Why do Charismatics die?

[Andry]

This post does have some discussional merit and I greatly appreciate it, I shall meditate on it and study it further. I fear however, that I shall not be able to post further on this thread, for when my honesty is questioned, nothing I say will be viewed with worth. This is greivous from a thread such as this, but it is truth. I am an honest person, seeking to know God and only God, not others teachings of God. I hope to find the truth amidst all the other teachings and am saddened that this thread will not be there to assist in that quest but I am confident that as I seek to know God, I shall find Him.

Please don't leave!!

We're all guilty of being insensitive, harsh, cynical, sarcastic, ad naseaum in these forums. I'm guilty of it also. But all of us have different personalities (thank God for that), different maturity levels, different backgrounds, different language or grammar skills etc. and often times, it is difficult to convey nuances in emotion, speech, tones - and impossible in body language - through typing out words instead of a face to face conversation.

And I dare say many here do not understand the concepts of logical reasoning let alone Biblical exegesis (not requirements by the way!), so that with issues that we are passionate about we can get carried away and start attack/question the person instead of the position.

So personally, I would like to know your thoughts on this post. God bless!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It's not a matter of reinterpreting Scripture. I said in my previous post that I God can and does heal, and I belive that it is His desire that we are healed. I've also been both the recipient and a vessle for dramatic healing miracles. So belief is not the problem.

Even those who have had dramatic healing ministries do not see 100% healed. So the question still remains: What is the missing piece?

Hey PC,
The missing piece is always the same thing. Faith.
What is hindering faith?
Why do some not believe?
What is preventing it?

It is never an issue of the will of God. It is always the will of God that we live in health.

Faith is not so simple as just saying "I believe that."
No, if they did, they would recieve. Jesus does not lie. They may think they believe.... but something is preventing. Something is hindering their faith, and the question is not "what is the missing piece?" The question is "what is hindering my faith?"

Answer that question, and you will never be sick another day in your life.
As long as people hold on to old religious traditions about God wanting us sick or God using sickness to accomplish something in our lives, they never get to the place where we can even begin to believe.

Find what is hindering faith.
That is the key.

 

[PottersClay]

Hey PC, The missing piece is always the same thing. Faith.

That may be the "right" answer but it's too simple an answer.

What is hindering faith?
Why do some not believe?
What is preventing it?

Ah, now that's at least heading in the right direction. Those are some of the missing pieces that we're looking for. But, much to our chagrin, the answers are not so easily come by. And to further complicate things, the answers to those questions will be different since every situation is different.

Let me give you one scenario: my brother-in-law has a rare arthritic condition that is dibilitating. On at least one occasion, we both really believed "this is the day for healing!" yet, healing did not come. So what did prevent it??

Am I saying that makes the scripture wrong? By no means! ("Let God be true though every one were a liar.") But that question still needs an answer. I know it's out there, and I will not rest until I have it. But as of yet, I have not found the adequate answer, which, like I said, I believe is to be found in the heart of God.

Faith is not so simple as just saying "I believe that."
No, if they did, they would recieve. Jesus does not lie. They may think they believe.... but something is preventing. Something is hindering their faith, and the question is not "what is the missing piece?" The question is "what is hindering my faith?"

So you dont have the answer either?!

As long as people hold on to old religious traditions about God wanting us sick or God using sickness to accomplish something in our lives, they never get to the place where we can even begin to believe.

That I certainly agree with, but what about those who dont hold to the beliefs you just described? (I sure dont.)

Find what is hindering faith.
That is the key.

Alas, my friend, that leaves me back at where I started and no closer to the answer. Thanks for listening, though, and if you have any more insight, I'd be more than glad to listen.

 

[Trish1947]

Let me give you one scenario: my brother-in-law has a rare arthritic condition that is dibilitating. On at least one occasion, we both really believed "this is the day for healing!" yet, healing did not come. So what did prevent it??

Sorry for butting in this conversation, I hope its o.k. But let me ask a question, did you only believe for that day? And because your brother-in-laws healing wasnt manifested immediatly, he quit believeing? Have you read Kenneth Hagins book on his healing. It took months, but he saw the scriptures about healing and belived them regardless of his situation. He even had hands laid on him in prayer and yet his healing wasn't manifested for weeks later. You have to be consistant to your belief in the word, no matter what you see. But he was totally healed.

I have never talked about this, and only one person on this site knows this. But I have MS. ( I dont even like writting it down) I've had the symptoms of this for 15yrs. But I refuse, because of it manifesting itself , to believe anything but what God has said about my healing. So I'm not dead, like I should have been 7 yrs ago, or at least in a wheelchair, a total cripple, but my faith in Gods promise has taken most of the hidious symptoms away from me. It for me is a work in progress, but my faith is strong. My dr. says I'm a walking miracle, I walked 2 miles this morning, when 7 yrs ago, my husband would have to carry me from the bed to the couch. Yes, it trys to manifests itself sometimes, but I'm looking forward to that day, that I have no symptoms at all. Praise God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That may be the "right" answer but it's too simple an answer.

Ah, now that's at least heading in the right direction. Those are some of the missing pieces that we're looking for. But, much to our chagrin, the answers are not so easily come by. And to further complicate things, the answers to those questions will be different since every situation is different.

Let me give you one scenario: my brother-in-law has a rare arthritic condition that is dibilitating. On at least one occasion, we both really believed "this is the day for healing!" yet, healing did not come. So what did prevent it??

I would be forced to say you did not believe... if you had, he would have been healed. Who do we believe? Jesus or well meaning people?
The answer is always the same. For whatever reason... someone did not believe, and that because something was hindering the belief.

Am I saying that makes the scripture wrong? By no means! ("Let God be true though every one were a liar.") But that question still needs an answer. I know it's out there, and I will not rest until I have it. But as of yet, I have not found the adequate answer, which, like I said, I believe is to be found in the heart of God.

First things first. Eliminate the obvious. If someone does not see that it is always the will of God that we be in health... then that would be a start. After that there are other things that might hinder. Perhaps the sense of righteousness is missing? Maybe they have fears, doubts, guilts.... maybe they are not forgiving someone. Maybe an old mental or emotional issue is cropping up as a physical illness. Perhaps a demonic issue. The list could go on and on. The issue is there, but it is never one of God holding back. It is never one that God is against you. The issue is not with God.... ever. Until people get past that, they are always going to miss it.

So you dont have the answer either?!

Of course not. But we do have the heart of God. We know exactly what His will is for every one of us. It is always the same.

That I certainly agree with, but what about those who dont hold to the beliefs you just described? (I sure dont.)

They don't?

Alas, my friend, that leaves me back at where I started and no closer to the answer. Thanks for listening, though, and if you have any more insight, I'd be more than glad to listen.

The answer is there. Closer than you think. It is not a mystery nor is it unexpected. Expect to recieve an answer.

 

[Jim B]

As long as people hold on to old religious traditions about God wanting us sick or God using sickness to accomplish something in our lives, they never get to the place where we can even begin to believe.

I think most Christians today – Charismatic and non-Charismatic - will confess that they really do believe that God will heal and they will probably give you instances where they have either experienced it personally or seen it happen to others.

What most non-C’s object to is the way that healing is performed and sometimes used as a marketing tool for a “ministry.” To uninitiated people, putting healing on display like a magic show at a carnival is a bit too much to swallow and they react to these flamboyant “healers.” I share their displeasure.

They also question the statement that it is ALWAYS God’s will to heal. If that is so, they wonder, then why isn’t every believer healed? For the most part, their honest question goes unanswered by practitioners of healing and they are simply called the propagators of “old religious traditions” or accused of believing that “God wants us sick.”

Sometimes they just want an honest answer.

Got one?

\o/

 

[PottersClay]

Sorry for butting in this conversation, I hope its o.k.

Jump on in, Trish, the water's warm

But let me ask a question, did you only believe for that day? And because your brother-in-laws healing wasnt manifested immediatly, he quit believeing?

No, it was not only for one day. In spite of his disease (and this particular disease actually spawns other illnesses), my BIL has never wavered in his faith that God will heal him.

And with all due respect to your situation, I dont agree with the thinking that "I am healed, my body just doesnt know it yet". When God heals, we dont have to guess about it. Might it not happen when we want it? Sure, but that doesnt mean if he gets healed in 5 years, that's just how long God took to heal him. That's neither logical, practical, nor can that be backed up by scripture. If he's healed 1 month from now, or 5 years from now, that's when he received his healing, not ten years ago but it didnt show up until now.

Please dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to pull your faith out from under you. Lord's promise has obviously been a great strength to you and it's helped you not to just accept your situation without fighting back. That is just a different thing than this topic was referring to.

Peace
PC

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I have had people tell me that if we are sick then it is God's will and I completely dissagree with that. I believe that it is God's will that we be in health and prosper in ALL things even as our soul prospers. I believe that His Word clarifies that.

What Jesus did on the cross for us was done once and for all. If we are sick there are varieties of reasons. . .and I don't believe any of them are "God WANTS it". Yes, God will use our sicknesses and diseases to teach us things but He personally does not make HIS children sick. We ARE healed. Whether we walk in it or not is according to our faith which also includes a walk of obedience to His Word. That does not mean there are no areas of growth needed. . .but it does mean that whether my body agrees with the Word or not. . .my mind will. Because I continuelly put it under subjection to the Word and Will of God. Which is "me being in health and prosperity in all things even as my soul is".

 

[Trish1947]

PottersClay

Please dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to pull your faith out from under you. Lord's promise has obviously been a great strength to you and it's helped you not to just accept your situation without fighting back. That is just a different thing than this topic was referring to.

Peace
PC

At first I did give in and try to accept it. But it got under my skin. It wasn't to me, according to the word of God. We disagree on when God plans to do it. I'm convienced my healing took place over 2,000 years ago. So, I'm abiding in that knowledge. I believed that God calls those things that be not, as though they we're. So I do too. Hope you see my point.

 

[Mercy Me]

Just a question.....not to be smarty-pants..... but a real question (from someone who has always believed it is God's will):

Trish..... what if you WERE in a wheelchair, or still having your husband carry you, what would be your answer?

I have seen and been used as a conduit for healing multitude of times. Have stood on the Word for so many things. And, I know that we cannot base our theology on our failures. But, after 15 years of "walking in faith", AND having it work, traumatic evil happened to me, that no amount of standing on the Word, claiming it, believing for it, etc. changed the situation. That was five years ago, and since then, it seems no matter how much I stand, claim, forgive, fast, pray, whatever, nothing works. Might as well pray the opposite of what I want, because that is what seems to happen.

I taught for years on 3 John 2, lectured on it and even wrote a book on it!! But, now.....? My pastor says God allowed all the evil to happen so I can now teach people: "What do you do when the Word DIDN'T work for you? What do you do when the child you claimed healing for DIED anyway? What do you do when your spouse chose sin over you no matter how hard you prayed and put prayer cloths under their side of the bed? What do you do when you sowed seed & tithed in faith and your business still went belly-up or the rent didn't get paid?"

Would love to teach on that, but I don't have the answers yet myself

Was always taught that since God can never be wrong, I am to blame. Since I will never be perfect this side of heaven, seems that there is always an "out", a reason why I was at fault and the manifestation didn't come. It is demoralizing, to say the least.

 

[Trish1947]

Mercy MeJust a question.....not to be smarty-pants..... but a real question (from someone who has always believed it is God's will):

Trish..... what if you WERE in a wheelchair, or still having your husband carry you, what would be your answer?

I guess my answer would be Let God be true and everything else be a lie. I dont claim to have all the answers why things turn out the way they do. If I didnt believe what I believe, I know that I would be in a wheelchair, or worse. I went both sides of the gambit on this. I first accepted this, and thought that If I have too, I can do all things through Him. But what about what His word says? Do I throw it out the window without giving my belief in God's promise a chance? I couldnt do that. I felt it was my choice now. If God really showed me in scipture that he was going to use my illness somehow, to glorify God, then I'd say take me and use me. But its not written anywhere that it brings glory to God not to believe his word. When Jesus was ministering, he made no one sick, and called no attention to the sick and how glorified God was. Death, and sickness happened in His ministry, but the glory came by them being made well. Why some are not healed is not for me to figure out. God knows the heart, and the faith, of a person. When the people asked Jesus "why was this man born blind." He said that the glory of God could be manifest" And he healed him. In this statement shows me that if you have sickness, its an opportunity for God to show his glory through you by making you well. I cant say why all this has happend to you. Other people apparently are involved and they have their own hearts and choices. I have had my own family treat me like pond scum, some think I'm just a crazy lady, but it is true that no matter what road you are on, He will work all things to the good.

 

[Jim B]

I guess my answer would be Let God be true and everything else be a lie.

You might phrase that, Let God be true and every man's interpretation a lie. Much of what you advance as "the Word" Trish is only your interpretation of the Word. There is a difference between what is Truth and what we understand to be truth. Don't confuse them.

\o/

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I guess my answer would be Let God be true and everything else be a lie. I dont claim to have all the answers why things turn out the way they do. If I didnt believe what I believe, I know that I would be in a wheelchair, or worse. I went both sides of the gambit on this. I first accepted this, and thought that If I have too, I can do all things through Him. But what about what His word says? Do I throw it out the window without giving my belief in God's promise a chance? I couldnt do that. I felt it was my choice now. If God really showed me in scipture that he was going to use my illness somehow, to glorify God, then I'd say take me and use me. But its not written anywhere that it brings glory to God not to believe his word. When Jesus was ministering, he made no one sick, and called no attention to the sick and how glorified God was. Death, and sickness happened in His ministry, but the glory came by them being made well. Why some are not healed is not for me to figure out. God knows the heart, and the faith, of a person. When the people asked Jesus "why was this man born blind." He said that the glory of God could be manifest" And he healed him. In this statement shows me that if you have sickness, its an opportunity for God to show his glory through you by making you well.

Good answer despite what our flesh says. . .God's Word is still the truth. My flesh going against the Word of God is not to be my dictator of what my heart believes. The Word of God is true. . .no matter what.

Am I still struggling with my flesh obeying? Yes. Do I take medicine in the meantime? Yes! But my mind still believes what the Word says. . . "By His stripes we ARE/WERE healed. Period. Until my flesh complies I will choose to believe nothing else. . .even if I die believing. . .His Word remains true.

 

[crystalpc]

Sorry for butting in this conversation, I hope its o.k. But let me ask a question, did you only believe for that day? And because your brother-in-laws healing wasnt manifested immediatly, he quit believeing? Have you read Kenneth Hagins book on his healing. It took months, but he saw the scriptures about healing and belived them regardless of his situation. He even had hands laid on him in prayer and yet his healing wasn't manifested for weeks later. You have to be consistant to your belief in the word, no matter what you see. But he was totally healed.

I have never talked about this, and only one person on this site knows this. But I have MS. ( I dont even like writting it down) I've had the symptoms of this for 15yrs. But I refuse, because of it manifesting itself , to believe anything but what God has said about my healing. So I'm not dead, like I should have been 7 yrs ago, or at least in a wheelchair, a total cripple, but my faith in Gods promise has taken most of the hidious symptoms away from me. It for me is a work in progress, but my faith is strong. My dr. says I'm a walking miracle, I walked 2 miles this morning, when 7 yrs ago, my husband would have to carry me from the bed to the couch. Yes, it trys to manifests itself sometimes, but I'm looking forward to that day, that I have no symptoms at all. Praise God.

PRAISE be to our loving Father! Trish, hang in there, healing comes it always comes!. When my ankle was broken I said I was healed on the basis of Isa: 58, not because it felt healed, or because it even looked healed, but on the basis that God said he made my bones strong.
Praise God his word is trustworthy, and the healing is just as sweet, when we can say we are totally symptom free. MS is a monster, but his word is the Monster Slayer!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

You might phrase that, Let God be true and every man's interpretation a lie. Much of what you advance as "the Word" Trish is only your interpretation of the Word. There is a difference between what is Truth and what we understand to be truth. Don't confuse them.

\o/

But Jim. . .the scripture says, "let God be true and every man a liar". Surely you are not suggesting we rewrite scripture to fit our experience. To say it as you've suggested is exactly that.

Scripture is full of people who had promises from God and though many of them never saw the fullfillment of that promise they never gave up believing they would. Yet, God did not fail a one of them.

Scripture says, "by His stripes we ARE/WERE healed". I'm not gonna call Him a liar.

 

[Jim B]

But Jim. . .the scripture says, "let God be true and every man a liar". Surely you are not suggesting we rewrite scripture to fit our experience. To say it as you've suggested is exactly that.

Scripture is full of people who had promises from God and though many of them never saw the fullfillment of that promise they never gave up believing they would. Yet, God did not fail a one of them.

Scripture says, "by His stripes we ARE/WERE healed". I'm not gonna call Him a liar.

Nope. I am saying let God be true and let every man be a liar - and that especially includes our misperceptions of Him and His Word, our pet doctrines, and the bad teaching we have received from others.

\o/

 

[razzelflabben]

Thank you for all the support, I hesitate to come back but, I came here looking for some answers so maybe, sticking around a while will result in some answers.

I have been studying and questioning these answers for so very many years. I am not even sure how many years it has been, at least since I was a very young girl. I still have many questions but I have found a couple of answers, that at least give us a starting point.

First, I have yet to find scriptural basis for the belief that God heals all beleivers of physical affirmities if they have enough faith to believe. All of the teachings on this that I have heard, make huge leaps in coming to this conclusion and that is something that I try to avoid in that it is against scripture to read into the Word things that are not there.

To that end, there are two things I have learned, that are scripturally sound that might help in this discussion. One is that the death and resurrection are eternal truths that were given to us in a tangable way. Let us look at it this way, the Greeks had two words for time. My husband can tell you the words if you are interested but I can never remember them. One is eternal, timeless, time just flows. This kind of time is predomiant in the scripture and is the time in which God functions. The other is measured. Temperal, physical time. Scripture shows us a God that cares deeply for the temperal while living in the eternal. If our minds and hearts are focused, on God, then our focus is also on the eternal, not the temporal. This is almost impossible for a physical being, but is a goal. The eternal is extremely hard for temperal man to comprehend which is why I suspect it is so hard to understand why God chooses to heal some and not others and also why I suspect it is so hard to understand why God doesn't put forth scriptures to back the teaching that he heals everyone. If we had the mind of God, I think we would understand but not only do we not have the mind of God, we don't even think in the same time as God, or the same reality. (This idea also supports the scriptures that reference spiritual healing as a constant.)

The second, I already touched on is that of the resurrection is a tangable way of seeing and intangable truth. What is true in the temperal is not always true in the eternal. For example, in the temperal world, we are very poor. In the eternal, we are wealthy beyond compare. In the temperal, I am stiff and sore, in the eternal, I move easily, why because in the temperal world, I live in a sinnful, fallen world. When I am resurrected, I am resurrected in a tangible, perfect body, to a perfect, sinless world. In the temperal, I live in a body that is perishable. In the eternal, I live in an imperishable body and world.

This does not answer all the questions on the subject of healing but it does give us a starting point.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I believe we ALL have misperceptions of Him and His Word. However, since "He is the Author and Finisher of our Faith" and since "He faithfully see's through to the end what He has begun in us", then it's really nobody's business if I choose to stand in faith or not.

The misperception may actually be coming from the person struggling with "jealousy" of another just because the other is standing in faith while they themselves have chosen instead to wallow in self pity. You've heard the statement "misery love's company".

I'm not trying to force my "standing in faith" on other's. Neither should they try and pull my faith away. If I die with my flesh in rebellion, I will still claim that "I AM HEALED!" His Word is true for me and it has never failed me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You know it is called the good fight of faith....
And we are told to hold fast to the confesson of our faith...
And it is written let God be true and every man a liar...
These and many other teachings show that this is not going to be a walk in the park. But one thing is always true and all must agree:

Hebrews 11:6 GW
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

We do not pretend to know all the answers to why some do not appropriate their healing. But I pray God that we all eliminate from our hearts and minds the notion that God is responsible in any way shape or manner. Above all we should seek to please God, and that means acknowledging that He always rewards the seeker. He never withholds healing, prosperity, or any other blessing. Forget the blessing part and grab hold of the pleasing God part. Confess that He rewards you always and forever.
I cannot say what I would do if I had a debilitating ilness. I have walked in health for over thirty years. I have not stayed in a hospital or had any illness worse than a cold all that time. I have also always believed the things we are saying here about God. But I pray that if I were in a wheelchair or had some sickness that led to my death... that God would help give me the strength to maintain the confession of His word right down to the last breath. We walk by faith, not by sight. Let God be true and every man a liar. By His stripes we were healed. In all that, it would not be my primary goal to be healed... rather it would be my primary goal to maintain the good confession, to not slander God, and to always please Him by acknowledging that He in fact is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Some of you folks think we are about healing and health... that is only the superficial temporal outward manifestations. What we are really about is pleasing God by living and dying on His Word. It is siding with God when all seems to rise up against you. It is looking death and hell in the face and declaring that God is our redeemer and we do not care what happens... He is always with us and on our side.
As usual folks get angry and start stomping out. But that too is part of the confession. It is the willingness to be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected for the sake of His word. If you are really detemined to suffer for Him, then do it the right way.... not by insisting on your right to be sick and impoverished, but by decaring His word is true before the devil, the mockers, and the nay-sayers.
Ultimately the Lord who has cast the seed into you is waiting to see what you will do. Will it grow and produce fruit in you? Or will you take offence and let it die. I pray that you side with God and His word. Regardless if you receive... it is more important that you stand fast with Him.
That is faith... and that is being faithful.

Dids

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Oh Didy. . .I agree completely