Why do certain denominations NOT agree with Sola Fide (through faith alone)

[Kalevalatar]

The Finnish Orthodox site Ortodoksi.net has an article written by Father Andrei Verikov which flat out states that (apologies for the bad translation) "the Church encourages us to pray incessantly on behalf of the quick and the dead. Prayers for the dead not only may give relief to those condemned to suffer but may liberate them altogether. Therefore our prayers are priceless, and won't be lost in front of Creator."

Doesn't it follow that all one has to do, basically, is associate oneself with the right kind of righteous people, who will pray for you and keep praying for you, and then one doesn't have to worry, because there's a good chance those prayers will save you? Does it work like a popular vote or something, to supplement Jesus's sacrifice: get enough people to pray for you and there you go?

 

[WisdomTree]

And that somehow alludes to another dimension called purgatory?

How can you take something so vague and make such a giant leap towards a place called purgatory?

You have to understand that the basis of purgatory is not a place, but a process. It is usually described or illustrated as a place for the sake of understanding the concept, but purgatory is not so much of a "third place in the afterlife", but more like "content control" of some sort which purifies any impurities for those who go to heaven. It is equivalent to the Eastern Church's "final theosis", which means final purification.

So although most would understand it as being another dimension, this itself is not a Church doctrine (nor was it ever was). Rather it is a "state of condition".

 

[v8xj]

The Bible defines faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1).
That could mean a lot of things.
Many denominations hold to belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, the Messiah, as the key to Salvation.
Many hold that once saved always saved.
I strongly disagree with both of these. Firstly Satan believes and KNOWS who Jesus is, yet he ain't going to Heaven. Secondly, if you're once saved always saved, why bother anymore? Why worship? Why pray? Why live a good life pleasing to God?
Faith alone leaves you a lukewarm Christian and we know what the Bible says about that. Rev 3: 14-17 I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Parogar]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

The answer to that question, I believe (and this is just based on my own reading) is "It doesn't matter."
Abraham, as all Jews of his time, had their own pact with God. Jesus created a new covenant with God.

I mean, obviously Abraham's path to heaven was not through faith in Jesus Christ, because, as I'm sure you must be aware, he was a few thousand years too early

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Speaking of purgatory, I've never once seen that word (or anything even alluding to the existing of such a place) mentioned in the bible.

Isn't it a sin to claim that something of the sort exists if it's not in the bible?

For example, if I started going around telling everyone that Jesus said something he didn't, wouldn't that be a grave sin?

If so, what justification is there for inventing a third place of afterlife that is never mentioned in the bible?

Why do Roman Catholics even bother to worship Jesus if they don't actually believe or put stock into anything he even says?

It is in the Bible, remember Luther removed 7 Books from the Bible and portions of others.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It is in the Bible, remember Luther removed 7 Books from the Bible and portions of others.

Magnus,
Luther did not remove the deuterocanonicals. He put them in an appendix to his translation. He did not consider them inspired but "worthy to be read".

 

[WisdomTree]

It is in the Bible, remember Luther removed 7 Books from the Bible and portions of others.

Oi, this is a Lutheran subforum, careful how you state things.

 

[Moses Medina]

The Bible defines faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1).
That could mean a lot of things.
Many denominations hold to belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, the Messiah, as the key to Salvation.
Many hold that once saved always saved.
I strongly disagree with both of these. Firstly Satan believes and KNOWS who Jesus is, yet he ain't going to Heaven. Secondly, if you're once saved always saved, why bother anymore? Why worship? Why pray? Why live a good life pleasing to God?
Faith alone leaves you a lukewarm Christian and we know what the Bible says about that. Rev 3: 14-17 I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I will address two points you make.

1. Once saved always saved is not biblical, you are right. Lutherans do not teach this.

2. James does state this, Paul however states that it was by faith not by works, and does so repeatedly. Lutherans teach as the bible says, that we are justified by Faith, but that works follow. We do good works because we have been justified by Christ, not to be justified. They go hand in hand. Lutherans have never taught good works shouldn't be done.

 

[Moses Medina]

Read Romans 4:1-25

 

[HereIstand.Todd]

I think we can all agree that works follow faith. No, we are not justified by them but it is by grace through faith we are justified. Once one is a believer (no matter what christian faith you are in) he or she will want to do good works. The desire is there following faith and this I can testify to in my life.

Someone mentioned once saved always saved. This stems from Calvin's doctrines and the 5 points of calvinism some of which I believe and here are the five points:

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) I agree 100% with this. We are born sinners so we are dead spiritually. Thats why we Lutherans say yes to baptizing infants. My thinking is if I am dead that means I can in no way shape or form do anything at all to save myself its impossible. We are all depraved because of original sin.
Unconditional Election: Meaning nothing we have done or can do makes God save us. God does not base His election on anything He sees in us. I agree 100% with this.

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Jesus died only for the elect. This I have problems with as I believe the scripture teaches that Christ died for the whole world. All means all to me not just the elect.

Irresistible Grace
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This I just am not sure about one way or the other. I can't say I agree with it.

Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return. I can't say I agree with this position. I actually think if I choose to walk away and deny God, I can;t see how he would still save me.

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

I didn't intend on writting all this but one needs to see where folks get the once saved always saved idea. It stems out of Calvinism. Some groups that are reformed such as Presbyterians and reformed baptists would believe in all 5 points. So they are know as 5 point calvinists. Some groups hold to the first, second, and fifth points like most baptists but not all. So you see once saved always saved line of thought comes out of this calvininistic theology.

One question I think could be interesting on here to discuss is this: Lets say an adult who has never heard the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is told the gospel and he then believes what initiates this new faith? Was it the hearing of the gospel? Was it God choosing him to be saved before the foundations of the earth? Was it all of the mans doing because he wanted to believe and have faith? Does he now believe because he was afraid of hell and did not want to go there? How does the spark of faith come?

 

[Memento Mori]

And that somehow alludes to another dimension called purgatory?

How can you take something so vague and make such a giant leap towards a place called purgatory?

Hi Parogar,

As this is the Lutheran subforum I'm not going to make an argument for purgatory being real. But for the sake of your understanding, I will say that Catholicism and Protestantism have very different ways of thinking. Catholics believe the faith is handed down through the Tradition of the Church. We believe Scripture is the inspired word of God, but because we don't believe the New Testament was written to be an exhaustive catechism, we're not fazed when a doctrine isn't clearly spelled out in Scripture.

So we didn't "build" the doctrine of purgatory on one or two biblical references; we believe the doctrine has been taught since the age of the apostles, and when we offer scriptural references, it's not so much prooftexting as it is showing where a "hint" of the actual teaching might be.

 

[Parogar]

Hi Parogar,

As this is the Lutheran subforum I'm not going to make an argument for purgatory being real. But for the sake of your understanding, I will say that Catholicism and Protestantism have very different ways of thinking. Catholics believe the faith is handed down through the Tradition of the Church. We believe Scripture is the inspired word of God, but because we don't believe the New Testament was written to be an exhaustive catechism, we're not fazed when a doctrine isn't clearly spelled out in Scripture.

So we didn't "build" the doctrine of purgatory on one or two biblical references; we believe the doctrine has been taught since the age of the apostles, and when we offer scriptural references, it's not so much prooftexting as it is showing where a "hint" of the actual teaching might be.

That doesn't make any sense. So if you're saying that faith is "handed down by the church", then you're saying that someone who doesn't attend your church can't find Christ? That it's not Christ who is giving the faith? It's you guys at the church?

This kind of self-important hogwash is exactly the reason why I dislike the Catholic church in the first place. It's about putting the importance in people and not in God.

Also, what happens in the event of a war if all the churches are destroyed? In this hypothetical situation, since there is no more church, there can be no more faith? The bible and the word of God are not enough to form and rebuild a new church?

Based on what you're saying, the answer is no.

But I'd like to think that Jesus is SO GREAT that he can save us without needing to go through a political organization first and get their "permission."

A man stranded on a desert island ought to be able to be saved if he puts his faith in Christ. Based on what Catholics say, this impossible.

 

[Memento Mori]

Oh boy. You have some misconceptions, sir, and I don't think you understood my post. (I don't mean that spitefully - Catholicism is very often misunderstood.) I would love to clear them up if you would allow me to quote your post and open a new thread in the Catholic subforum, but I don't want to do so here in the Lutheran subforum, as I believe it would violate the rules.

 

[WisdomTree]

Oh boy. You have some misconceptions, sir, and I don't think you understood my post. (I don't mean that spitefully - Catholicism is very often misunderstood.) I would love to clear them up if you would allow me to quote your post and open a new thread in the Catholic subforum, but I don't want to do so here in the Lutheran subforum, as I believe it would violate the rules.

The Lutherans here are generally friendly, so long as you are only explaining and don't openly condemn or do anything silly by breaking this section's rules, I think you should be fine.

 

[saintboniface]

Basically, I don't understand how you can claim to think God is this amazing being of infinite power so great that we can't even conceive of it, then WHAT gives people the idea that we can "buy" our way into his grace?

Grace is a free gift given to all men by God. I think you have a particular church in mind when you say "the idea that we buy our way into his grace." For your information, that Church does not teach that men can buy grace or perform works to obtain grace.

The question arises, why does Saint Paul ramble on about sins that will exclude a man from eternal life? Why doesn't he simply say have faith alone? Not doing these evil things is a work.

Or, are you saying that those who truly believe that Jesus is the Lord never commit any sins? So anyone who has stolen, reviled, or coveted during his life must not really have faith in Christ?

 

[Parogar]

Grace is a free gift given to all men by God. I think you have a particular church in mind when you say "the idea that we buy our way into his grace." For your information, that Church does not teach that men can buy grace or perform works to obtain grace.

The question arises, why does Saint Paul ramble on about sins that will exclude a man from eternal life? Why doesn't he simply say have faith alone? Not doing these evil things is a work.

Or, are you saying that those who truly believe that Jesus is the Lord never commit any sins? So anyone who has stolen, reviled, or coveted during his life must not really have faith in Christ?

I'm not saying any of those things. What I'm saying is that, if the bible is true, then God is perfect. And he doesn't need anything from us. There's nothing we could ever do that would be good enough for him. After all, what can an imperfect being POSSIBLY do that would be "good enough" to satisfy an actual GOD.

No, the bible is clear on this issue: the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ .<--Period. Full stop. There's no "but" or "if" or "as long as."

Faith in Jesus Christ is the way to salvation.

Not Faith in Jesus Christ + a little extra on the side in the form of good deeds.

If works were required to get into heaven, then no one would ever know if they'd done enough. What if someone lives 99 years and on their 100th birthday, they finally realize Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior? And then they accept him and die one day later.

Clearly, that person has not done their "work" to get into heaven. Are you suggesting that Jesus can't save this person because he didn't do enough?

 

[ContraMundum]

Here in Finland, we don't have a "Roman Catholic Bible" or a "Eastern Orthodox Bible" or a "Evangelical Lutheran Bible". Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran Christians all use the same Finnish and Swedish translations of the Bible, which contain the Deuterocanonical books including the said Maccabees. As noted, it most emphatically is not about "Catholics adding stuff to the Bible".

Again, another reason to show that the Finnish Church has its act together on many things.

 

[saintboniface]

I'm not saying any of those things. What I'm saying is that, if the bible is true, then God is perfect. And he doesn't need anything from us. There's nothing we could ever do that would be good enough for him. After all, what can an imperfect being POSSIBLY do that would be "good enough" to satisfy an actual GOD.

No, the bible is clear on this issue: the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ .<--Period. Full stop. There's no "but" or "if" or "as long as."

Faith in Jesus Christ is the way to salvation.

Not Faith in Jesus Christ + a little extra on the side in the form of good deeds.

If works were required to get into heaven, then no one would ever know if they'd done enough. What if someone lives 99 years and on their 100th birthday, they finally realize Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior? And then they accept him and die one day later.

Clearly, that person has not done their "work" to get into heaven. Are you suggesting that Jesus can't save this person because he didn't do enough?

You say we can't be good enough to satisfy God because he is infinitely great. I agree he is infinitely great, but I note that Jesus often said of those he was satisfied with - "my good and faithful servant."

There are numerous passages from the bible that show that God expects more than faith. For example:

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jesus doesn't say a word about believing - only about doing (only about works). You can't read this passage any other way. The same thing goes about not sinning (which are also works). Why do Jesus and Paul spend so much time talking about avoiding sin if avoiding sin is not required for salvation?

 

[saintboniface]

If works were required to get into heaven, then no one would ever know if they'd done enough. What if someone lives 99 years and on their 100th birthday, they finally realize Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior? And then they accept him and die one day later.

Clearly, that person has not done their "work" to get into heaven. Are you suggesting that Jesus can't save this person because he didn't do enough?

"With fear and trembling work out your salvation."

There is a parable told by Jesus in which the master pays the same wage to all workers even though some started working late in the day and others at the beginning of the day. Purgatory could solve the justice/fairness of the matter.

 

[Parogar]

"With fear and trembling work out your salvation."

There is a parable told by Jesus in which the master pays the same wage to all workers even though some started working late in the day and others at the beginning of the day. Purgatory could solve the justice/fairness of the matter.

The world, for all its splendor, is a dark, wicked place. In the holocaust, the nazis would pry babies from their mothers arms and throw them directly into the fires because they did not wish to waste money on gassing them.

Today, in North Korea, people are executed simply for believing in Jesus. In fact, 80 people were executed in North Korea in 2013 just for HAVING a bible.

What's my point in all of this? That people (in my opinion) are way, way, way, way, too far gone, as a whole, to have our good deeds pay off the debt of our sin, or to even make the slightest dent in it.

I don't believe that good works are required to get into heaven, because to do so would demean God.

If good works were required to get into heaven, then it would make heaven seem cheap. The weight of human sin is so steep and insurmountable that even a lifetime of good deeds would amount to a single grain of sand on a beach the size of a planet.

To offer this single grain of sand to God and have him say, "That is payment enough", to me, cheapens God and makes God out to be lesser.

It also cheapens Jesus's sacrifice that we, we disgusting, vile, and downright hideous creatures do not even remotely deserve to go to heaven. All of us: all of us deserve to go to hell.

And yet we don't. Because even though the weight of sin bears down on us with all the force of a collapsing star, Jesus chooses to forgive us anyway.

THAT, is sacrifice (in my opinion).

And for this reason, I simply cannot believe that any sort of "good deeds" would matter to a God who has seen what we have done to each other.