Why Do Catholics

[steve_bakr]

the dead know nothing...

so how do you reconcile your view of them "praying for you in heaven"

please explain

We believe that Salvation through Jesus Christ leads to Everlasting Life. We believe that there is more to this life; that for the redeemed there is Eternal Life with God after physical death. Therefore the departed Saints of God are in Heaven this very moment, and they are very aware of what is happening in our lives on Earth. Not only that; they pray on our behalf and work even more ardently in Heaven than they did while on Earth.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

 

[IOWLBNIF]

We believe that Salvation through Jesus Christ leads to Everlasting Life. We believe that there is more to this life; that for the redeemed there is Eternal Life with God after physical death. Therefore the departed Saints of God are in Heaven this very moment, and they are very aware of what is happening in our lives on Earth. Not only that; they pray on our behalf and work even more ardently in Heaven than they did while on Earth.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Being given everlasting life and "knowing what is happening in the earthly world"


are 2 very different things..............One has nothing to do with the other....



SO again,


How do you reconcile the dead not knowing anything, to people in heaven "knowing something" and "praying" for you.......


Your dodging and your not explaining the verse im taking out of "context"


or your just continuing with your own agenda......



so ill ask again



please explain

 

[VolRaider]

It always fascinates me how people say that Catholics worship Mary and the Pope even though Catholics say they do not. Please guys, read their words - they...do...NOT....worship....Mary....and....the...Pope.

 

[Albion]

It always fascinates me how people say that Catholics worship Mary and the Pope even though Catholics say they do not. Please guys, read their words - they...do...NOT....worship....Mary....and....the...Pope.

It's not very often that one hears it claimed that Catholics worship the Pope.

Our discussions do, however, sometimes turn on what the meaning of "worship" is; and the issue is further complicated by the fact that Catholics DO describe their veneration of the saints as a kind of worship, just not the same kind of worship that they approach God with.

Obviously then, who is worshipped and what worship consists of is not something that's not going to be settled by a simple 'yes' or' no.'

Catholics do the same thing in reverse with the beliefs and practices of Protestants that they find upsetting, and I tend to think that if they don't mention it, we don't get the chance to change any minds.

 

[steve_bakr]

Being given everlasting life and "knowing what is happening in the earthly world"

are 2 very different things..............One has nothing to do with the other....

SO again,

How do you reconcile the dead not knowing anything, to people in heaven "knowing something" and "praying" for you.......

Your dodging and your not explaining the verse im taking out of "context"

or your just continuing with your own agenda......

so ill ask again

please explain

Why wouldn't those in Heaven be aware of things on Earth?

 

[steve_bakr]

It's not very often that one hears it claimed that Catholics worship the Pope.

Our discussions do, however, sometimes turn on what the meaning of "worship" is; and the issue is further complicated by the fact that Catholics DO describe their veneration of the saints as a kind of worship, just not the same kind of worship that they approach God with.

Obviously then, who is worshipped and what worship consists of is not something that's not going to be settled by a simple 'yes' or' no.'

Catholics do the same thing in reverse with the beliefs and practices of Protestants that they find upsetting, and I tend to think that if they don't mention it, we don't get the chance to change any minds.

I am not aware that we call our veneration of the Saints as a "type of worship."

 

[Needing_Grace]

It's not very often that one hears it claimed that Catholics worship the Pope.

Our discussions do, however, sometimes turn on what the meaning of "worship" is; and the issue is further complicated by the fact that Catholics DO describe their veneration of the saints as a kind of worship, just not the same kind of worship that they approach God with.

Not really. Latria is the unique worship and adoration reserved for God alone. Dulia is the honor and reverence that are rendered to the saints and hyperdulia is a special kind of reverence reserved for the Blessed (by God) Virgin Mary. Using the cosmos as a guide, we see that dulia and hyperdulia are similar (differ in degree only) while latria is another thing altogether Thus: Dulia would be the Sun to Hyperdulia's Sirius and Latria would be the universe, which is 13ish billion LY in radius and comprimes a lot more than hydrogen fusing into heavier elements.

See the difference? A vast difference.

Obviously then, who is worshipped and what worship consists of is not something that's not going to be settled by a simple 'yes' or' no.'

It's that both/and thing.

Catholics do the same thing in reverse with the beliefs and practices of Protestants that they find upsetting, and I tend to think that if they don't mention it, we don't get the chance to change any minds.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Needing_Grace]

I am not aware that we call our veneration of the Saints as a "type of worship."

Some older books might, but that's because worship does not necessarily mean adoration. Worship comes from worth-ship from a time before we understand that all men are equal. One would show worth-ship to their "betters."

Remember Latin Rite Catholicism was steeped in Italian culture and superstition for a large part of its history. Honestly, looking at my 1962 Missal, one wonders if a prerequisite to become a saint is to from somewhere in Italy.

Nowadays, have a different understanding but the word remains.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Albion]

I am not aware that we call our veneration of the Saints as a "type of worship."

Steve, as I recall it was you who was explaining it only a little while ago.

If not, many others have done so.

 

[Albion]

Some older books might, but that's because worship does not necessarily mean adoration. Worship comes from worth-ship from a time before we understand that all men are equal. One would show worth-ship to their "betters."

Remember Latin Rite Catholicism was steeped in Italian culture and superstition for a large part of its history. Honestly, looking at my 1962 Missal, one wonders if a prerequisite to become a saint is to from somewhere in Italy.

Nowadays, have a different understanding but the word remains.

It's a challenge keeping up with the changes that "the church that never changes" has made, isn't it?

Thanks for your reply. IMO it puts to rest VolRaider's idea that this is such a simple issue that it can be settled with a word or two.

 

[Needing_Grace]

It's a challenge keeping up with the changes that "the church that never changes" has made, isn't it?

Doctrine/dogma changes not but our understanding of these things does. It's called development. Look at the history of Christology and you'll see it.

As to practice, unlike our Jewish brethren, we don't have a specific set of instructions to lay out our format...unless that big, important meal the Jesus had with the Apostles counts. At any rate, the one Church has many expressions but it's centered around a core of unchanging dogma and morals.

As to practices regarding petitioning saints for their prayers, the Latin Rite of the Church has one set of practices but there are other Rites where the practice is different. The core remains.

Thanks for your reply. IMO it puts to rest VolRaider's idea that this is such a simple issue that it can be settled with a word or two.

Actually, changing either/or to both/and and most of the arguments become moot.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Albion]

Doctrine/dogma changes not but our understanding of these things does. It's called development. Look at the history of Christology and you'll see it.

I know. Use a different word and almost anything can be denied. Maybe the next time Protestants are criticized for having a range of beliefs, we should just say "No problem. It's development, not a difference."

 

[steve_bakr]

I know. Use a different word and almost anything can be denied. Maybe the next time Protestants are criticized for having a range of beliefs, we should just say "No problem. It's development, not a difference."

I am not aware that we have been criticizing Protestants here. But with respect to the understanding of the Christian faith, there is a development there. Each generation presents a new challenge with its cultural and social issues which causes us to examine our understanding of the Christian faith and how that faith applies to those issues. As Needing_Grace points out, the core of that faith remains the same. But as the CCC says, Everything was not fully revealed in the first century, and it is for the Christian faith to realize its full implications over the course of the centuries. Even Jesus said that there was more to be revealed by the Holy Spirit after he was to leave his disciples and rejoin his Father. So, development theology comes straight from the Gospel.

We don't need to interject a Catholic versus Protestant scenario. We live in the post-Reformation era, and we can acknowledge what is good in both traditions. Although this thread was started as a Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic view of the Saints, there is always the possibility that something beneficial can emerge from it, new understanding realized, and misconceptions resolved.

 

[WisdomTree]

I am not aware that we have been criticizing Protestants here. But with respect with to the understanding of the Christian faith, there is a development there. Each generation presents a new challenge with its cultural and social issues which causes us to examine our understanding of the Christian faith and how that faith applies to those issues. As Needing_Grace points out, the core of that faith remains the same. But as the CCC says, Everything was not fully revealed in the first century, and it is for the Christian faith to realize its full implications over the course of the centuries. Even Jesus said that there was more to be revealed by the Holy Spirit after he was to leave his disciples and rejoin his Father. So, development theology comes straight from the Gospel.

We don't need to interject a Catholic versus Protestant scenario. We live in the post-Reformation era, and we can acknowledge what is good in both traditions. Although this thread was started as a Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic view of the Saints, there is always the possibility that something beneficial can emerge from it, new understanding realized, and misconceptions resolved.

Amen

 

[Albion]

I am not aware that we have been criticizing Protestants here.

Then you have not been reading the same posts that we have.

But as the CCC says, Everything was not fully revealed in the first century, and it is for the Christian faith to realize its full implications over the course of the centuries.

Which includes renouncing positions taken earlier. A reversal usually isn't described as development.

Even Jesus said that there was more to be revealed by the Holy Spirit after he was to leave his disciples and rejoin his Father. So, development theology comes straight from the Gospel.

Excuse me, but Jesus did not leave a blank check so that church leaders could invent any doctrine they fancied, change it later, and attribute it all to him.

 

[2CentsEach]

Jesus didn't leave open spaces in doctrine to be filled by the church. No, He only said that we will do greater works than He with the power of the Holy Spirit

 

[steve_bakr]

We believe that the Holy Spirit still speaks to the Church and through the Church. As Jesus said about the role of the Holy Spirit: "He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." John 16:14.

 

[steve_bakr]

Then you have not been reading the same posts that we have.

Which includes renouncing positions taken earlier. A reversal usually isn't described as development.

Excuse me, but Jesus did not leave a blank check so that church leaders could invent any doctrine they fancied, change it later, and attribute it all to him.

I don't know how development theology renounces earlier positions. And we don't believe Jesus left a blank check either; that is an exageration. But we do believe that the Holy Spirit continues to be active in his Church and, as Jesus said, to make things known. BTW, We can work to understand and respect each other's positions.

 

[2CentsEach]

We believe that the Holy Spirit still speaks to the Church and through the Church. As Jesus said about the role of the Holy Spirit: "He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." John 16:14.

Adding doctrine to the Bible kind of explains a lot about where some denominations are today.

What happens when what the Holy Spirit supposedly "teaches" one person conflicts with what He "teaches" another person?

Stick to the Bible, its the only thing Jesus said we should do (keep His commandments).

 

[Albion]

Adding doctrine to the Bible kind of explains a lot about where some denominations are today.

What happens when what the Holy Spirit supposedly "teaches" one person conflicts with what He "teaches" another person?

That's the most important insight as concerns addng new doctrines to the Bible's teachings. The people who claim to have had an exclusive revelation from the Holy Spirit can be doing so because of a church, like the Mormons who believe it happens to every member, or because they think they don't need one at all because they have a personal pipeline to God. Some of them come onto CF to tell us that the Bible is all wrong because they've just gotten the real story straight from the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what happens when the tie to Holy Scripture is cast away.