Why do all believers connected with "tongues".....

[AlexDTX]

Didn't you just teach 2 separate events?

I did, but only one acquisition of the Holy Spirit. The first is receiving the Spirit, the second is releasing the Spirit. Releasing the Spirit does not mean He goes away. It means the presence of the Spirit around you is manifested to others nearby.

Once in New Orleans I shared the baptism of the Holy Spirit with a person who was saved, but had not the second experience. When she began to speak in tongues I was blasted in the face by the rivers of living water that gushed forth from her belly. The sensation was as real to me as a hose of water sprayed in my face would be.

 

[TLSITD]

There is also no Catholic Church or Assembly of God Church found in the New Testament.
So, im not sure what you point is, TLSITD, as im not trying to connect tongues with OSAS, im just pointing out that these Groups, over 100 million people, who make up their body, hate the teaching of Eternal Security.

I didn't say anything about Catholicism or Pentecostalism or denominations in general being scriptural, and that's irrelevant to the question presented in the OP. I simply stated that there's no Scriptural relationship between that particular spiritual gift and the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, regardless of what a particular denomination may teach about it. I'm not a Pentecostal so I can't tell you whether they make a connection between the things doctrinally or whether it's simply a coincidence.

 

[Behold]

But for full transparency, when I came to Christ in the AOG, it was a common belief that you could lose your salvation because the exhortations for our personal responsibilities towards God. Thirty five years later, no, I don't believe you can lose your salvation because I have come to know that the depth and height of God's love and grace are beyond my ken.

Well brother , i appreciate your transparency. As it is a fact that the AOG statement of Faith, a part of it, is that you can lose your salvation. So, that you were not taught to believe this, is quite remarkable and God bless you for not teaching that Lie.

 

[AlexDTX]

Well brother , i appreciate your transparency. As it is a fact that the AOG statement of Faith, a part of it, is that you can lose your salvation. So, that you were not taught to believe this, is quite remarkable and God bless you for not teaching that Lie.

Since we are in conversation, I did not think I was teaching anything, only sharing my testimony.

 

[Behold]

I can understand, I left the Pentecostal Church because they do not believe in eternal security. Pentecostals preach a very destructive message even know they are well meaning their damaging those sitting in their congregations.

That is exactly what they teach, and its a theology of death, and you are fortunate that you got away from it.

 

[Behold]

I didn't say anything about Catholicism or Pentecostalism or denominations in general being scriptural, and that's irrelevant to the question presented in the OP. I simply stated that there's no Scriptural relationship between that particular spiritual gift and the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, regardless of what a particular denomination may teach about it. I'm not a Pentecostal so I can't tell you whether they make a connection between the things doctrinally or whether it's simply a coincidence.

Any person or denomination that teaches that you can lose your salvation, has "fallen from Grace"... That is the reason.
A person believes that the Same BLOOD of Jesus that saved them, Keeps them saved"....or they DENY THIS, and in that case, Jesus is ripped of the Nails, and a SELF SAVOR is up on the Cross.
Thats how it works.

 

[AlexDTX]

Ive been on Forums since 2004, and ive never talked to a Pentecostal or Charismatic who didnt hate , HATE, the idea of "Eternal Security".

I find that to be a strong word. What I "hate" is the passivity of believers who think that because they are saved, they have no need to do anything. I specifically mean evangelize. Jesus said the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few. He wasn't kidding. There are many who view their eternal salvation as the end of the line. Now all one has to do is pray, read the Bible and worship with others. Of course we do those things, but if you love Jesus you will care about what He cares about, and that is saving the lost. I have to think that many Christians really don't love Jesus beyond their own little worlds.

 

[Behold]

Since we are in conversation, I did not think I was teaching anything, only sharing my testimony.

Well, you spoke.........about the HS, as if its a 2 part indwelling.....that you get him, and then you have a 2nd work, that is the "river"..
So, are you saying that when a person is saved, that they get all the work of the HS, in them, at that time, or are you saying that there is conversion...but then there is more to happen as a result of some other empowering that is causes by the HS as a secondary event?
Im not quite sure what you are explaining..... what?

 

[AlexDTX]

There's a consideration many may not think of, but what it it's just to oppose Satan? It's like saying see, I can bring people to myself even here, and you can't do anything against me...

Just a thought anyway. I mean, there are some churches so full of false teachings that you wonder how anyone can walk out truly saved... but some still do even in the oddest of places.. So that may be the answer.

I know my husband doesn't generally like saying boo against any church so as not to hurt those who are God's there... and you wonder why God doesn't pull people out, and sometimes it's so bad He does but other times He just leaves them... I rather think it's a statement to God's power though, and not a statement about a churches teachings.

I assume you are using hyperbole in your comments, but God does not look upon people according to their doctrines. He looks upon their hearts. Two people with hearts after God, but different doctrines they embraced, are fine with God. Do you think God is bothered by heresy? I think he is much bigger than that, and is more than able to teach his children those doctrines that really matter. Frankly, most doctrines taught in church don't really matter to God.

 

[Behold]

I find that to be a strong word. What I "hate" is the passivity of believers who think that because they are saved, they have no need to do anything. I specifically mean evangelize. Jesus said the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few. He wasn't kidding. There are many who view their eternal salvation as the end of the line. Now all one has to do is pray, read the Bible and worship with others. Of course we do those things, but if you love Jesus you will care about what He cares about, and that is saving the lost. I have to think that many Christians really don't love Jesus beyond their own little worlds.

Brother, i hear what you are saying........its a common line out there.... its sort of related to "cheap grace", and that other bumper sticker...>"license to sin"....and truthfully, all that stuff is someone's imagination. No one teaches that once you are saved you can then go and sin and have a party, yet that innuendo is thick in the Body of Christ.
People that hate Eternal Security teach that to deceive people out of Eternal Security.

And i agree that most Christians are dead wood. They are asleep in the Light.
But that is always the case. Its always the 3% that do the work and the 97% that are born again dont make a difference at all.
I'l bet you an ice cream cone and a bag of cashews, that if we could be a fly on the wall in the lives of all the people who stay on forums all the time, that it would be less then 1%, that have led one person to Christ, and it would be even a lower percentage that any have discipled someone regarding the NT and got them grounded in Pauline Theology and Hebrews 13:9.

And im not finger Pointing, but i do know what i know.
Most believers on Forums talk a good game, and speak perfect Christianese, but are really do-nothings.
Many are called, but few do much after that.....

 

[Hazelelponi]

That is exactly what they teach, and its a theology of death, and you are fortunate that you got away from it.

While I do believe Christ alone saves us I also believe that our love of Christ in that salvation/for that salvation has us desiring to please Him, and causes us to change in many ways.

There's always a balance that must be expressed, the Bible teaches two sides of the coin, and it's to us to find that balance and where it lies in our own lives.

No one is perfect, but we are all moving forward (even when it feels more like step forward two steps back) in sanctification...

We hold on to complete faith and trust in Christ, but we don't dismiss what Grace brings in our lives either through our newfound love of the Savior.

Sometimes people have a more difficult time finding a way to communicate that balance, others stress one part of the coin or another... but the belief that salvation causes change in a person's life and not really understanding or communicating the whole of it doesn't necessarily place someone outside of salvation.

 

[AlexDTX]

Well, you spoke.........about the HS, as if its a 2 part indwelling.....that you get him, and then you have a 2nd work, that is the "river"..
So, are you saying that when a person is saved, that they get all the work of the HS, in them, at that time, or are you saying that there is conversion...but then there is more to happen as a result of some other empowering that is causes by the HS as a secondary event?
Im not quite sure what you are explaining..... what?

Ok, those are good questions.

Do you prophesy? Have you had a word of knowledge or wisdom? Have you prayed for healing and it occurred immediately? If not, does that mean you don't have the Holy Spirit?

Of course not. You received the Holy Spirit with the new birth. Those gifts of the Spirit I mentioned above are operations of the Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the first operation of the Spirit that enables the other gifts to function. It is called a second experience of the Holy Spirit because when you are born again, you have the first experience.

Can you have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues? Absolutely. Speaking in tongues is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is another operation of the Holy Spirit.

Here is the catch. If you have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, none of the gifts happen automatically. God gives us the choice. A dear friend of mine is clearly baptized in the HS, but does not speak in tongues because he does not want to. No movement of the HS will happen without your desiring Him to do so.

This is the point of 1 Cor 12 to 14. Paul argues for people to desire prophecy more than tongues because it edifies the church. Chapter 13 on love is not non sequitur. He is still talking about the gifts you desire and is saying your motivation for any gift is because of love for others.

 

[AlexDTX]

Brother, i hear what you are saying........its a common line out there.... its sort of related to "cheap grace", and that other bumper sticker...>"license to sin"....and truthfully, all that stuff is someone's imagination. No one teaches that once you are saved you can then go and sin and have a party, yet that innuendo is thick in the Body of Christ.
People that hate Eternal Security teach that to deceive people out of Eternal Security.

And i agree that most Christians are dead wood. They are asleep in the Light.
But that is always the case. Its always the 3% that do the work and the 97% that are born again dont make a difference at all.
I'l bet you an ice cream cone and a bag of cashews, that if we could be a fly on the wall in the lives of all the people who stay on forums all the time, that it would be less then 1%, that have led one person to Christ, and it would be even a lower percentage that any have discipled someone regarding the NT and got them grounded in Pauline Theology and Hebrews 13:9.

And im not finger Pointing, but i do know what i know.
Most believers on Forums talk a good game, and speak perfect Christianese, but are really do-nothings.
Many are called, but few do much after that.....

Very well said. I agree with you. I think you might want to word this a little different.

"People that hate Eternal Security teach that to deceive people out of Eternal Security."​

If you could deceive someone out of eternal security, is it eternal security? By definition it is impossible to remove eternal security, isn't it?

I honestly don't think there are Christians who hate eternal security. My observation about myself and others is that we get heated up in arguments trying to defend and prove our point of view. I don't see that as hate, more like pride in trying to be right.

 

[AlexDTX]

Why people are so sure speaking of tongues is for false christians or something? i just don't get it, God does a lot of stuff even today, speaking in tongues is not even or should not be the best he does.

I am reading a book called, "The Physics of Heaven", which is an anthology of several writers. One author made this point. If there is a counterfeit, then there has to be a real. Otherwise it can't be a counterfeit by definition. So even of demons can cause people to speak in tongues, they can only copy what God does, which means there are people speaking in tongues as moved by the Holy Spirit.

And in this discussion of eternal security, it becomes a contradiction in terms to say a Christian (who has eternal security, because all who are born again have it regardless of whether they believe it or not) to be possessed by a demon to speak in tongues. The same pov is that no Christian can be possessed, only oppressed.

 

[Behold]

While I do believe Christ alone saves us I also believe that our love of Christ in that salvation/for that salvation has us desiring to please Him, and causes us to change in many ways.

There's always a balance that must be expressed, the Bible teaches two sides of the coin, and it's to us to find that balance and where it lies in our own lives.

No one is perfect, but we are all moving forward (even when it feels more like step forward two steps back) in sanctification...

We hold on to complete faith and trust in Christ, but we don't dismiss what Grace brings in our lives either through our newfound love of the Savior.

Sometimes people have a more difficult time finding a way to communicate that balance, others stress one part of the coin or another... but the belief that salvation causes change in a person's life and not really understanding or communicating the whole of it doesn't necessarily place someone outside of salvation.

Im a sort of "last of our kind".....Im not a "modern" Church Evangelist....so, i teach "sanctification" differently then most who teach it completely wrong as a.... "Process of sinning, falling, confessing, repenting", till you die.
The NT does not teach that, Paul does not teach that, but most Christians in the last 50 yrs have been taught that there is no such thing as Perfected Christian Discipleship. And that is a lie.
Paul said...>"if you walk in the Spirit, you WILL NOT fulfill the Lusts of the Flesh"
" WILL NOT"....is not, "on occasion".
Paraphrase...>If you know how to walk in the Spirit, under the dominion of Grace, in the Mind of Christ, then you will not sin.

So, i teach that, and im one of the last who does. Adrian Rogers is gone. Lloyd Olgalvie is gone. Most are gone now.

A born again Christian's life is to be a continuous VICTORY over sin, not a flailing, failing, sinning, confessing, repenting, revolving door of Christian Failure. And most think that is "salvation"< but i assure you that this is the devil's lie.

Paul said this also...."Thanks be to GOD, who gives us the VICTORY THRU = Christ.

So, its rare that you find a teacher who can teach you how to stop sinning, because there are not many of us left. Most churches are "fallen from Grace" and most Teachers and Pastors are the same.


ok then, i'll be back at another time...


thanks everyone.


<B><

 

[Hazelelponi]

I assume you are using hyperbole in your comments, but God does not look upon people according to their doctrines. He looks upon their hearts. Two people with hearts after God, but different doctrines they embraced, are fine with God. Do you think God is bothered by heresy? I think he is much bigger than that, and is more than able to teach his children those doctrines that really matter. Frankly, most doctrines taught in church don't really matter to God.

Doctrine matters.

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us---eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)

While someone can know right doctrine and not be saved, I'm not sure you can not know right doctrine and still be saved, or to what degree it can be off.

While Jesus saves, man-made constructs of Jesus or God do not. There are people within Christiandom who don't worship the same God I do, so far are we apart on our ideas of salvation and Christ and God.

We do have to understand that not everyone has the same level or place of understanding, and understanding and knowledge will grow in Christ... so calling people condemned for not having a right understanding is wrong, but doctrine can mean the difference between being saved and not... for real. So it's actually important.

 

[AlexDTX]

Doctrine matters.

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us---eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)

While someone can know right doctrine and not be saved, I'm not sure you can not know right doctrine and still be saved.

While Jesus saves, man-made constructs of Jesus or God cannot. There are people within Christiandom who don't worship the same God I do, so far are we apart on our ideas of salvation and Christ and God.

You do have to understand that not everyone has the same level or place of understanding, and understanding and knowledge will grow in Christ... so calling people condemned for not having a right understanding is wrong, but doctrine can mean the difference between being saved and not... for real. So it's actually important.

Tell me what is "right doctrine"?

 

[Behold]

Very well said. I agree with you. I think you might want to word this a little different.

"People that hate Eternal Security teach that to deceive people out of Eternal Security."​

If you could deceive someone out of eternal security, is it eternal security? By definition it is impossible to remove eternal security, isn't it?

I honestly don't think there are Christians who hate eternal security. My observation about myself and others is that we get heated up in arguments trying to defend and prove our point of view. I don't see that as hate, more like pride in trying to be right.

Can Eternal security be Eternal Security, unless its Eternal?
Yet, people believe they can lose their salvation......so, that is to teach and believe that "Eternal' does not mean "eternal".....and many on this very forum will fight you with spit flying and eyes blazing demanding that "you can lose your salvation". One has shown up here in the last 30 mins demanding that you understand that you can lose your salvation...

This type believes and teaches that Eternal Life...is not Eternal. That Eternal Security is not Eternal, because it does not exist.
This is world wide.. Its a person, a Denomination. who are "fallen from Grace"....(if they are born again...as not all of them are..of course.)

 

[TLSITD]

Any person or denomination that teaches that you can lose your salvation, has "fallen from Grace"... That is the reason.
A person believes that the Same BLOOD of Jesus that saved them, Keeps them saved"....or they DENY THIS, and in that case, Jesus is ripped of the Nails, and a SELF SAVOR is up on the Cross.
Thats how it works.

If that doctrinal issue was what you wanted to debate, maybe you should have just started a thread for that in the discussion and debate forum and left the tongues bit out of your question: "Why do some Christians believe that Christians can forfeit their salvation?" Then Christians of all kinds could answer you, Pentecostals included.

 

[AlexDTX]

And then there is the confusion between a "personal prayer language, and the actual Spiritual Gift of "tongues" which is noted in Acts 2....Peter speaking and "each heard in their OWN LANGUAGE"

Let's think about it. As you stated, "each heard in their own language". Does this mean each apostle and disciple spoke different languages so that each listener could hear the praises of God in their own language?

I have been in crowded rooms with many people talking, and, honestly, it is hard to understand any of them because there were so many. Of course in the midst of them I could hear those close to me, but not the others. So does this mean that each who heard in their own languages just so happened to be next to the one who spoke in their tongue?

Of course, with God all things are possible, but would it not make more sense that the miracle was not the tongues being in their language, but rather each person heard them all speaking in their own language. Their hearing was the miracle. The tongues spoken by the apostles were what Paul said in 1 Cor 14, their spirits praying without their minds understanding.