Why do Calvinists....

[GodsElect]

I am still looking into this very question. I have seen some verses that say that those who fall away from the body cannot be returned to the body. I cannot find those verses right off the top of my head (Biblegateway search). Dang it! Anyway, it is a question that I am not prepared to answer until I have found those verses and prayerfully studied them in context.

Blessings to you.

If you could lose your salvation, That would be like God having you in the palm of His hand and then DROPPING YOU! What kind of Great Shepard would lose one of His sheep.

 

[GodsElect]

Here is a piece of scripture that you might want to take a look at concerning assured salvation and even the elect.

Jesus says....

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

"This is the will of the Father" Stating that this is His Father's will, His sovereign and unchangable will.

"All He has given Me" Referring to the chosen, the elect, and not ALL men but those who have been appointed to eternal life.

"I should lose nothing" This very statement assures us of salvation as children of God. He shall lose NONE.

 

[Boxmaker]

Here is a piece of scripture that you might want to take a look at concerning assured salvation and even the elect.

Jesus says....

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

"This is the will of the Father" Stating that this is His Father's will, His sovereign and unchangable will.

"All He has given Me" Referring to the chosen, the elect, and not ALL men but those who have been appointed to eternal life.

"I should lose nothing" This very statement assures us of salvation as children of God. He shall lose NONE.

This is why I am studying it:

Hebrew 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

justification by faith. Theology. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

So let me pose my question this way…How are we justified? Of course you know that answer from your quotes above. But if you need, or other visitors need more hints…Who is the book of Job about?...Job or JESUS? OK…who is the book of Jonah about? Jonah or JESUS? So then who is the book of John about? John or JESUS? Surely you get the point…Who is the bible about?...JESUS…so how are we Justified? So are we 99% justified or 99.999% or 100%? 100% satisfaction is the requirement necessary to be 100% justified free from Gods righteous judgment due us for our sin. So how much response does God need from us to accomplish His justification? NONE… It’s done, in the past. When was this completed? Answer…In Gods eternal plan before the foundation of the world accomplished in Christ on the cross making justification effectual or actual and actually applying it by grace (unmerited favor), justifying all the Elect…not guilty (even though we are guilty for our sin/evil even for today), not merely providing an opportunity or chance for everyone to be saved conditionally upon their response, decision, acceptance, baptism, hail marys, free-will triple flips and double dips…you get the picture.

This is what the problem is in the modern day (arminian) church, the gospel they call it is…Jesus is just holding out His hand to everyone and only if you will do your part, take that step, open your heart…then Jesus will save you, it’s your choice, the opportunity is there. This is not good news…this is bad news…for who wants to do anything to be saved? But if you do “want” to be saved, then you may be being drawn by God, and justification has been effectually applied and you may be among the elect. I say “may be” among the elect for a reason (will pick up more in sanctification)…because when one makes a claim that they had to do any part of their justification/salvation, then they make the grace of God void for now it is works that they are saved, their works instead of trusting the finished work of Christ on the cross as their justification. In other words they take some type of credit for their salvation, again, ie. response, decision, acceptance, baptism, hail marys, free-will triple flips and double dips . (The flesh profits everything, yet the scripture says the flesh profit nothing)
But historically the church, deduced from scripture alone, is that Justification (now I’m really going to mess you up) is a work. But it is a work outside of your self accomplished by someone else in your place…you guessed it…the Lord Jesus Christ’s work…a perfect work, not 99%, but 100% pleasing the Father for us. This is the good news of the gospel.

Your very quote…

Yes, we are justified by faith alone through grace alone. It is the work of Jesus as in Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

This is the good news of the gospel.

But let me back up to (will pick up more in sanctification).

Sanctification or in its verb form, sanctify, literally means to set apart for special use or purpose, that is to make holy or sacred. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit after we have been justified as in 2 Thessalonians 2:13[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

So if you are justified, it is the “Lord who works in you both to will and do for His good pleasure” of which you are “called to make your calling & election sure”, “to work out your own salvation with fear & trembling”, meaning to make sure you are worshipping the One True God, in Spirit & Truth, choosing to die to self /sin daily, bearing your cross daily (witnessing because of the love you have for the Triune God and Father, not just being loving or friendly or trying to be nicer than Jesus, and being persecuted for your faithful witness to those in darkness), and following him daily, properly studying your bible for understanding in truth and not according to what you would like for it to say or mean, especially where there seem to be contradictions and where there are those scriptures that are hard to understand, private & corporate worship, personal devotion to Him in prayer and meditation, again for knowledge in the truth, rebuking, admonishing, correcting, hating sin…your own and others, faithful confession of our sin and repentance for offending our Holy Father blaspheming His Holy name by sinful thoughts, words and deeds, fighting our selfishness, pride, self will, haughtiness, trusting in Him alone for all our needs, being humbled by His majesty, power, might and holiness of which we fall so very short of, attending all of these means of grace, and I could go on and on here, so lets say the whole of day to day Christian experience as taught, deduced, implied and received throughout the scriptures…yet your will would not desire to do any of these sanctifying works unless you have been justified, thus by faith (which is also the gift if God, not something worked up from with-in your self) through grace you have been saved not by works least any man should boast…all ordained from the foundation of the world that you should do them, giving Him all the glory from predestination to election to our calling to regeneration to illumination to justification to sanctification to glorification. All in all, He does it all in us and is the reason for our response, decision, acceptance, choice, belief, faith, thus a faith without works is dead. Or the elect (justified) work because they are saved, not to be saved. But the apostate works (sanctifies himself) to be saved and usually apostatizes (only going through the motions of Christianity for what ever reason, or deceiving himself to be a true believer).
The modern day arminian church teaches one to be sanctified (many unwittingly) then God responds (Justifies) but as scripture teaches God justifies then we respond and sanctifies. Don’t get me wrong here, it is our work, yet it is He who works in us to work.
So where does the decision begin? And whose decision is it? Who gets all the glory? Or does God get 99% of the glory. Will ones 1% be their boast? Will the free-will decision makers stand in their 1 % righteousness so proud of their great ability, when it was God who formed their every ability? Does Michael Jordan get all the credit for his accomplishments, did he stretch his feet to a size 15, did he make his own legs so he make a twisting dunk form half court? Or did God not plan His destiny, both here on earth and eternally? Can we think we can take any credit for anything in ourselves?

Is the difference in our beliefs enough to send one of us to hell and the other to heaven?

Well it’s like this…

1. If your current (arminian) understanding of salvation is correct, and the calvinist position is incorrect, then your going to heaven and we are going to hell. That should concern you for me as you are to love your neighbor as yourself, so from scripture, prove your position to be true.

2. If the calvinist position is correct and the arminian position is incorrect, then you are going to hell and I’m going to heaven. That should concern me for you as I am to love my neighbor as myself, so from scripture, we prove our position to be true.

3. We could both be wrong, so we’re both going to hell and that should concern us both for each other, as we are commanded to love each other as ourselves.

4. But we both can’t be right. So the difference is Heaven and Hell.

So all this should cause more questions like…If God elected some, then wouldn’t that mean He didn’t elect others? But if Christ died for all men then doesn’t all mean all as in every man ever or does it mean all as in all types of men throughout all types of generations of man forever. How does one know he is elect? And how does one know for sure he is born again? Am I making my calling and election sure? Do I really fear God, then why do I choose (Freely) to sin? Am I really trusting the finished work of Christ or just thinking and am trusting myself, thus deceiving myself? How do I know I’m not an apostate?

WWWwwwhhhhheeeeewwwwww! The fear of the Lord is the 1st step to wisdom. Do you fear HIM?
FreeInChrist2
PS. Have you ever read the Westminster Confession of Faith?

 

[GodsElect]

This is why I am studying it:

Hebrew 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hey boxmaker, Here, I think this might help explain that passage.
Yes, many who believe people who are children of God can lose there salvation use that passage in Hebrews. The Key is in the context of the following passages 7,8, and even after that.

It's a lengthy read but very important!

[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 6:4-6[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and the Possibility of Apostasy[/FONT]​

This is undoubtedly one of the most controversial and frequently debated passages in all of Scripture. It would not be going too far to say that those who believe a genuine believer can forfeit (or lose) his/her salvation appeal to this passage more often than any other. Read the passage closely.

Who are these people who “have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away”? It is important for us to know because “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.”

There are probably a dozen or more interpretive options of this passage that may be found in the commentaries and journal literature. It isn’t my purpose to interact with them here. Rather, I am focusing solely on the question of whether the terminology in vv. 4-5 would lead us to conclude that these individuals were born-again, justified, believers.

Are these born-again Christian men and women? If so, the doctrine of eternal security is shattered. Or is it possible for a person to experience some form of spiritual “enlightenment” and to “taste” spiritual blessings and to “partake” of the Holy Spirit and yet never know Jesus in a saving way? I believe the answer to this latter question is Yes. Let me begin by giving six reasons from the book of Hebrews itself why these people are not born-again believers who have apostatized.

First, the situation described in vv. 4-6 is illustrated in vv. 7-8. There we read, “For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it [this drinking of frequent rains refers to the blessings of vv. 4-5: enlightenment, partaking of the HS, tasting spiritual blessings, etc.] and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles [this corresponds to the “falling away” of v. 6a], it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”

Rain falls on all kinds of ground, but one cannot tell from that alone what kind of vegetation, if any, will appear. The picture here is not of ground that receives frequent rain, yields life and vegetation, and then loses it. The picture is of two different kinds of ground altogether. One responds to the rain [spiritual blessings and opportunities] by producing bountiful vegetation, while the other is barren, lifeless, and thus condemned. Likewise, people who hear the gospel and respond with saving faith bring forth life. Others, however, who sit in church and hear the truth and are blessed by the ministry of the HS but eventually turn their back on it all are like a field that never yields vegetation and thus comes into judgment.

As Wayne Grudem notes,

“the idea of land that once bore good fruit and now bears thorns is not compatible with this picture. The implication is this: While the positive experiences listed in verses 4-6 do not provide us enough information to know whether the people were truly saved or not, the committing of apostasy and holding Christ up to contempt do reveal the true nature of those who fall away: all along they have been like bad ground that can only bear bad fruit. If the metaphor of the thorn-bearing land explains verses 4-6 (as it surely does), then their falling away shows that they were never saved in the first place” (“Perseverance of the Saints: A Case Study from Hebrews 6:4-6 and the Other Warning Passages in Hebrews,” in Still Sovereign, Baker; 156-57).

Second, in 6:9 we read of a significant contrast: “But beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking this way.” The “better things” in view are stated in vv. 10-12, things like “work” and “love” and “ministry” and “diligence” and “full assurance of hope” and “faith” and “patience” and “inheriting the promises.” These “things” are “better” than the experiences of vv. 4-6 precisely because they “belong to” or “accompany” salvation. In other words, “the author says he is confident that most of his readers have better things than the people he described in verses 4-6, and these things are better in that his readers also have things that belong to salvation. This implies that the blessings in verses 4-6 were not things that belong to salvation” (Grudem, 159).

Before going further, let’s summarize vv. 7-12. “Verses 7-8 describe the people in verses 4-6 as unfruitful land that repeatedly bears thorns and thistles, and thus indicate that they were never saved. Verses 9-12 say that the readers, in general, have better things than the temporary experiences of vv. 4-6, and that those better things include salvation. Therefore both verses 7-8 and verse 9 indicate that the people in verses 4-6 who fell away never had salvation” (Grudem, 160).]

Third, according to Hebrews 3:14 (and 3:6), “we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” Note well: he says we “have become” partakers of Christ, not “will become” or “are now partakers,” if we persevere in faith. In other words, holding fast in faith, i.e., persevering, proves that you became a partaker of Christ in the past. Failing to hold fast, i.e., apostatizing from the faith, proves that you never were a partaker of Christ. Apostasy or falling away (6:6a) doesn’t mean you once were in and have now fallen out of partaking in Christ. It means you never were or never became a partaker in the first place.

Fourth, we read in Hebrews 10:14 that “by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” Here we are told that for those who are now being sanctified (i.e., indwelt by the HS, growing in holiness by faith) “the offering of Christ on the cross has perfected that person for all time. For all time! In other words to become a beneficiary of the perfecting, justifying work of Christ on the cross is to be perfected in the sight of God forever. This suggests that Hebrews 6:6 does not mean that those who re-crucify Christ were once really justified by the blood of Jesus and were really being sanctified in an inward spiritual sense” (John Piper, Sermon, 5).

Fifth, our author concludes this letter with a prayer relating to the fulfillment in us of the blessings of the New Covenant. He prays that God would “equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ” (13:20-21). The promise of the new and “eternal” covenant is that God will put in his people a new heart and cause them to walk in His ways and not turn away from doing them good (see Ezek. 11:19; 36:27; Jer. 24:7; 32:40). Thus, Piper concludes that....

continued...

 

[GodsElect]

....continued

“in verse 21 he says that it is not finally dependent on us whether we persevere in faith and bear fruit. It is finally dependent on God: He is working in us that which is pleasing in his sight. He is fulfilling the new covenant promise to preserve us. This means that Hebrews 6:6 would contradict the new covenant if it meant that people could be truly justified members of the new covenant and then commit apostasy and be rejected. That would mean that God did not fulfill his promise to ‘work in them what is pleasing in his sight.’ He would have broken his new covenant promise” (Piper, 5).

Sixth, we must take note not just of what is said of these people in vv. 4-6 but what is not said of them that is usually said of Christians. Typical terms used to describe believers, such as regeneration, conversion, justified, adopted, elect, faith in Jesus, are conspicuous by their absence. This is more than merely an argument from silence when we consider the way Christians are described in the book of Hebrews itself. Here is a listing of what is true of the true believer, all of which are absent from the description of those who apostatize in 6:4-6.

(1) God has forgiven their sins (10:17; 8:12)
(2) God has cleansed their consciences (9:14; 10:22)
(3) God has written his laws on their hearts (8:10; 10:16)
(4) God is producing holiness of life in them (2:11; 10:14; 13:21)
(5) God has given them an unshakable kingdom (12:28)
(6) God is pleased with them (chp. 11; 13:16,21)
(7) They have faith (4:3; 6:12; 10:22,38,39; 12:2; 13:7; etc.)
(8) They have hope (6:11,18; 7:19; 10:23)
(9) They have love (6:10; 10:33-34; 13:1)
(10) They worship and pray (12:28; 13:15; 4:16; 10:22)
(11) They obey God (5:9; 10:36; 12:10,11,14)
(12) They persevere (3:6,14; 6:11; 10:23)
(13) They enter God’s rest (4:3,11)
(14) They know God (8:11)
(15) They are God’s house, his children, his people (3:6; 2:10,13; 8:10)
(16) They share in Christ (3:14)
(17) They will receive future salvation (1:14; 7:25; 5:9; 9:28).

Someone might object by saying: “O.K., typical descriptions of the saved are not found in 6:4-6, but neither are typical descriptions of the lost found there either!” Grudem responds: “I agree that the phrases [in 6:4-6] alone do not match the author’s descriptions of the lost, and they do not indicate that these people are lost (before they commit apostasy). But that is just the point: Before they commit apostasy their spiritual status is uncertain. It remains to be seen whether they are among the saved or the lost. They have not yet given decisive indications either way. That is the reason the author warns them not to turn away – they are still at a point where a decision to be among the saved or the lost must be made” (171).

What about the terms used in 6:4-5 (enlightenment, tasting, partakers, etc.)? On the one hand, it is certainly the case that all Christians experience these realities. But do only Christians experience them? Or is it possible for these experiences also to be true of people who have been repeatedly exposed to the gospel and to the benefits it brings, yet without personally embracing the person of Christ as Lord and Savior? Let’s look at each one in turn.

They have “once been enlightened” – Have true Christians been “enlightened”? Yes. But this term need mean no more than to hear the gospel, to learn or to understand. “Certainly such intellectual understanding of the facts of the gospel is an important step toward saving faith, but it does not itself constitute the element of personal trust in Christ that is essential to faith” (Grudem, 142-43). All of us know people, perhaps family members, who have been repeatedly exposed to the truth of the gospel, understand what it means, can articulate the claims of Christ with incredible precision, yet refuse to put their trust in Him as Lord and Savior. Thus, whereas all true Christians have been enlightened, not all those who are enlightened are true Christians.

They have “tasted of the heavenly gift” and “the good word of God” and “the powers of the age to come” – This certainly points to a genuine spiritual experience. But must we conclude that it was a genuine saving experience? These are not strangers to the gospel or to the church. These are people who have come under conviction of the HS, who have experienced some degree of blessing both through common grace and through their close, intimate contact with genuine believers. Perhaps they have been healed. Perhaps a demon has been cast out. They have heard the Word of God and have come to taste and feel and enjoy something of its power and beauty and truth. They have felt the “wooing” of the HS and have seen great and wonderful things in the body of Christ. Those in Matthew 7:22-23 preached, prophesied, performed miracles, and cast out demons in Christ’s name . . . but were not saved. Jesus said to them: “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers” (v. 23). These, then, “have tasted” the power and blessings of the new covenant, but they have not personally prized, cherished, embraced, loved, trusted, treasured, or savored the atoning death of Jesus as their only hope for eternal life.

They have been made “partakers of the Holy Spirit” – Whereas the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving participation in Christ (cf. Heb. 3:14), it can also refer to a looser association or participation. See Luke 5:7; Heb. 1:9 (“comrades” or “companions&#8221. These people had in some way come to share in some aspect of the HS and his ministry. But in what way? Must we conclude that it was a “saving” way? Why does our author not use terminology that would put the question of their spiritual status to rest, such as “filled with” or “baptized in” or “indwelt by” the Holy Spirit?

They have in some sense “repented” – There is a “sorrow for sins” and a turning from them that even non-believers can experience. This is clear from Heb. 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the “repentance” of Judas Iscariot in Mt. 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” the implication being that there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief” and “faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and saving, on the one hand, and what is spurious on the other.

Wayne Grudem provides this helpful summation:

“What has happened to these people? They are at least people who have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. They have had some sorrow for sin and a decision to forsake their sin (repentance). They have clearly understood the gospel and given some assent to it (they have been enlightened). They have come to appreciate the attractiveness of the Christian life and the change that comes about in people’s lives because of becoming a Christian, and they have probably had answers to prayers in their own lives and felt the power of the Holy Spirit at work, perhaps even using some spiritual gifts (they have become ‘associated with’ the work of the Holy Spirit or have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come). They have been exposed to the true preaching of the Word and have appreciated much of its teachings (they have tasted the goodness of the Word of God). These factors are all positive, and people who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians. But these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence of any of the decisive beginning stages of the Christian life (regeneration, saving faith and repentance unto life, justification, adoption, initial sanctification). In fact, these experiences are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of the Christian life. The actual spiritual status of those who have experienced these things is still unclear” (153).

I conclude that the people described in 6:4-5 who, according to v. 6, “fall away” are not now and never were born-again believers. They are not Christians who have “lost” their salvation.

I believe the spiritual state and experience of those described in Hebrews 6:4-6 is virtually identical to that of the first three of four soils in the parable of the sower (see Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:1-9; Luke 8:4-15). In that parable, only the fourth soil is called “good” and subsequently bears fruit. The other three represent those who hear the gospel and respond with varying degrees of understanding, interest, and joy, none of which, however, bear fruit that would testify of genuine spiritual life. That is to say, they experienced “enlightenment” and “tasted” the goodness and power of the ministry of the Spirit and the blessings of the kingdom, yet turned their back on the truth when trials, troubles, or temptations came their way. Their apostasy was proof of the falsity of their initial “faith” (see esp. John 8:31; Heb. 3:6,14; 1 John 2:19).

I hope this helps Boxman! and for my other Calvinst Brothers who have been confronted with this piece of scrpiture in defending the Sovereign Grace of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is why I am studying it:

Hebrew 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Thanks for quoting this passage boxmaker , it is the best passage to disprove human autonomy (free-will) and declare repentance is a gift not a simple choice

 

[Boxmaker]

....continued
I hope this helps Boxman! and for my other Calvinst Brothers who have been confronted with this piece of scrpiture in defending the Sovereign Grace of God.

That is a good comentary. I have been looking into other sources as well and I do not believe that thses verses were intended to convey that a loss of salvation for the true believer is possible. It contridicts to much of the rest of the Gospel.

Thanks!

Gods blessing to you.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

Originally Posted by GodsElect
....continued
I hope this helps Boxman! and for my other Calvinst Brothers who have been confronted with this piece of scrpiture in defending the Sovereign Grace of God.

That is a good comentary. I have been looking into other sources as well and I do not believe that thses verses were intended to convey that a loss of salvation for the true believer is possible. It contridicts to much of the rest of the Gospel.

Thanks!

Gods blessing to you.

I agree with BoxMan...great study find GodsElect. What an awesome GOD! FreeInChrist2 Bless God U2

 

[GodsElect]

That is a good comentary. I have been looking into other sources as well and I do not believe that thses verses were intended to convey that a loss of salvation for the true believer is possible. It contridicts to much of the rest of the Gospel.

Thanks!

Gods blessing to you.

Yes, so I see that you believe that the truly saved can not, will not lose their salvation. Thus, I guess that makes you a 1 pointer calvinist so far. (perseverance of the saints) You got 4 more to go!!! LOL

God bless.

P.S. Have you read the "five points" of Calvinism with scripture proofs yet??? If not, heres a link...http://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

 

[heymikey80]

Well then, for your entertainment, here it is.
God is sovereign. He is more than capable of making things come to pass according to His will. He is the potter, we are the clay. He casts the vessels as He will.

This does not change my belief about how God cast His vessels. He cast us with the ability to choose. We do not have infinite choices available to us, but we can choose between the options available to us.

I would say we certainly do have the ability to choose, but the way we're made dictates those choices we choose by the nature of our wills.

To me that's the implication of "vessels intended for destruction", "vessels for common and honored use" in Rom 9:20ff.

I find that when you challenge peoples core beliefs i learn more about what they are. It is surprising how many people don't know why they believe what they believe.

There are other ways of finding out about things, certainly. Reformed polity specifies an organization, which is why we organize things this way. In point of fact Reformed thought is about the most cerebral theology there is. I've very rarely found Calvinists who don't know their apologetics, who aren't relatively young Calvinists.

I mentioned it earlier. Spiritual death and physical death are two different things. When I was spiritually dead God was able to show me that Life spiritual Life was available to to me. A drowning man does not need to die to know that he needs help. Once a drowning man goes down for the last time then all hope is lost. As long as I am floating (physically alive) then God can save me (make me spiritually alive).

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

OK, but this seems to be the basic problem, theologically. If you are spiritually dead, how can God show you spiritual Life is available to you? If you're dead to that life, you don't have contact with that world:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' John 3:3-7

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ... Ep 2:4-5

​

 

[Boxmaker]

OK, but this seems to be the basic problem, theologically. If you are spiritually dead, how can God show you spiritual Life is available to you? If you're dead to that life, you don't have contact with that world:

you don't have contact but that does not mean you are not aware of it. Israel wondered in the sesert for 40 years until the sinful generation dies out. They knew their was a promised land even though they never saw it. Moses saw it but was not allowed to enter.

God can easily make you aware of His Kingdom. That is what it means, at least in part, when it is said that God initiates or God draws you to Him. He is showing you that there is something better even though you can't enter what you are shown until you accept Jesus.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

How are you aware of something you're dead to? What awareness do the dead have of this world?

God can indeed make you aware -- by bringing about spiritual birth in your life.

 

[Boxmaker]

How are you aware of something you're dead to? What awareness do the dead have of this world?

God can indeed make you aware -- by bringing about spiritual birth in your life.

Its kind of like suffering from depression. Your body is alive but you are dead t life. Try as you might, you just cannot find any joy in living. You see people living life all around you, but you are unable to participate.

As long as you are alive physically, you can be aware that there is a spiritual kingdom. The Bible speaks of it. So you know God has a kingdom waiting, He even tells you haw to enter His Kingdom. That is how you can be aware of something in your physical existance that you are spiritually dead to.

 

[GodsElect]

Its kind of like suffering from depression. Your body is alive but you are dead t life.

I dont think you get what being Dead really is. It's not like suffering from depression man! YOURE DEAD. Dead people aren't depressed, their DEAD. DEAD in trespasses and sin, DEAD people can't choose anything. While born in the flesh you were DEAD in your sin and DEAD! NOT ALIVE in spirit BUT DEAD from the spirit. I dont see how you interpret DEAD in trespasses and sin as ready or capable to respond! Dead people don't respond to anything. Dead is DEAD. LIFELESS, not even comatose but DEAD! Not severely wounded or on the death bed, or alive but unresponsive but DEAD.

NO ONE is saying you didn't make a choice to choose to willingly serve God. But you were born DEAD in traspasses and sin and shapen in iniquity. Only until God ALONE gave you new life to respond positvely to His word. He took the scales off of your eyes that you would now willingly pick up the bible you once thought was "just a book" Why did I choose God? I loved my sin previously. and sometimes we still do! we fall so very short! I thought the Bible was "just a book". Why would I, who loved my sin, come to repent for it??? And feel the sorrow of a son that displeases his father. I did not care about spiritual things AT ALL! I Could not EVEN see myself going to church and worshiping! I did not WANT TO. I WAS NOT WILLING!

Why was I like this? Because I was DEAD MAN!!!!!! SPIRITUALLY DEAD!!!!! Born at emnity with God! Born in sin! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! Not DEAD and responsive but DEAD! Spiritually Lifeless!!

Why did I even become willing to change my ways and turn, and choose Christ and LIFE!? How did I become WILLING TO CHOOSE????

Because, GOD ALONE worked in my ,DEAD in spirit, heart. Gave it a new life. Showed me His truth! HE ALONE opened my heart! Outstretched His hand and I could not reject!!! I was blind but now I see! Once was Lost but now I am FOUND! I was DEAD!!!!!!!! But He ALONE made me ALIVE!!!!!!! ALL GLORY TO GOD FOR SAVING A WRETCH LIKE ME!!!

This is what the Bible means by being DEAD in trespasses and sin! DO YOU GET IT YET???????????? I pray that you do!

 

[GodsElect]

OH yeah and when you are dead in the flesh, dead in your casket, at your funeral, I am going to come up to you and say "Hey Boxman wake up....WAKE UP!..... Why aren't you RESPONDING TO ME!!!!??? I say CHOOSE TO LIVE BOXMAKER! CHOOSE LIFE MAN!! DONT BE DEAD CHOOSE TO LIVE MAN!!!!

and everyone at the funeral are going to say "YOU IDIOT!" He is DEAD!....... He cannot RESPOND TO YOU! He cannot make such a choice. He is DEAD!

 

[Boxmaker]

I dont think you get what being Dead really is. It's not like suffering from depression man! YOURE DEAD. Dead people aren't depressed, their DEAD. DEAD in trespasses and sin, DEAD people can't choose anything. While born in the flesh you were DEAD in your sin and DEAD! NOT ALIVE in spirit BUT DEAD from the spirit. I dont see how you interpret DEAD in trespasses and sin as ready or capable to respond! Dead people don't respond to anything. Dead is DEAD. LIFELESS, not even comatose but DEAD! Not severely wounded or on the death bed, or alive but unresponsive but DEAD.

NO ONE is saying you didn't make a choice to choose to willingly serve God. But you were born DEAD in traspasses and sin and shapen in iniquity. Only until God ALONE gave you new life to respond positvely to His word. He took the scales off of your eyes that you would now willingly pick up the bible you once thought was "just a book" Why did I choose God? I loved my sin previously. and sometimes we still do! we fall so very short! I thought the Bible was "just a book". Why would I, who loved my sin, come to repent for it??? And feel the sorrow of a son that displeases his father. I did not care about spiritual things AT ALL! I Could not EVEN see myself going to church and worshiping! I did not WANT TO. I WAS NOT WILLING!

Why was I like this? Because I was DEAD MAN!!!!!! SPIRITUALLY DEAD!!!!! Born at emnity with God! Born in sin! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! Not DEAD and responsive but DEAD! Spiritually Lifeless!!

Why did I even become willing to change my ways and turn, and choose Christ and LIFE!? How did I become WILLING TO CHOOSE????

Because, GOD ALONE worked in my ,DEAD in spirit, heart. Gave it a new life. Showed me His truth! HE ALONE opened my heart! Outstretched His hand and I could not reject!!! I was blind but now I see! Once was Lost but now I am FOUND! I was DEAD!!!!!!!! But He ALONE made me ALIVE!!!!!!! ALL GLORY TO GOD FOR SAVING A WRETCH LIKE ME!!!

This is what the Bible means by being DEAD in trespasses and sin! DO YOU GET IT YET???????????? I pray that you do!

I stand by what I said. There is a difference between physical death and spiritual death. While you are physically alive, God can make known to you that His kingdon awaits you. It is the first step in God's plan to draw you to Him. He lets you know that there is much a much better plan for your life if you will trust Him. When you do, you are raised from that spiritual death to life everlasting with Him.

This physical body God gave me can respond to God. He planned it that way. We have one chance in this short physical existance to come to Jesus. God made us so that we could.

 

[GodsElect]

Whatever Boxman, You just don't understand, I am praying that the ignorance be lifted off of you, so that one day you may see and understand what we mean by the hundreds of posts that have been posted to you in this thread! See ya!

Ps. Good luck presenting that magnificent choice that you have done before God. "Lord, Lord have not I made this choice? Have not I choosen YOU for my personal savior!? Have not I, I, I, I, I, I, done this for you!? GOOD LUCK TO YA!

 

[Boxmaker]

Whatever Boxman, You just don't understand, I am praying that the ignorance be lifted off of you, so that one day you may see and understand what we mean by the hundreds of posts that have been posted to you in this thread! See ya!

Ps. Good luck presenting that magnificent choice that you have done before God. "Lord, Lord have not I made this choice? Have not I choosen YOU for my personal savior!? Have not I, I, I, I, I, I, done this for you!? GOOD LUCK TO YA!

Thank you for the truely wonderful display of Christian love and concern. It was heart warming.

 

[cygnusx1]

How are you aware of something you're dead to? What awareness do the dead have of this world?

God can indeed make you aware -- by bringing about spiritual birth in your life.

must be the zombie syndrome