Why do Charismatics die?

[SavedByGrace3]

Always, Didy?....

(((A very good post)))

Jim
\o/

Sometimes when I read posts by non-WOF people, I wonder if we know, worship, and serve the same God. I am not talking speficially about you Jim, rather I am talking generally about non-WOF Christians. You know more about WOF than the average garden variety Christian. But you are the exception rather than the rule.
I do not hesitate to say that I believe that "WOF does Christianity right". I believe we see God the way He wants us to see Him. We believe the gospel the way He wants us to believed it. We exercise faith the way He wants us to exercise faith.
Please believe me when I say I am not putting anyone down! It just seems like so many good God loving believers are just out-right missing it. It is like we serve a different God and Father. It is like we are reading a different word. We are praying from a different Spirit. In some of the more extreme situations, it is almost like we are in totally different religions. Our differences are far deeper and more profound than one might think from reading our superfical little doctrinal skirmishes. I see God my Father totally different than you. I seem to see the passion and work of Jesus much deeper than what I read on these boards.
The idea that it is anything but the best and perfect will of God that we prosper and be in health is just so foreign to me. I cannot imagine that God would reach down from heaven and break a child's leg so he will not run from his parents. It is inconcievable to me that God would kill a child... regardless of what "good" purpose someone might imagine is behind that horror story.
Again, please believe that I am not questioning anyone's devotion to God or their commitment to Him. I just have come to the conclusion that some folks are never going to see the truth about God, the gospel, and the word. There is nothing we can do to make them see it. So I wonder what the point is. If people want to "as an act of faith" believe that God is the author of their sickness, poverty, and death... then we can only say "be it unto according to your faith." Again... please believe me when I say I am not being sarcastic or belittling anyone. I am truely sorrowful that some will not see the message of faith and love that He has given us. Like atheists, it is a matter of faith with them that they not believe.
So when it seems you are seeing belligerence on the WOF side of the camp... know that in some cases it is genunie frustration at the knowledge that some will go away sick, some will go way impoverished, and some will go away to some other fate of neediness... and that because we were unable to convince them of something they have faithfully devoted themselves to not believe.

Your perplexed, howbeit totally commited Didy.

 

[Trish1947]

Didy, how come there's no WOF forum?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didy, how come there's no WOF forum?

There has been talk... at least at this low serf level.
Would it be a good thing?
Maybe yes, maybe no.
I sometimes find that label a pain. You end up being asked to defend things that you do not believe. Some guy who is considered WOF makes a dumb comment or ignorant prediction, and suddenly the whole moment is being called a cult. You get pegged as "one of those". People I would normally have great fellowship with are suddenly calling me false teacher and heritic.
I just want to be a believer.

 

[razzelflabben]

I know I am pretty slow sometimes but I would really appreciate it if someone would clarify what WOF stands for.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I know I am pretty slow sometimes but I would really appreciate it if someone would clarify what WOF stands for.

Word of Faith.
Used to be the faith movement.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for the pennies from heaven!

The reason the scriptures I gave had more to do with long life than health is because the OP asked:

My post responded to that question.
Thanks!
Dids

That's cool but I was a little confused so I went back to the OP and reread it.

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

So what scriptures then would support this idea of constant health?

​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That's cool but I was a little confused so I went back to the OP and reread it.

There are those charismatics that believe God desires all Christians to be in health and to have no sickness and disease - that they should be prayed for and healed. If any of you believe this, I have a question for you.

Do you never attend funerals of your church brethren?

So what scriptures then would support this idea of constant health?

​

Just a random sample:
Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
Psalms 34:10 "...they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing."
Psalms 103:3 "Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;"
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:"
Isaiah 53:5 "With his stripes we are healed."
Psalms 119:93 "I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me."
John 8:36 "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
2 Corinthians 2:14 "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ."
1 John 3:8 "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
3 John 1:2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."
1 Peter 2:24 "By whose stripes ye were healed."
Isaiah 40:29 "He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength."
Jeremiah 30:17 "I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds."
Matthew 8:17 "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."
Romans 8:26 "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities."
Isaiah 40:31 "They that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength."
Matthew 15:13 "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."
Romans 8:11 "He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Proverbs 3:7-8 "Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones."
Proverbs 4:20-22 "My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh."
Psalms 91:3 "Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence."
Psalms 42:11 "Hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God."
2 Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
Psalms 107:20 "He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions."
Jeremiah 33:6 "Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil."
Psalms 46:1 "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
Psalms 55:22 "Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved."
Psalms 25:20 "O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee."
Isaiah 50:7 "For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed."
Jeremiah 17:14 "Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise."
Psalms 119:107 "I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word."
Psalms 121:2 "My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."
Psalms 119:50 "This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me."
Isaiah 57:19 "Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him."
Psalms 116:10 "I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted."
Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee."
Exodus 15:26 "I will put none of these diseases upon thee...for I am the LORD that healeth thee."
Deuteronomy 7:15 "And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee."
Deuteronomy 7:14 "There shall not be male or female barren among you...."
James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

>>>thanks to the Jay Snell website<<<

 

[Trish1947]

There has been talk... at least at this low serf level.
Would it be a good thing?
Maybe yes, maybe no.
I sometimes find that label a pain. You end up being asked to defend things that you do not believe. Some guy who is considered WOF makes a dumb comment or ignorant prediction, and suddenly the whole moment is being called a cult. You get pegged as "one of those". People I would normally have great fellowship with are suddenly calling me false teacher and heritic.
I just want to be a believer.

After I posted the question, I thought maybe not a good idea. I'm difinatley WOF, with some reservations on current teaching, But no matter if we did have a WOF forum, there would be the same skeptical questions. If we did have one, at least those that come would know what to expect as far as our faith? I guess we're divided enough in the Christmatic section, sometimes a wide divide.

 

[razzelflabben]

Okay, so let us look at each scripture given for as I understand the question, it is not a matter of whether God can heal but rather does He always heal the believer. I have taken the time to narrow the references given to those that deal only with healing and though I freely admit I am not taking the time right now to study each in depth, we can look at them quickly and get a good idea of what God would have us know.
I usually use the NIV but have a KJV available.

Psalms 103:3 Two things, first, this is in conjunction with the first 2 verses, both of which deal with the soul, the inward, spiritual man. If we want to take it out of that context, we still see God is able but it is a stretch to say that His teaching here is that one is always healed. Spiritually, I see grounds for always healed but that is not limited to this passage.

Isaiah 53:5 Again, we are looking at a spiritual healing.

3 John 1:2 We already discussed this one, it is a greeting, hoping and praying for good health just as I would with a dear friend or family member.

I Peter 2:24 Once again, we are trying to make a transition from the eternal to the temperal. I am beginning to see a pattern.

Jer. 30:17 This is a restoration of Isreal. It is not meant as a message to individuals, but rather to a nation called Isreal.

Matt. 8:17 this is referring to a prophesy already fulfilled but, I could accept an interpretation of present day healing on this verse. The problem is in applying this verse to the totallity of scripture. So let us look further.

Rom. 8:26 NIV uses the word weakness. Very different words and understandings. If we choose to apply the word infirmaties, we can but to focus on the word, takes away the teaching of the passage, that of being the Spirits job, that of intercession, not of healing.

Prov. 3:7-8 This would also be a stretch in that good living will create a healthy environment for your body and thus bring health. Nothing about healing

Prov. 4:20-22 Same as Prov. 3:7-8 except that in this passage, NIV health is translated "an ornament to grace your neck"

Ps. 42:11 Again we see a discrepancy in the two translations but no discrepancy in the fact that again we are talking about the soul, spiritual not temporal. by the way, the KJV contenence does not equal physical health.

Ps. 107:20 verse 17 refers us to a fool whose afflication is caused by rebellious ways. We have already read several scriptures that refer to the diseases caused by poor life style, and see that in our society, but what about other diseases, not caused by poor lifestyle. This passage indicated that even the diseases caused by poor lifestyles are in God's control but does not indicate He feels everyone and says nothing about other diseases.

Jer. 33:6 Another prophesy to a nation, not an individual

Jer. 17:14 Who here would doubt that if God heals him, he is healed. Doesn't say that he heals everyone or even desires to.

Ps. 119:107 A plea for help does not equal healing in fact, the NIV says "Preseve my life" very different picture. To say that according to your word, does not indicate healing but rather an ackowledgement of God's sovernty as Jesus acknowledged in the Lords prayer. We will leave this one as an option since it would require more study but is still a weak arguement.

Ps. 119:50 In the midst of afliction, there is life. Sounds like a spiritual life rather than a healing. If it was a temperal life, then the affliction would cease.

Isaiah 57: 19 Talking about peace, again a spiritual vs. a temperal. The pattern here would lead me to believe that the spiritual healing is guarenteed, I don't see the same for temperal healing yet.

Ps. 116:10 Again, spiritual not physical Key word, land of the living.

Ex. 15:26 Now I have a problem. Some claim that God does not give disease yet this scripture clearly says that God did bring disease upon the Egyptians so now, we have a God who does give disease and a command that these diseases will not fall on the Isrealites if they obey. A direct contridiction to some of the teachings. And at the same time, a lack of support for the teaching that God heals all disease.

Deut. 7:14-15 different time, different place, different people. Limited to the diseases of God placed on the Egyptian, not all disease.

James 5:16 This is the strongest verse presented for this teaching presented. The only question I currently have in relation to this passage, is who is at fault if the person who is sick is not healed? The prayer of the righteous. I have heard many people of this teaching put the blame on the sick person. I would greatly question this part of the teaching on healing. Also indicates spiritual healing but not limited to spiritual and indicates the disease caused by sin.

So let us summarize the scriptures you presented. Spiritual healing is a guarentee. Living well is a recipe for health. God is concerned with our physical health. God does give disease. When a person shares with the body and they lay hands on, pray, and annoint someone sick, a righteous person needs to be involved or the healing is not there.

Any other scriptures to look?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

.

Any other scriptures to look?

None that could turn a stone into bread.

 

[razzelflabben]

None that could turn a stone into bread.

Meaning? I would, like everyone else in the world, like to believe that God will heal me everytime I asked, but before I can believe it, I must see it in scripture.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Meaning? I would, like everyone else in the world, like to believe that God will heal me everytime I asked, but before I can believe it, I must see it in scripture.

Not so... you will just invent some reason to make it spiritual or make it apply to someone else... or whatever. You have decided that you will not see it, and so you will not, regardless of what the scripture says.
Like Jesus, we can only withdraw and marvel....

 

[razzelflabben]

Not so... you will just invent some reason to make it spiritual or make it apply to someone else... or whatever. You have decided that you will not see it, and so you will not, regardless of what the scripture says.
Like Jesus, we can only withdraw and marvel....

Why do you say such things? because you were challenged? Because I actually read the passages presented? Because you think you know me? I am a seeker of the truth, even if that is uncomfortable for me, or you. I am opened to what you have to say and indicated that there were a couple of scriptures presented that could be interpreted to support the teaching. I also said however that those scriptures were inconclusive and that more study would be needed to make the teaching an absolute in scripture. If someone said that to me about a teaching I was discussing, I would jump on the bandwagon and prove it from scripture rather than hide behind a lame accussation. I truely am interested in what the scripture says and Jesus taught. I would like your help in finding the truth but truth and others teachings are not always the same thing which is why it is vital to study the scriptures pressented for ones self. That is what I did and found no grounds for a teaching that God always heals. Please rather than make unfounded accusations, help me to understand where this teaching is coming from in scirpture.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I would like your help in finding the truth...

I suppose the reason I withdrawl is because I do not believe this. I think anything anyone says will be refused. That is my opinion and I really do not have time for this. There are pleantly of people who are looking for truth.
I am being honest with you. I do not think that you are seeking. I wish you well and pray God give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, that you might know and experience the truth of His provisions. Please pray the same for me!
Blessings
Dids

 

[PottersClay]

it is not a matter of whether God can heal but rather does He always heal the believer.

Didy, I have to admit a bit of surprise at your responses. Every one of us has struggled with this dilema. I've been both the recipient and the conduit for miraculous healings, and I'm still left puzzled. I dont doubt for a moment Razzle's quest for truth in this matter.

I agree that the scripture clearly shows that God can and does heal, and I belive that it is desire that we are healed. But we have the inescapable fact that even those of us who are confident in these truths dont always get healed and sometimes our most heartfelt prayers on the behalf of loved ones needing healing are left unanswered.

That cant help but to leave us in the place where we ask why doesnt He always do it? If scripture is saying one thing but it's not what the reality we're living with, then what's the problem? Where's the missing piece? I know I sure dont get that one.

I too, am seeking truth on this. I know there's an answer. I know it with the very depths of my spirit. I believe, however, the missing piece lies not in the "words" of the scripture, (because there is always the possibility of misinterpreting them) but I believe the answer lies in the very heart of God. In fact, I'd say I'm absolutely convinced of this. And I also know that when I finally and fully understand why sometimes people arent healed, my ability to pray effectively for healing will greatly increase.

A fellow Truth seeker
PottersClay

 

[Trish1947]

It is God will for us to be well. It's part of the redemptive plan at the cross.

You could get well just reading and studying one scripture until it becomes truth to you. Like this one.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Then add this one.

Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk.

Then add this one, "There is therefore no more condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh."

When you understand the concept of what Jesus is saying to us here, it should be enough to produce enough faith in what Jesus did to get you well.

If you are redeemed, forgiven, no more condemnation from the Lord against you, then your sins are forgiven... so take up you bed and be well.

 

[Andry]

If you look at Jesus’ healing ministry on earth, he said, “I will” to anyone who asked for it. Looking at it another way, Jesus never refused to heal anyone. Jesus never did anything that was not the will of the Father, so if he said, “I will”, then it’s very clear what God the Father thinks about healing, and what our doctrinal position on healing ought to be.

When Jesus sent out the 70, he said a simple, straightforward, “Go heal the sick.” Preach the kingdom, and heal the sick. Just one of those throw away lines that we have to give an hour long theological dissertation to.

Our problem is, when faced with difficult circumstances in life, such as an illness personally or in the family, is we start interpreting Scripture according to the circumstances. Instead of interpreting our circumstances according to Scripture. So in a way, we’ve made our circumstance as ‘doctrine’, ie. Healing can’t be God’s will because my grandmother died of cancer and she was a believer. While the circumstances may be true – ie. I’m sick – Scripture will release us into truth – God wants me whole and healed. But once we believe and made that decision to take a stand of faith, grace and mercy that is sufficient for us is released into our lives. But another problem with that is, in a society of instant gratification, instant popcorn, and music/movies on demand, we expect that healing to be instantaneous. And most of the time, it’s not always ‘right now’.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didy....

A fellow Truth seeker
PottersClay

Thanks PC for the response. Blessings to you and may God enrich us with all knowledge and spiritual understanding!
We will get there... we just need to keep seeking and never be satisfied with merely enduring. We are overcomers.

 

[razzelflabben]

If you look at Jesus’ healing ministry on earth, he said, “I will” to anyone who asked for it. Looking at it another way, Jesus never refused to heal anyone. Jesus never did anything that was not the will of the Father, so if he said, “I will”, then it’s very clear what God the Father thinks about healing, and what our doctrinal position on healing ought to be.

When Jesus sent out the 70, he said a simple, straightforward, “Go heal the sick.” Preach the kingdom, and heal the sick. Just one of those throw away lines that we have to give an hour long theological dissertation to.

Our problem is, when faced with difficult circumstances in life, such as an illness personally or in the family, is we start interpreting Scripture according to the circumstances. Instead of interpreting our circumstances according to Scripture. So in a way, we’ve made our circumstance as ‘doctrine’, ie. Healing can’t be God’s will because my grandmother died of cancer and she was a believer. While the circumstances may be true – ie. I’m sick – Scripture will release us into truth – God wants me whole and healed. But once we believe and made that decision to take a stand of faith, grace and mercy that is sufficient for us is released into our lives. But another problem with that is, in a society of instant gratification, instant popcorn, and music/movies on demand, we expect that healing to be instantaneous. And most of the time, it’s not always ‘right now’.

This post does have some discussional merit and I greatly appreciate it, I shall meditate on it and study it further. I fear however, that I shall not be able to post further on this thread, for when my honesty is questioned, nothing I say will be viewed with worth. This is greivous from a thread such as this, but it is truth. I am an honest person, seeking to know God and only God, not others teachings of God. I hope to find the truth amidst all the other teachings and am saddened that this thread will not be there to assist in that quest but I am confident that as I seek to know God, I shall find Him.

 

[PottersClay]

Our problem is, when faced with difficult circumstances in life, such as an illness personally or in the family, is we start interpreting Scripture according to the circumstances. Instead of interpreting our circumstances according to Scripture. So in a way, we?ve made our circumstance as ?doctrine?, ie. Healing can?t be God?s will because my grandmother died of cancer and she was a believer. While the circumstances may be true ? ie. I?m sick ? Scripture will release us into truth ? God wants me whole and healed.

It's not a matter of reinterpreting Scripture. I said in my previous post that I God can and does heal, and I belive that it is His desire that we are healed. I've also been both the recipient and a vessle for dramatic healing miracles. So belief is not the problem.

Even those who have had dramatic healing ministries do not see 100% healed. So the question still remains: What is the missing piece?