Why do Charismatics die?

[Trish1947]

didaskalosYou know it is called the good fight of faith....
And we are told to hold fast to the confesson of our faith...

Amen, Didy, those spiritual boxing gloves!!!!

 

[PottersClay]

PottersClay At first I did give in and try to accept it. But it got under my skin. It wasn't to me, according to the word of God. We disagree on when God plans to do it. I'm convienced my healing took place over 2,000 years ago. So, I'm abiding in that knowledge. I believed that God calls those things that be not, as though they we're. So I do too. Hope you see my point.

I never meant to imply we should just accept affliction. Resisting an illness or affliction is something we should do, but the fact is, we live in a fallen world and sometimes we do contract diseases (either genetically or otherwise) and that is not evidence of a lack of faith.

There's a big difference between "accepting" an affliction, and acknowledging it. The former implies a passivity or resignation, which certainly isnt something we should do, but to acknowledge an affliction allows one to deal with the circumstances clearly.

I too, agree that God calls those things that are not as though they are, and it is obvious that you are walking in the faith in the promise the Lord gave you. But there is sometimes a fine line between faith and denial.

 

[Trish1947]

I too, agree that God calls those things that are not as though they are, and it is obvious that you are walking in the faith in the promise the Lord gave you. But there is sometimes a fine line between faith and denial.

I'm going to ask you to explain this to me if you will. What would be the denial?

 

[PottersClay]

Was always taught that since God can never be wrong, I am to blame. Since I will never be perfect this side of heaven, seems that there is always an "out", a reason why I was at fault and the manifestation didn't come. It is demoralizing, to say the least.

This, my friends is where my major problem lies. I believe the promises of God, but if what we are teaching about things such as teaching leave someone like Mercy feeling ostracized by the church for not having enough faith, or to feel abandoned by God, and demoralized, then something about our interpretetion of scripture that has led to these teachings is off somewhere.

I am saying let God be true and let every man be a liar - and that especially includes our misperceptions of Him and His Word, our pet doctrines, and the bad teaching we have received from others.

I couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Trish1947]

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This, my friends is where my major problem lies. I believe the promises of God, but if what we are teaching about things such as teaching leave someone like Mercy feeling ostracized by the church for not having enough faith, or to feel abandoned by God, and demoralized, then something about our interpretetion of scripture that has led to these teachings is off somewhere.
.

We cannot help how people feel. I have yet to be in a church where half the people were sick with some malady or another. I doubt if any of us go to a church that has so much health that it would "ostracize" anyone. This, sister, is a straw man argument. Has this happened, or is it just a fear that some hold. Or perhaps it is just a talking point to present in discussions like this? All the while I have been on these boards and others, I have never once seen anyone belittle another for not having "enough faith". Even if they did, what is worse? Admiting that I am at fault and could use a little spiritaul growth... or accusing God of it and letting myself off the hook? As we have been saying... let God be true and every man a liar. We all fail and have need of growth... that is no reason to capitulate to the enemy and deny God and His word. And we cannot back up on the promises of God just because someone fains offense. Do what we all do... praise God and move on. In the end give God the glory for what He has done... and do not cater to our feelings, failures, and imagined rejection.

 

[Mercy Me]

We cannot help how people feel. In the end give God the glory for what He has done... and do not cater to our feelings, failures, and imagined rejection.

Ouch.

Not much compassion on this board. But there are LOTS of beatings with the bible.

Sad.

One tries to get understanding (lots of greats in the bible asked, begged, sought, argued with God to know WHY) and only gets beaten instead. Accused of pity parties.

Sorry I shared with you you DIDASKALOS...thought you would respond in love....yet, you didn't respond at all.

 

[PottersClay]

I'm going to ask you to explain this to me if you will. What would be the denial?

(Note, "you" is being used in a general sense)

Denial is when you're sick but insists you're healthy (dont mind these pesky symptoms). It's not being honest that you're still waiting for the Lord to heal you. It's putting up a front for people in church, telling everyone that you know you're healed when you've just been diagnosed with a tumor and you're just plain scared.

Denial is knowing that there are dilemas and quandries regarding the scriptures about healing, but dismissing them with the broad stroke of "lack of faith" without honestly finding out if there might be more to the picture than we're willing to face.

 

[Andrew]

But there is sometimes a fine line between faith and denial.

I know what you mean. In many cases, its a mixture of both, i think becos people are still developing and building up their faith, learning to walk by faith. you don't really develop mountain moving faith overnight, except perhaps for some.

The ideal situation of cse, is that you get a personal revelation from God that you are healed so much so that you just know so!! The symptoms may still be there but you are just so sure you are healed. In such cases, there is no fear but a peace, a deep knowing that all WILL be well very soon.

Denial is knowing that there are dilemas and quandries regarding the scriptures about healing,

There aren't any. To say that is to say that the scriptures are not clear and sometimes problematic when it comes to salvation. But is salvation that complicated to understnd?

but dismissing them with the broad stroke of "lack of faith"

In the majority of cases, it IS a lack of faith for healing. Spend some time talking to a sick person believing God for healing and 9 out of 10 times, from his words, you can tell that he doesnt really believe, or at least finds it hard to believe. They talk 10 times more about their sickness and the latest report from the doctor and the seriousness of their condition then about what God says about their healing.

There's a saying: "Half the things we profess to believe in, we don't really believe in." And this usually comes to light when the rubber meets the road. When everything is fine and rosy, it's very easy to say "Amen, praise the Lord!" But we have to start somehwere.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Ouch.

Not much compassion on this board. But there are LOTS of beatings with the bible.

Sad.

One tries to get understanding (lots of greats in the bible asked, begged, sought, argued with God to know WHY) and only gets beaten instead. Accused of pity parties.

Sorry I shared with you you DIDASKALOS...thought you would respond in love....yet, you didn't respond at all.

Nobody is beating anyone. That is silly. Love wants to see you 100% healthy and prosperous in every way. You can choose to see it any other way you want. But it is all offered in the spirit of love and genuine desire to see you blessed and God glorified.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

(Note, "you" is being used in a general sense)

Denial is when you're sick but insists you're healthy (dont mind these pesky symptoms). It's not being honest that you're still waiting for the Lord to heal you. It's putting up a front for people in church, telling everyone that you know you're healed when you've just been diagnosed with a tumor and you're just plain scared.

Denial is knowing that there are dilemas and quandries regarding the scriptures about healing, but dismissing them with the broad stroke of "lack of faith" without honestly finding out if there might be more to the picture than we're willing to face.

When I was nearly bleeding to death on a daily basis, for years, and I was going to the doctor and they had done EVERYTHING that worked for everybody else but not for me I would say, "according to God's word I am healed".

I would sit and weep as people would lay hands on me and pray. Was I scared. . .you bet. But God is my Healer. And I would rather have all that prayer where my faith was being built instead of people tearing apart my faith and telling me to look at my circumstances instead of my God.

 

[Trish1947]

(Note, "you" is being used in a general sense)

Denial is when you're sick but insists you're healthy (dont mind these pesky symptoms). It's not being honest that you're still waiting for the Lord to heal you. It's putting up a front for people in church, telling everyone that you know you're healed when you've just been diagnosed with a tumor and you're just plain scared.

Denial is knowing that there are dilemas and quandries regarding the scriptures about healing, but dismissing them with the broad stroke of "lack of faith" without honestly finding out if there might be more to the picture than we're willing to face.Today 06:43 PM

I never said by any means that with one broad stroke its due to lack of faith, I said I do not know why some get healed and others dont. And I'm not waiting for the Lord some day to heal me, I am being healed everyday. Was I scared? Sure, thats a normal human reaction right off the bat, until I realized that Gods word was greater than my fear, that Gods word was greater than MS, that Gods word was for me today, that Gods word was my consolation, my hope, my peace. My recovery.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mercy,

I'm sorry that you feel using God's word to show the truth is beating. It is really unfair for you to blame others for your feelings. We don't want to hurt people yet telling the truth sometimes does.

I would much rather that I hear the truth that would set me free than have people just telling me what I want to hear so that I can feel good.

 

[crystalpc]

You know it is called the good fight of faith....
And we are told to hold fast to the confesson of our faith...
And it is written let God be true and every man a liar...
These and many other teachings show that this is not going to be a walk in the park. But one thing is always true and all must agree:

Hebrews 11:6 GW
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

We do not pretend to know all the answers to why some do not appropriate their healing. But I pray God that we all eliminate from our hearts and minds the notion that God is responsible in any way shape or manner. Above all we should seek to please God, and that means acknowledging that He always rewards the seeker. He never withholds healing, prosperity, or any other blessing. Forget the blessing part and grab hold of the pleasing God part. Confess that He rewards you always and forever.
I cannot say what I would do if I had a debilitating ilness. I have walked in health for over thirty years. I have not stayed in a hospital or had any illness worse than a cold all that time. I have also always believed the things we are saying here about God. But I pray that if I were in a wheelchair or had some sickness that led to my death... that God would help give me the strength to maintain the confession of His word right down to the last breath. We walk by faith, not by sight. Let God be true and every man a liar. By His stripes we were healed. In all that, it would not be my primary goal to be healed... rather it would be my primary goal to maintain the good confession, to not slander God, and to always please Him by acknowledging that He in fact is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Some of you folks think we are about healing and health... that is only the superficial temporal outward manifestations. What we are really about is pleasing God by living and dying on His Word. It is siding with God when all seems to rise up against you. It is looking death and hell in the face and declaring that God is our redeemer and we do not care what happens... He is always with us and on our side.
As usual folks get angry and start stomping out. But that too is part of the confession. It is the willingness to be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected for the sake of His word. If you are really detemined to suffer for Him, then do it the right way.... not by insisting on your right to be sick and impoverished, but by decaring His word is true before the devil, the mockers, and the nay-sayers.
Ultimately the Lord who has cast the seed into you is waiting to see what you will do. Will it grow and produce fruit in you? Or will you take offence and let it die. I pray that you side with God and His word. Regardless if you receive... it is more important that you stand fast with Him.
That is faith... and that is being faithful.

Dids

I agree with Didy 100% not just because God has healed me. But because his Word is true. I walked in faith with PP MS for many years, believing all the time I was healed, although the manifestation had not been revealed in my body. I believed it, simply because scripture said it. I had many battles with the disease. and times my faith would lag behind. However, it did not change the fact that God's word said I was healed, and I still believed God's word in spite of near death experiences. He is faithful to his word, and it never returns to him void, never.
If I was still had the disease, I would still believe the word that says I am healed. No one has all the answers, we see through a glass darkly, but what has been revealed in his word is no longer darkness, but light. By his stripes we were healed.
The word says that it is God's will that all would be saved, yet not all are saved. Why? Because some don't know they are lost, others don't care, and still others haven't heard. So salvation although paid for all, is not appropriated by all. Did salvation do them any good?
There are those who may never appropriate healing, while others walk in divine health, should we make God's word of none effect, for the sake of our experiences, that is exactly what the Pharisee's did in the case of the blind man. Since my healing, christian people, have questioned "who does she think she is?" When I was ill, these same people came and visited me in the hospital held my hand, wept with my family everytime death was near, yet now that I walk in health, they question if I was sick to begin with...whew..

Now God uses many methods to heal, confession, laying on of hands, annointing cloths, and even Drs, yet we read that King Hezekiah sought physicians rather than God for a disease of his feet, and within 2 years died of it. I still go to Drs, as does my husband, but not first without seeking God first. If nothing else for him to quide the drs. But there are diseases that drs, cannot cure, diseases unto death. Who is the holder of our life? God and God alone.
I prayed in faith for my younger sister's healing of lung cancer, I don't know why she didn't recieve, it was doubly hard to lose her, I know that one day I will ask her when I get to heaven. But that did not stop me from beleiving in God's word, or even stop my healing from taking place.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Hey PC,
The missing piece is always the same thing. Faith.
What is hindering faith?
Why do some not believe?
What is preventing it?

It is never an issue of the will of God. It is always the will of God that we live in health.

Faith is not so simple as just saying "I believe that."
No, if they did, they would recieve. Jesus does not lie. They may think they believe.... but something is preventing. Something is hindering their faith, and the question is not "what is the missing piece?" The question is "what is hindering my faith?"

Answer that question, and you will never be sick another day in your life.
As long as people hold on to old religious traditions about God wanting us sick or God using sickness to accomplish something in our lives, they never get to the place where we can even begin to believe.

Find what is hindering faith.
That is the key.

Hi Didaskalos,
forgive me for intruding , I am also interested in what hinders faith. Jude 1:3 says "become contenders for THE TRUE FAITH that was delivered once to the Apostles." and Peter says ..."a FAITH LIKE OURS... The FAITH that Jesus Christ transmitted to the Apostles is the same FAITH He operated in , but the faith that operates in much of "christianity" is not the same as the FAITH of the Apostles, don't you agree? I am not saying this to find fault or to criticise. When I read I Cor 5:6,7&8 I see that there is a "yeast" that covers a ship with barnacles to the point that there is more barnacles than ship.
Then when I read 2 Thess. 2:10-12..."they have not opened their hearts to LOVE THE TRUTH in order to be saved."Therefore God sends them a perverse spirit which leads them to believe a lie ... ending up condemned."
Seems to me God is BIG TIME scrutinizing how we LOVE TRUTH since TRUTH is his middle name.(One-True-God),(Way-Truth-Life) The answer is;you and I
start scraping away every barnacle, Pray God will uproot every tree that He has not Planted. Make straight the path of the Lord. and conform our lives to the NEW COVENANT,the teaching of the APOSTLES, and Matt.28:20..."Teach them to CARRY OUT EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU."
DRINK,This IS my Blood, the Blood of the NEW COVENANT to be poured out in behalf of many for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS," if we do not believe Him and obey Him then we are just a lot of "christian wannabes" still in our sins.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

That may be the "right" answer but it's too simple an answer.


Ah, now that's at least heading in the right direction. Those are some of the missing pieces that we're looking for. But, much to our chagrin, the answers are not so easily come by. And to further complicate things, the answers to those questions will be different since every situation is different.

Let me give you one scenario: my brother-in-law has a rare arthritic condition that is dibilitating. On at least one occasion, we both really believed "this is the day for healing!" yet, healing did not come. So what did prevent it??

Am I saying that makes the scripture wrong? By no means! ("Let God be true though every one were a liar.") But that question still needs an answer. I know it's out there, and I will not rest until I have it. But as of yet, I have not found the adequate answer, which, like I said, I believe is to be found in the heart of God.


So you dont have the answer either?!


That I certainly agree with, but what about those who dont hold to the beliefs you just described? (I sure dont.)


Alas, my friend, that leaves me back at where I started and no closer to the answer. Thanks for listening, though, and if you have any more insight, I'd be more than glad to listen.

Here is a real old tradition;Christ received STRIPES. do you suppose that made Him sick? would you?... Loss of blood all thru the night ,no sleep, beatings, pushing, shoving, do you suppose He was sick? nausiated? when the first nail was pounded thru His wrist, what experience or sensation tore thru His nerve system? do you suppose he went into shock? would you?
thru all he endured, can you still doubt that God uses sickness or pain or suffering to bring something GOOD to us? If His stripes heal you then God uses suffering (yours and mine) to bring us Good. How about Isaiah 53:10...
"But the Lord was pleased to crush Him in infirmity"
One of the barnacles (or tree that God has not planted) is the god of our society;the love of comfort. Carlos (the hitch-hiker)

 

[PottersClay]

I never said by any means that with one broad stroke its due to lack of faith, I said I do not know why some get healed and others dont. And I'm not waiting for the Lord some day to heal me, I am being healed everyday. Was I scared? Sure, thats a normal human reaction right off the bat, until I realized that Gods word was greater than my fear, that Gods word was greater than MS, that Gods word was for me today, that Gods word was my consolation, my hope, my peace. My recovery.

Trish, my definition of denial wasnt aimed at you. I can see that the Lord has given you a promise and a strength and you are either improving or at least the disease isnt progressing. So for you to say the Lord is in the process of healing you is an accurate statement.

But there are so many who have afflictions and trials that continue to deteriorate (like my BIL) and to say "I'm healthy" is simply not honest. It's denial and self-deception. And IMO the very sad thing about those who do this is they do it because they feel condemned if they cant have the "right kind of faith". OTOH to say, "yes, I'm afflicted, but I have complete confidence that God to heal me, and in the mean time, I'm going to learn as much as I can from this trial" this is honest, and is evidence of still leaning on the Lord, and IMO a stronger faith that trusts God in spite of affliction (though He slay me, yet will I trust Him)

 

[razzelflabben]

If you look at Jesus’ healing ministry on earth, he said, “I will” to anyone who asked for it. Looking at it another way, Jesus never refused to heal anyone. Jesus never did anything that was not the will of the Father, so if he said, “I will”, then it’s very clear what God the Father thinks about healing, and what our doctrinal position on healing ought to be.

When Jesus sent out the 70, he said a simple, straightforward, “Go heal the sick.” Preach the kingdom, and heal the sick. Just one of those throw away lines that we have to give an hour long theological dissertation to.

Our problem is, when faced with difficult circumstances in life, such as an illness personally or in the family, is we start interpreting Scripture according to the circumstances. Instead of interpreting our circumstances according to Scripture. So in a way, we’ve made our circumstance as ‘doctrine’, ie. Healing can’t be God’s will because my grandmother died of cancer and she was a believer. While the circumstances may be true – ie. I’m sick – Scripture will release us into truth – God wants me whole and healed. But once we believe and made that decision to take a stand of faith, grace and mercy that is sufficient for us is released into our lives. But another problem with that is, in a society of instant gratification, instant popcorn, and music/movies on demand, we expect that healing to be instantaneous. And most of the time, it’s not always ‘right now’.

I have been dwelling on this and I find it to have merit, there are two things that I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around however.

One, Where does faith come into play. In the biblical accounts of Jesus ministry, some were healed by thier faith, some who healed because thier sin was forgiven, some were healed by the casting out of demons, and some were healed dispite their faith. In other words, faith was not the key to healing, Jesus was.

Two, Jesus did not heal everyone. He pulled away from the crowds. I am not sure where or how this fits but it is necessary to look into it in line with this teaching. The records indicate those that were healed, not those that were not. Why did Jesus, who was God incarnate, pull away from the crowds and cease for a time from healing? My husbands theory is that though God is infinate, man is finite and cannot contain an infanite God. I am still processing that theory, any other thoughts?

 

[razzelflabben]

You know it is called the good fight of faith....
And we are told to hold fast to the confesson of our faith...
And it is written let God be true and every man a liar...
These and many other teachings show that this is not going to be a walk in the park. But one thing is always true and all must agree:

Hebrews 11:6 GW
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

We do not pretend to know all the answers to why some do not appropriate their healing. But I pray God that we all eliminate from our hearts and minds the notion that God is responsible in any way shape or manner. Above all we should seek to please God, and that means acknowledging that He always rewards the seeker. He never withholds healing, prosperity, or any other blessing. Forget the blessing part and grab hold of the pleasing God part. Confess that He rewards you always and forever.
I cannot say what I would do if I had a debilitating ilness. I have walked in health for over thirty years. I have not stayed in a hospital or had any illness worse than a cold all that time. I have also always believed the things we are saying here about God. But I pray that if I were in a wheelchair or had some sickness that led to my death... that God would help give me the strength to maintain the confession of His word right down to the last breath. We walk by faith, not by sight. Let God be true and every man a liar. By His stripes we were healed. In all that, it would not be my primary goal to be healed... rather it would be my primary goal to maintain the good confession, to not slander God, and to always please Him by acknowledging that He in fact is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Some of you folks think we are about healing and health... that is only the superficial temporal outward manifestations. What we are really about is pleasing God by living and dying on His Word. It is siding with God when all seems to rise up against you. It is looking death and hell in the face and declaring that God is our redeemer and we do not care what happens... He is always with us and on our side.
As usual folks get angry and start stomping out. But that too is part of the confession. It is the willingness to be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected for the sake of His word. If you are really detemined to suffer for Him, then do it the right way.... not by insisting on your right to be sick and impoverished, but by decaring His word is true before the devil, the mockers, and the nay-sayers.
Ultimately the Lord who has cast the seed into you is waiting to see what you will do. Will it grow and produce fruit in you? Or will you take offence and let it die. I pray that you side with God and His word. Regardless if you receive... it is more important that you stand fast with Him.
That is faith... and that is being faithful.

Dids

What you are discribing here, though a bit contridictory in language is a combination of Faith and Trust. Both essential to a Godly life but neither demanding health or prosperity. To trust God, with or without health and that trust motivating me to stand firm in my faith is a very Biblical teaching. This however, does not line up with the teachings you have put forth on healing. IN fact, I wonder how much of our healing is determined by totaly and complete trust in God and His will for our lives?

 

[visionary]

Is it our minds, and hands that are stopping God from working miracles in our lives? Are we taking the leaves off the tree for the healing of the nations? Do we believe that God has the answer for us? Do we trust what Man has done more than what God has done?

How many run to the doctor who will perscribe the drugs that man made faster than they would search for what God has for our health restoration? Let's see, let's radiate, to kill all the cells, immune system, it is for your own good. Oh, and by the way, do not forget to take your chemo, poison for the system, so that you will further kill more cells and your immune system. It is for your own good. Now isn't man wise.