Why do all believers connected with "tongues".....

[AlexDTX]

Wesley Methodists according to Curtis Edwards. https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Pentecostalism-Its-Roots-Slavery/dp/1500858080

Thank you for the reference. I don't know about this book, but the title does touch something I saw first hand. That is, carnality. First, I don't agree with it being pagan, but I did see immodest dress and sensed seductive spirits.
When I came to Christ it was in the AOG in Metarie, LA pastored by Marvin Gorman. This was in 1985. Jimmy Swaggert was down the road in Baton Rouge. He had an affair with Marvin's wife, then later was caught picking up a prostitute on Airline Hwy. I left the AOG, but not for that reason. Simply because I had moved. None of that shook my faith because I realized those men did not die for my sins, and the miraculous power of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in me had nothing to do with their failures.

 

[Behold]

I think you missed my point, but it is not important.

- why be concerned with those who say you can lose your salvation?

.

Because to teach that you can lose your salvation rejects the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, and denies the Grace of God.
Jude 1 says that these people are to be exposed and resisted.
Paul says that these people are Titus 3:11, and need to be rejected.
All this kinda matters.... AlexDTX
So, if you are doing that, you are Galatians 1:8.

See, to deny in PUBLIC that the same blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved", is to blaspheme against "Grace through faith"... "justification by faith"....and "the GIFT of Righteousness".
So, its not just....."does it matter if they teach you can lose it".
Believe me, it really matters.

 

[Behold]

It's off topic to the thread, but I do believe there are some key doctrinal points that would take someone outside of salvation, so it's important to understand them.

You are talking about James, Hebrews 4 and 6, and some late verses in Matthew 24-25.

All of those verses are used by heretics to try to deceive real born again Believers.

As i teach all over the world....."All heretics LIVE in Matthew, James, and Hebrews".

 

[Behold]

Or the Acts of the Holy Spirit could be another variation.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Signs of an APOSTLE... "with SIGNS following"...."tongues are for a SIGN"..."signs are for the JEWS"..

The biggest mess that continues to cause chaos within the Body of Christ started occurring when people started to preach and teach that the Acts of the Apostles, are the acts of all born again Christians.

 

[Dave L]

Thank you for the reference. I don't know about this book, but the title does touch something I saw first hand. That is, carnality. First, I don't agree with it being pagan, but I did see immodest dress and sensed seductive spirits.
When I came to Christ it was in the AOG in Metarie, LA pastored by Marvin Gorman. This was in 1985. Jimmy Swaggert was down the road in Baton Rouge. He had an affair with Marvin's wife, then later was caught picking up a prostitute on Airline Hwy. I left the AOG, but not for that reason. Simply because I had moved. None of that shook my faith because I realized those men did not die for my sins, and the miraculous power of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in me had nothing to do with their failures.

I began my walk stumbling into an AoG church looking for someone to baptize me. And I agree with your assessment.

 

[AlexDTX]

Are you saying that "at conversion we receive the HS"....and there there is a 2nd work, a different occurrence that is "the baptism"?
See, the typical Pentecostal theology is......You get saved, but that is not all the HS's work...There is then the "infilling".....which is a 2nd part.
This is a theology that is only related to the Pentecostal churches.
Some teach it as "a second work of Grace"....etc.

Well, as you said, I was taught the latter part of your statement, but I left AOG because I moved and sought small congregations where I could get to know people better. Semantics can clearly create confusion if no effort is found for common understanding in terms. I have been in both evangelical congregations and pentecostal groups, and when you are with truly born again believers, who don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit it is insulting to them to say they don't have the Spirit. Of course they do. Otherwise there would be no new birth.

I used the terms earlier, but even them it is still misleading to say a "first" experience (new birth) and a "second" experience (baptism of HS). We have many experiences of the Holy Spirit throughout our lives if we are willing to accept the promptings of the Lord for those experiences. But these additional experiences always remain our choice. We can disregard the Lord if we so choose.

In a poor neighborhood I stayed in north of New Orleans (Covington) I went door to door talking to people about the Lord. Later, one black family came to my door and asked me to preside over their son's funeral since I was the only Christian they knew. The son was murdered in a drug deal. I agreed. While standing in front of the casket by myself later on, the Lord spoke to me and told me to command the boy back to life. I was stunned at the order, but refused to do so, due to imagining a zombie sitting up. I regret not obeying the Lord. That poor boy could have been saved and used for revival in that neighborhood. The point is, I did not choose to have another experience of the Lord to my shame.

 

[AlexDTX]

Pentecost is a Jewish situation. so, in Acts 2, you had "Jews" there......But not all of them spoke the same language/dialect..
God sent Peter to preach to them all, and Peter spoke only his tongue. So, God had to give him the "gift of foreign language" so that all the Jews there could Hear in THEIR Language.

I'm sorry you already have your mind made up on the point and disregarded what I said. OK. That is your perogative.

 

[Behold]

I see this is 6 pages... I have never come across this. Well... loosing your salvation does not come up allot.. hardly ever. I think saying "ALL".. is really stretching it no?

"i hate OSAS" or "Cheap Grace"...or "license to sin"....< all this is to teach "you can lose your salvation".
Seen any Threads lately? Any posts?
Well, give it another few minutes.

 

[AlexDTX]

Because to teach that you can lose your salvation rejects the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, and denies the Grace of God.
Jude 1 says that these people are to be exposed and resisted.
Paul says that these people are Titus 3:11, and need to be rejected.
All this kinda matters.... AlexDTX
So, if you are doing that, you are Galatians 1:8.

See, to deny in PUBLIC that the same blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved", is to blaspheme against "Grace through faith"... "justification by faith"....and "the GIFT of Righteousness".
So, its not just....."does it matter if they teach you can lose it".
Believe me, it really matters.

It certainly matters for the quality of walk people have with Christ, but it does not matter regarding their salvation. If a person believes they can lose their salvation, then they set themselves up for a life of fear that they may miss God and go to Hell. But won't go to Hell because our security is in Him, not ourselves.

 

[Behold]

Eternal Security, aka OSAS, is a pillar doctrine of Calvinism.

.

OSAS, is simply this.....>"Jesus who saved you, Keeps you saved". "the blood atonement that saved you, keeps you saved".. "The Grace of God which saved you, keeps you saved".

That is NOT Calvinism....that is instead THIS VERSE..

Philippians 1:6. "God who began Salvation in all the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT".

So, God had that one covered long before the CC and JCalvin came along to try to dictate Christianity.

 

[Behold]

I do not accept OSAS, but I would not say that I "HATE" the doctrine.

It is very presumptuous to say that "all connected with tongues" "hate, HATE Eternal Security" and it is a point the OP takes as a given that has not been proven or supported anywhere in this thread.

Rather, it seems that Tongues Today & OSnAS are 2 doctrines the OP "hate, HATEs" and wants to link together, to force together - begging the issue that they are linked when they in fact are not.

If you teach against the truth, you hate it.
Also, i never teach that the Supernatural is not true.....as it most certainly is true.

However, just as spiritual FRUIT can be FAKED.....so can the Gifts be FAKED.
Ive met and dealt whith a lot of both types, including Pastors.

 

[Behold]

Well, as you said, I was taught the latter part of your statement, but I left AOG because

Well first, ... you left the AOG, and the AOG teach that you can lose your salvation.. So, you are the exception, because you left and you have an understanding of "justification by faith" that is not shared or taught by the AOG denomination.
And also, im not trying to pin you down, but it would be excellent if you could just say that there are 2 situations involved regarding, being converted by the HS< and then a 2nd , being "infilled with the baptism".
Can you just say yes or no, vs writing around this answer, instead of just saying yes or no?

 

[Behold]

I'm sorry you already have your mind made up on the point and disregarded what I said. OK. That is your perogative.

Did peter speak in a foreign language so that all could hear, or did he speak in "groanings that can't be uttered" which is a prayer language that many confuse with the "Gift of Tongues".

 

[Behold]

It certainly matters for the quality of walk people have with Christ, but it does not matter regarding their salvation.

No person who is born again, can go to hell. Sure, we are agreed.
But every person who teaches that a Born again person can go to hell is a heretic.
There is no way around that....as this person has been qualified by Paul as "fallen from grace", and what makes them a heretic, is that they TEACH this false gospel.. Thats the problem., and that is what defines you.. "if you preach any other GOSPEL"....so, to preach "the born again can burn in the lake of fire", is to deny the GRACE of God, which is to TEACH "another gospel" = Heretic. = Galatians 1:8 Titus 3:11

 

[Hazelelponi]

You are talking about James, Hebrews 4 and 6, and some late verses in Matthew 24-25.

All of those verses are used by heretics to try to deceive real born again Believers.

As i teach all over the world....."All heretics LIVE in Matthew, James, and Hebrews".

No... that's not what I'm talking about at all...

It helps if you try and discuss with the person your talking with instead of looking under rocks for heretics.

 

[Hazelelponi]

OSAS, is simply this.....>"Jesus who saved you, Keeps you saved". "the blood atonement that saved you, keeps you saved".. "The Grace of God which saved you, keeps you saved".

That is NOT Calvinism....that is instead THIS VERSE..

Philippians 1:6. "God who began Salvation in all the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT".

So, God had that one covered long before the CC and JCalvin came along to try to dictate Christianity.

I want to point out and then I'm out of your thread here. First what is called a Calvinist is someone who believe in 4 or 5 of the following points.

1.) The total depravity of man
2.) Unconditional election
3.) Limited atonement
4) Irresistible Grace
5.) Perseverance of the saints

There are 4 point "Calvinists" or 5 point Calvinists... but that's all that that gets a person the Calvinist label...

It's scripturally based doctrine that while those simple words don't actually explain the whole of it, its not a dictatorship in the Christian faith by any stretch of the imagination.

Being against it is kind of like being against the Nicene Creed because it was people trying to expound in some small way the nature of God, according to concepts spelled out in scripture.

 

[stormdancer0]

Ready for the list?
These all state in their Statement Of Faith that you can lose your Salvation, and i'll just post a few.

Assemblys of God
Church of the Nazarene
Catholic Church (non Tongues, sure)
Church of Christ
United Pentecostal
many more.
Ive been on Forums since 2004, and ive never talked to a Pentecostal or Charismatic who didnt hate , HATE, the idea of "Eternal Security".
They'll probably show up here, on this Thread.

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

The Church of God, Cleveland TN also believes both of these. I am an ordained minister with that denomination. What exactly would anyone like to know?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

Perhaps they are more Biblical than other Christians

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation".
This is very curious.

I used to speak in tongues (and prayed to translate) - and I don't subscribe to that theology. But I know what you mean, it's more common if the tongue speaker also believes you need to speak in tongues to be saved.

 

[AlexDTX]

Well first, ... you left the AOG, and the AOG teach that you can lose your salvation.. So, you are the exception, because you left and you have an understanding of "justification by faith" that is not shared or taught by the AOG denomination.
And also, im not trying to pin you down, but it would be excellent if you could just say that there are 2 situations involved regarding, being converted by the HS< and then a 2nd , being "infilled with the baptism".
Can you just say yes or no, vs writing around this answer, instead of just saying yes or no?

Actually you are trying to pin me down by giving me an either or response.
Frankly, your OP question has become ingenuous. You want to know "Why do all believers who are connected with "tongues" believe that you can "lose your salvation"? Several Pentecostals, myself included, have already stated that we speak in tongues, yet do not believe one can lose their salvation. So you call us exceptions. It seems that what you really want to do is paint a broad brush against Pentecostals using tongues and OSAS as your platform. I have no sense that you are actually looking for understanding at all. Instead you want to assert that you are right and they are wrong. Every answer you have given that I have read maintains this I know better than you because my understanding of Scriptures is right while yours is not.

So, Behold, I bow out of this discussion. Thank you for your time.