Why do Charismatics die?

[crystalpc]

Yes they did. They criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath. They accused Him of using satan's power to heal.

True, Potter, they did accuse him of breaking the law, but however, they didn't deny his power to heal. They did say the power was of satan! But they didn't deny he had the power to heal! They never questioned his power, only his methods and timing. We now want to spiritualize it in the opposite. We admit he has power to forgive sins, but question if it is his will to heal the physical condition of his children! Is it easier to tell some poor lost soul their sins are forgiven, or that they are healed? I would say the first, because the second demands a physical manifestation, whereas the first is unseen in the temporal world.

Never once did Jesus stop anyone who came for healing, and say I don't know if I can, it may not be God's will to heal you. The only one he questioned was the gentile woman, who whined after him. He called her a dog, it is not fit to give the children's bread to dogs. This stopped her whining, and in her anger enough faith was released to admit she wasn't a jew, but was begging as a little dog for crumbs from the children's table.

Bread is the least substance that sustains life, nothing fancy just what is due them by a caring Father. Healing is the very bread of the children. It belongs to them.

 

[crystalpc]

I agree, however, what we are talking about is whether or not Jesus has said the words, you are healed to individuals in the physical, temporal body.

Also agreed, resurrected flesh and blood bodies, but who am I to say that death is then not healing? If my reserrected body is perfect then have I not been healed and God has healed me. My question, is not an answer, but just a question. When God chooses to not bring temperal healing, does that mean that healing has not occured?

Again Razzel he said it was the bread of the children. What man among you if his son ask for bread would give him a stone? If ye being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will the father in heaven give to those who ask.
Some of the hebrew words such as salvation, means complete wholeness. If you do a word study. It is very much a physical meaning.
Jesus is the prince of peace. Shalom or peace is nothing missing nothing broken.
I believe it is Gods will to heal all. We see his perfect will in Eden, no sickness no disease. But just as salvation will not be recieved by all neither will healing. I too have wondered about why, I wondered why not my sister, I don't know why, some things I will ask when I get there. I will tell you though the answer will be where I missed it, not where God did.

 

[Jim B]

I personally saw very few of them in me. I'm not bragging it's just I've worked very hard to submit to God so that He could change me and make me the type of person that He wants me to be. If you read much of Diddy's stuff you would see that he does too. . .he's not itentifying with them. . .he's humoring you.

I believe Jesus was compassionate but He never coddled people. If there was something they were doing that was adding to the problem then He corrected them.

Q.

I saw some of them in me. You are probably a nicer person than I am. Really.

As for didy, Why don’t you let Didy speak for himself? I have what I feel is a good relationship with him; I respect him, very much, and listen to him when he has something to say. We don’t always agree with each other but I feel we hear one another. I honestly do not feel that he is two-faced and would simply try to humor me, or anyone, just to humor me. But then, you may know him better than I. However, that is my impression of him.

-----[Edited out]-----

Jim
\o/

 

[razzelflabben]

True, Potter, they did accuse him of breaking the law, but however, they didn't deny his power to heal. They did say the power was of satan! But they didn't deny he had the power to heal! They never questioned his power, only his methods and timing. We now want to spiritualize it in the opposite. We admit he has power to forgive sins, but question if it is his will to heal the physical condition of his children! Is it easier to tell some poor lost soul their sins are forgiven, or that they are healed? I would say the first, because the second demands a physical manifestation, whereas the first is unseen in the temporal world.

Never once did Jesus stop anyone who came for healing, and say I don't know if I can, it may not be God's will to heal you. The only one he questioned was the gentile woman, who whined after him. He called her a dog, it is not fit to give the children's bread to dogs. This stopped her whining, and in her anger enough faith was released to admit she wasn't a jew, but was begging as a little dog for crumbs from the children's table.

Bread is the least substance that sustains life, nothing fancy just what is due them by a caring Father. Healing is the very bread of the children. It belongs to them.

I am not sure that it is easier to say your sins are forgiven. As we have been discussing in previous posts, God is true to His word. If He says, your sins are forgiven, then they are forgiven. Which of us can do that, forgive someones sin? I know I can't, that is left for God. I think His point was, if I can forgive sin, then healing is an easy thing. This is true for the very reason you stated, that forgivness of sin is an eternal while healing of the body is a temperal. Which is easier, which would you have an easier time doing, forgiving someones sins or healing the wound? We have the power to forgive someones transgressions but not thier sin, that requires an offering, Jesus Christ.

There are recorded instances where Jesus healed those who had little or no faith. This being true, how can we say that lack of faith is the cause. I do believe that we need to look for the cause, and do what we can to correct it, but I also beleive that God knows the cause and can reveal that to us without making us feel oppressed. What I must wonder is how often healing does not take place because of the lack of faith or righteousness of the people praying on ones behalf. Again, I have been blessed with good health so the example I am putting forth is in another area but presents a question for this discussion. When I was younger, I vowed to never marry, for marriage would cloud my ability to so wherever God wanted me to go and do whatever God wanted me to do. I was determined to the point that I turned down many wonderful guys, even a marriage perposal. My grandmother however, saw something different and began to pray that I would find a husband. The very first thing I noticed is that her prayer was different, it was if she had a revelation that I was to be married and that was the end of that. I have never seen that same contenence on anyone or about anything in my life since. Anyway, within a matter or a couple of weeks, I met my husband. We started dating on Feb. 14, on April 1 he asked me to marry him. During that time I broke up with him and got back together with him, and found something and someone that only God could have brought me too. By Aug. 15 we were married and 17 years later, 5 kids later, we are still happily married and committed to each other and wherever God might lead. So, then the question is, is the problem with healings, (or lack thereof) in the person needing healing, the people praying for that healing, in God's will and purpose, or something else altogether?

 

[razzelflabben]

Again Razzel he said it was the bread of the children. What man among you if his son ask for bread would give him a stone? If ye being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will the father in heaven give to those who ask.
Some of the hebrew words such as salvation, means complete wholeness. If you do a word study. It is very much a physical meaning.
Jesus is the prince of peace. Shalom or peace is nothing missing nothing broken.
I believe it is Gods will to heal all. We see his perfect will in Eden, no sickness no disease. But just as salvation will not be recieved by all neither will healing. I too have wondered about why, I wondered why not my sister, I don't know why, some things I will ask when I get there. I will tell you though the answer will be where I missed it, not where God did.

The only part of what you are posting that I question is what type of healing is guarenteed. HEaling is always guarenteed but there is the temperal lifetime and the eternal lifetime. When God says, that our healing will always be complete, could this not refer to the resurrected body. I would like to believe that I have a get out of sickness free card, but I find no sound scriptural basis for this belief apart from the eternal healing, which though it is the greater miracle, leaves the temperal in great want. Even in your reference to the bread, we must also read the scripture "man does not live by bread alone" again, bringing us back to an eternal understanding of a temporal existance.

 

[razzelflabben]

thanks Razz.
Please do pray for me that God establish me the truth. I will do the same for you. I count you as a very faithful and loyal servant to God, and praise Him for your stalwartness in following Him even in the times of trouble and pain that you have shared with us. Blessings to you dear heart, and do remember me in your prayers!

I function and always have in pictures, I also often pray in pictures. Last night, as things quieted down and I had time to focus, I prayed for you and every person here who is seeking truth (me included). I recieved a picture that I would like very much to share with you. The picture is of the truth, being like a flaming arrow, aimed right at the heart. The flames melt away all else, tradition, teachings, experiences, etc., leaving behind only truth. This is the prayer I offer to God on your behalf as well as every seeker here. May God pierce your (and mine) hearts with the flaming arrow of truth, that all else might melt away, leaving only truth behind.

 

[riverpastor]

Did anyone mention Smith Wigglesworth?

When he died, he died the specimen of perfect health.

riverpastor

 

[Jim B]

Did anyone mention Smith Wigglesworth?

When he died, he died the specimen of perfect health.

riverpastor

I believe we can live to a ripe old age in good health if we live a life of faith. On the other hand, I knew an old reprobate who died in his 80s who loved to say that the secret of his old age was a pint of Vodka and a good cigar every day. Of course he did it with a cackle just to get under us prudish Christian's skins, but I think he was telling the truth. And he died a specimen of perfect health, too.

Go figure.

\o/

 

[PottersClay]

I believe we can live to a ripe old age in good health if we live a life of faith. On the other hand, I knew an old reprobate who died in his 80s who loved to say that the secret of his old age was a pint of Vodka and a good cigar every day. Of course he did it with a cackle just to get under us prudish Christian's skins, but I think he was telling the truth. And he died a specimen of perfect health, too.

Go figure.

\o/

David had the same question:

Psalm 73:1-28
“Surely God is good to Israel, To those who are pure in heart! But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling, my steps had almost slipped. For I was envious of the arrogant as I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no pains in their death, And their body is fat. They are not in trouble as other men, nor are they plagued like mankind. Therefore pride is their necklace; the garment of violence covers them. Their eye bulges from fatness; the imaginations of their heart run riot. They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; they speak from on high. They have set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue parades through the earth. Therefore his people return to this place, And waters of abundance are drunk by them. They say, "How does God know? And is there knowledge with the Most High?" Behold, these are the wicked; And always at ease, they have increased in wealth. Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure And washed my hands in innocence; for I have been stricken all day long And chastened every morning. If I had said, "I will speak thus," Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children. When I pondered to understand this, it was troublesome in my sight until I came into the sanctuary of God; then I perceived their end. Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction. How they are destroyed in a moment! They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors! Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form. When my heart was embittered And I was pierced within, then I was senseless and ignorant; I was like a beast before You. Nevertheless I am continually with You; You have taken hold of my right hand. With Your counsel You will guide me, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? and besides You, I desire nothing on earth. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. For, behold, those who are far from You will perish; You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You. But as for me, the nearness of God is my good; I have made the Lord GOD my refuge, That I may tell of all Your works.

​

 

[enoch son]

What is more important the temple or the Christ in you coming to fullness? And what does God used to teach us and make us come into the fulnness? Answer. Your body,soul and spirit. This body I'm in, is cursed and nothing can change that! From dust it came and to dust it most go back. (Praise God for the new one that is to come amen) So I say, turn it over to the Most High God, for it is His will that will done in all matters.
And after thought. What is your body to God? Did He not make it? To Him it is as clay! And oh-by the way there is only 6 way's under the new con. that one can be healed.
A slave in Christ the least of the called out ones Ken.

 

[razzelflabben]

And oh-by the way there is only 6 way's under the new con. that one can be healed.
A slave in Christ the least of the called out ones Ken.

Please expound.

 

[PottersClay]

What is more important the temple or the Christ in you coming to fullness? And what does God used to teach us and make us come into the fulnness? Answer. Your body,soul and spirit.

Ah, but it must be body and soul in subjection to the spirit. The Greek word is Pneumatikos which is translated spiritual man or spirit led man.

If the soul (which is still in the process of being renewed) is left in control, he is what Paul calls a carnal Christian. The the Greek word is Psuchikos and is translated soulish man or carnal.

I think it is very important to point out Jesus did not only come to earth to become the perfect sacrificial Lamb that brought redemption. He came to completely reverse the effect of the fall. That's why in John 10:11 says

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."​

the word "life" in the Greek was not "zoe" which means the essense of life, but "psuche" which means His soul.

At the fall, Adam and Eve's disobedience to God came from acting out of their souls (ie desires) rather than their spirits (which were in intimate communion with God). Until that proper hierarchy is restored to our spirit/soul/body, we will always be predisposed to be carnal (soulish) christians.

Jesus demonstrated time and again that He would do nothing of Himself and He only did what He saw the Father do. So what He was "modeling" to us while on the earth was how are to deny self (psuche) and become led by the spirit (who has communication to God restored).

IMO the WOF teaching cultivates the desires of the soul, and that is the greatest problem because it does not require Christians to "die daily".

Those of you who are parents know you dont always give your children everything they ask for because it would cause them to become spoiled and/or selfish. And we understsand that is not in our child's best interest. So why would God promise His children everything they ask for whenever they ask for it when the results would be the same: self-centered Christians.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Q.

I saw some of them in me. You are probably a nicer person than I am.

As for didy, Why don’t you let Didy speak for himself? I have what I feel is a good relationship with him; I respect him, very much, and listen to him when he has something to say. We don’t always agree with each other but I feel we hear one another. I honestly do not feel that he is two-faced and would simply try to humor me, or anyone, just to humor me. But then, you may know him better than I. However, that is my impression of him.

I was not meaning to say that Diddy is two-faced. . .just that I don't believe he was literally identifying with a "cult" as I percieved to be implied. Sorry for the mistake.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was not meaning to say that Diddy is two-faced. . .just that I don't believe he was literally identifying with a "cult" as I percieved to be implied. Sorry for the mistake.

I think Jim knew that... at some level.
What I have been getting at is that sometimes tests like these, while well meaning, (I do believe brother Jim is well meaning) can be used or taken by some to extreme. We can all see ourselves in these tests. At least the "flesh" side of ourselves. Yes, I admit. I have a flesh. The temptation toward cultish behavior looms on all sides. Do we have to secume(sp?) to it? No. So I do not think we should beat ourselves up because we see it. The question is do we "be" it.

Hey.... but what do I know.
I am prone to walking in circles and drooling.

 

[ydouxist]

I was not meaning to say that Diddy is two-faced. . .just that I don't believe he was literally identifying with a "cult" as I percieved to be implied. Sorry for the mistake.

Quaffer
Your PM box is full. I tried to send you an article I came across that explains a lot about questions both of us had a few months ago. Let me know when I can send it.
Thanks

 

[enoch son]

1. in Jesus name
2. Gift of faith
3. Gift of miracles
4. Gift of healing
5. Oil and elder's
6. By the pray of a right standing man
7. Add one more by a act of grace by God. (salvation etc.)

 

[razzelflabben]

1. in Jesus name
2. Gift of faith
3. Gift of miracles
4. Gift of healing
5. Oil and elder's
6. By the pray of a right standing man
7. Add one more by a act of grace by God. (salvation etc.)

See if I understand you correctly,

1. in Jesus name - according to His will. If it is His will I am healed, I will be healed.
2. Gift of faith - My faith will heal me. Question, would one not overide all others?
3. Gift of Miracles - God gives miracles apart from all outside factors and if the will of God is a miracle, then a miracle you shall have.
4. Gift of healing - God has gifted some to healing. So then if I go to someone who has the gift of healing, I shall be healed.
5. Oil and elder's - If I am sick I should call upon the elders...
6. By the prayer of a right standing man - I assume you are referring to the remainder of 5, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
7. Add one more by the act of grace by God. (salvation etc.) Is not every gift an act of grace?

If I am understanding this correctly, then I would ask, does not number 1 over ride all the others and isn't 7 a precurser to all?