian people bearing good intentions with one another will be the presence of the Holy Spirit, helping us to help each other in coming to better, more functional understandings of His Will.Out of breath you say...well good sir, take a seat, catch your breath, have an apple, I seem to have extras
So it seems like you might belive that there is a truth to the matter in any particular instance but that while the holy Spirit may play some role in guiding the believe towards truth, exactly what role is unclear and requires us in any event to do the hermeneutics. Do you also belive that properly applied hermeneutics would reconcile the beliefs of all Christians on any given topic, are the confluence of such methods and the text of scripture sufficient for all understanding?
I suspect that you are right about that. If millions of you all said the exact same thing I can imagine some people being very upset about thatNow, I don't mean to open up a whole new can of worms here, but my own personal experience has created a need to point this out.
Of course Christians do disagree, but what would happen if we didn't? What if we all interpreted the same passages the same way, and practiced our beliefs identically? Wouldn't we then be called "sheeple" and be accused of not being able to think for ourselves?
This is not aimed at the OP, who has been very respectful and polite. I'm just talking in general about what I've seen happen when Christians do agree.
Are you saying that the reason Christians disagree is because they don't know the Greek translation well enough? Are there no areas of ambiguity in your opinion?
A couple of questions...as alwaysAthee, I think that most of your respondents have missed the key points. Several approaches can be taken to your question. So on this thread I will focus on just 3 of the most relevant biblical texts.
(1) 2 Timothy 2:15: "Do your best (or "study"--KJV) to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."
This text teaches that interpretation of the "word of truth" requires "study" or your best effort at using all the relevant interpretive tools. The required effort is part of what makes the interpreter a "worker" and a lack of due diligence is grounds for "shame." So the expression "correctly handles the word of truth" contrasts with false or arbitrarily lazy interpretive methodology.
There is a reason why denominations send their wannabe pastors to seminary. English biblical translations are not divinely inspired; the original Hebrew and Greek text is. But to understand Bible texts in the original requires knowledge of the cultural and historical background of each text and that knowledge takes study and expertise. Subjective appeal to illumination from the Holy Spirit is no substitute for doing your homework and knowing what you are talking about in biblical interpretation.
(2) Romans 12:1-2: "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is..."
It is not enough to claim guidance from the Holy Spirit for interpreting Scripture. The interpreter needs a "renewed mind," which can be acquired by presenting your body as "a living sacrifice" to God. How this is achieved would take too long to explain. But it is not enough to claim a renewed mind; Christian interpreters must allow their alleged guidance from Scripture to be "tested" before they can claim to know God's will for him. One part of this "testing" is subjecting your alleged insights to wise members of Christ's body and another part is developing the interpretive tools to properly learn and apply the lessons of Scripture to your life.
(3) 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22: "Do not quench (= "extinguish") the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test everything; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."
In other words, we should rely on guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives and our interpretations of revelation, but should not mindlessly accept alleged guidance on the basis of subjective experience alone. rather, all our interpretations need to be tested; and part of that testing involves scholarship and the advice of wiser Christians who are more deeply grounded in Scripture. The Bible teaches us to love God with all our minds as well as our hearts; and loving God with our minds requires critical reflection on Scripture.
That said, one of the Holy Spirit's role is to "convict" the seeker or Bible reader (1 Corinthians 14:24-25; John 16:6) and the Spirit can be expected to convict us of our shortcomings while we read Scripture. In other words, the Spirit is involved with the practical application of Scripture more than with direct illumination about detailed doctrines, quite apart from study.
No, Athee, I am not saying that. What I am trying to say is if all of the people were reading an accurate translation from the original Greek, a lot of the differences would disappear..
So do you think this synergy is happening as we speak, are Christians coming slowly together, drawing close to the actual truth in your view?No, but hermeneutics can help. Our goal, I think, should be to have humility and remain open to discussing and learning from each other. Then, somewhere buried in the synergy of Christian people bearing good intentions with one another will be the presence of the Holy Spirit, helping us to help each other in coming to better, more functional understandings of His Will.
But even with functional understanding given by the Holy Spirit, I think that the overall Epistemic Indices present in the Bible indicate that God isn't willing to share HIS "ALL KNOWLEDGE" with us, nor could we actually assimilate it if we wanted to. Thus, even though He/Holy Spirit gives us insights, i.e. those insights about life, about truth, or about Scripture, these aren't meant to automatically make us Bible Experts. No, in fact, Bible Experts isn't really what God is after anyway. I think He wants a people who show their love for Him by showing their love for each other, as well as for lost people outside the Church who still need Christ.
Anyway, the major mistake is for Christians to assume that just by reading the Bible alone, relying also only on their concept of the Holy Spirit and His work, that God is then going to simply impart the full wisdom they need to "lead others."
2PhiloVoid
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