Why Do Catholics

2CentsEach · Jun 28, 2012

Without a frame of reference (which was supposed to be the Bible) as final authority of what doctrine is accepted, some person has to decide what is correct or not between different doctrines. So they select some person and apoint him above them, calls him father, and allows him to dictate whas is Christianity and what not. I don't think Jesus died so we can implement a system like that

Needing_Grace · Jun 28, 2012

steve_bakr said:
Albion,

And knowing they are alive, it also surprises me when folks refer to them as the dead. Sure, we all must pass through physical death, but the emphasis of our Christian hope is in what the Apostles' Creed calls "life everlasting." When we talk about the "Communion of Saints," we mean those saints on Earth and in Heaven. We believe that the Saints in Heaven are actively participating in the Body of Christ. That is why, at the end of the general confession, we say, "I ask Mary, Ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God."

I love the confiteor. The old version was even more *Catholic.*.

"I confess to Almighty God, blessed Mary, ever-virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and you Father (brethren), that I have sinned exceeding in thought, word and deed. Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault (this is the famous "mea culpa"). I therefore ask blessed Mary, ever-virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul and you, Father (brethren), to pray for me to the Lord our God."

Good times at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass!

Sent from my iPhone using CF

Trogool · Jun 28, 2012

2CentsEach said:
Adding doctrine to the Bible kind of explains a lot about where some denominations are today.

What happens when what the Holy Spirit supposedly "teaches" one person conflicts with what He "teaches" another person?

Stick to the Bible, its the only thing Jesus said we should do (keep His commandments).

Great, so what exactly did the early Christians do before the Bible was created?

Needing_Grace · Jun 28, 2012

Trogool said:
Great, so what exactly did the early Christians do before the Bible was created?

Id think that there would have been some sort of authority to clear up questions when they arose.

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Albion · Jun 28, 2012

Needing_Grace said:
I love the confiteor. The old version was even more *Catholic.*.

Ah yes. Those were the days.

BTW, I was just reading a Roman Catholic publication that was complaining--or musing--about the fact that neither theologians nor laity know what the Eucharist means post Vatican II or is supposed to mean.

Ashlantal · Jun 28, 2012

Trogool said:
Great, so what exactly did the early Christians do before the Bible was created?

They still followed the scriptures ......

christseeker45 · Jun 28, 2012

Dpiiiius said:
They still followed the scriptures ......

Let me see before Scriptures they followed Scriptures

Ashlantal · Jun 28, 2012

christseeker45 said:
Let me see before Scriptures they followed Scriptures

The Old Testament, genius. Which is in accordance w/ the NT .

VolRaider · Jun 28, 2012

Albion said:
It's not very often that one hears it claimed that Catholics worship the Pope.

Our discussions do, however, sometimes turn on what the meaning of "worship" is; and the issue is further complicated by the fact that Catholics DO describe their veneration of the saints as a kind of worship, just not the same kind of worship that they approach God with.

Obviously then, who is worshipped and what worship consists of is not something that's not going to be settled by a simple 'yes' or' no.'

Catholics do the same thing in reverse with the beliefs and practices of Protestants that they find upsetting, and I tend to think that if they don't mention it, we don't get the chance to change any minds.

I've heard that Catholics worship the Pope on numerous occasions. Of course, I live in the Bible Belt. Many "Christians" down here also think Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are headed further south due to all that "drankin."

christseeker45 · Jun 28, 2012

Dpiiiius said:
The Old Testament, genius. Which is in accordance w/ the NT .

Well genius how does Bible only fit into that

ViaCrucis · Jun 28, 2012

2CentsEach said:
Without a frame of reference (which was supposed to be the Bible) as final authority of what doctrine is accepted, some person has to decide what is correct or not between different doctrines. So they select some person and apoint him above them, calls him father, and allows him to dictate whas is Christianity and what not. I don't think Jesus died so we can implement a system like that

Even with Scripture as our final appeal (that's what Sola Scriptura is supposed to be about) we still are in need of the consensus of the Faithful. We say that Scripture is greater than Tradition, we cannot say that we, as individuals, are greater than Tradition. I, as a Christian, am subject to Sacred Scripture and the faith confessed and received down through the ages.

For example: When Luther argued against the abuses of indulgences, as well as the broader theology of indulgences and argued that justification was grace alone through faith alone he saw himself as speaking out from the ancient and historic witness of the Church, not against it. For Luther, the theology he opposed he saw as recent innovation, a product of the medieval period; not as the faith confessed and proclaimed since the Apostles and ancient Fathers.

Luther and the other Reformers lamented the every-man-for-himself style of interpretation that the more radical elements of the Reformation was fostering. The Bible is not mine to interpret on my own, it the role of the Church in community to receive and confess Scripture within the context of the Christian faith faithfully delivered and passed on to us. Reform is necessary when we have strayed, but it is not our place to reinvent Christianity to our own liking according to our own personal whims.

-CryptoLutheran

Ashlantal · Jun 28, 2012

christseeker45 said:
Well genius how does Bible only fit into that

OBVIOUSLY the entire Bible wasn't written yet seeing as how we're talking about DURING the time of the NT ... Jesus followed & studied the OT, therefore the followers of Jesus followed Jesus himself and the OT ...

steve_bakr · Jun 28, 2012

Albion said:
Ah yes. Those were the days.

BTW, I was just reading a Roman Catholic publication that was complaining--or musing--about the fact that neither theologians nor laity know what the Eucharist means post Vatican II or is supposed to mean.

Which publication?

bobsterInJapan · Jun 28, 2012

Luke 11:27 - 28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

This doesn't say much for Mary's status, does it. Those who hear the word of God and obey it are the ones who are blessed.

christseeker45 · Jun 28, 2012

Dpiiiius said:
OBVIOUSLY the entire Bible wasn't written yet seeing as how we're talking about DURING the time of the NT ... Jesus followed & studied the OT, therefore the followers of Jesus followed Jesus himself and the OT ...

So they could not follow the whole Scripture because it was not there. Sola Scriptura does not work there

ViaCrucis · Jun 28, 2012

bobsterInJapan said:
Luke 11:27 - 28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

This doesn't say much for Mary's status, does it. Those who hear the word of God and obey it are the ones who are blessed.

The Greek μενοῦν isn't more of a positive then a negative; that is it doesn't deny the former thought, but rather adds greater thought to the former.

The relevant word underlined and bold in the following passages:

"But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord..." - Philippians 3:7-8

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' [Indeed] who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'" - Romans 9:19-20

"But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.'" - Romans 10:18

Now let's look again at Luke 11:28

"But He said, 'Blessed indeed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'"

The language is not denying the blessedness of Mary, but rather extends the blessedness to those who hear the word of God and keep it. Yes, blessed is the womb of Mary in whom Christ God dwelt; but also blessed are those who receive the word which Christ is preaching.

-CryptoLutheran

Theofane · Jun 28, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
Ok then why do they worship

Pope John Paul.....a mere man

It's important to remember that he is just a man.

bobsterInJapan · Jun 28, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
Now let's look again at Luke 11:28

"But He said, 'Blessed indeed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'"

The language is not denying the blessedness of Mary, but rather extends the blessedness to those who hear the word of God and keep it. Yes, blessed is the womb of Mary in whom Christ God dwelt; but also blessed are those who receive the word which Christ is preaching.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed. But is "the blessing to those who hear the word of God" an extension of (inferior) blessedness of Mary? I don't think so. If that Greek term is adding to the blessing expressed in regard to Mark, this blessing must at least be as significant as Mary's.

There is another verse (and how better to interpret scripture than with scripture itself) where Jesus says, "who is my brother, my sister and my mother?" and then "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:48-50 So, although Mary was indeed blessed to have been the woman through which the Savior was born, her status is no greater than you or me.

So, all this worshiping of Mary business is rather inappropriate, let alone unbiblical.

christseeker45 · Jun 28, 2012

That's good because no one worships Mary

bobsterInJapan · Jun 29, 2012

christseeker45 said:
That's good because no one worships Mary

Well that's good news.

What do Catholic do with Mary then? Pray to her?

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