Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

jimmyjimmy · Jan 17, 2020

Phil W said:
Wow, if all you need Jesus for is constant atonements you should read Heb 6:4-6.
I live and walk in Christ.
I use His name in every prayer.
He is my guide and Comfort.
He is my example and strength.

Some are healed by the Physician.
Thanks be to God!
It is the quacks who can't heal.

So, Jesus is your personal trainer.

Phil W · Jan 17, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
So, Jesus is your personal trainer.

That is one way of looking at it.
And He is the best Trainer.
It is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)

BobRyan · Jan 17, 2020

Josheb said:
Matthew 23 verse says nothing about free will.

Until you read it.

Christ did not say "How I wanted to ... but I could not convince myself to go through with"
Rather Christ presents it as a clash between two wills.
Christ did not say "How I wanted to.. but then later got distracted and forgot about the whole thing".

There is no sense in which Matthew 23 is about only the sovereign will of God - it includes the will of the people of Israel contrary to what Christ's will is stated to be.

Christ who "is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
said "How I wanted to save your children... but YOU would not" Matthew 23 the two actors are clearly presented.

"what more could I have done than than what I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

Since it appears you are not reading Matthew 23 -- here it is.

34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

BobRyan · Jan 17, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
2. The idea that God is not responsible for the thoughts and actions of the wicked? The Bible already claims it as God laments "What more could I have done that I have not already done?" Isaiah 5:4

Josheb said:
God could have done much more.

That is the predictable response we expect in Calvinism. Because in Calvinism God does not "do all he can then have the lost person turn away anyway". In Calvinism there is no such thing as God asking "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?"

Isaiah 5

He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Calvinism does not even allow for such a thing to exist at all! It goes against every distinctive in the model of Calvinism!!

Josheb said:
God could have done much more.

Much more "cursing" of that which God "expected" to turn out good and obedient?

5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 “I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it.”

jimmyjimmy · Jan 18, 2020

Phil W said:
That is one way of looking at it.
And He is the best Trainer.
It is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)

I'm having difficulty understanding why Jesus had to die, in your system.

BobRyan · Jan 18, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
I'm having difficulty understanding why Jesus had to die, in your system.

Arminians will often state that He lived as an example 1 John 2:4-6 and died as atoning sacrifice "for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

Phil W · Jan 18, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
I'm having difficulty understanding why Jesus had to die, in your system.

I hadn't regarded it as "MY" system before now....
As it is all biblical, I can't lay claim to any of it.
Jesus "had to die" in order for His blood to be available for my sanctification.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb 10:10,14)

I was immersed into that blood at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, (Acts 2:38), which is also the means of killing the old "me" and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

Without Jesus, there is no baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, we couldn't be "raised with Him to walk in newness of life".

jimmyjimmy · Jan 21, 2020

Phil W said:
I hadn't regarded it as "MY" system before now....
As it is all biblical, I can't lay claim to any of it.
Jesus "had to die" in order for His blood to be available for my sanctification.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb 10:10,14)

I was immersed into that blood at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, (Acts 2:38), which is also the means of killing the old "me" and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

Without Jesus, there is no baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, we couldn't be "raised with Him to walk in newness of life".

All of that matters not if you ignore His propitiating sacrifice and seek to save yourself, does it? The verse you've quoted gives us the answer:

". . .we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Phil W · Jan 21, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
All of that matters not if you ignore His propitiating sacrifice and seek to save yourself, does it? The verse you've quoted gives us the answer:

". . .we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

But I don't ignore "that", so His gracefully provided gifts of repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins do matter.
Without faith, those are just points of contention instead of gifts from God.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 21, 2020

Phil W said:
But I don't ignore "that", so His gracefully provided gifts of repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins do matter.
Without faith, those are just points of contention instead of gifts from God.

"Past sins"???

HAVE YOU SINNED TODAY?

Phil W · Jan 21, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
"Past sins"???

Yes, as per Rom 3:25..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

HAVE YOU SINNED TODAY?

No, thanks be to a graceful God.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 22, 2020

Phil W said:
Yes, as per Rom 3:25..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

No, thanks be to a graceful God.

You are with sin?

You have ‘LOVED THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ AND, YOU HAVE LOVED, "YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’, for the past 24 hours?

Phil W · Jan 22, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
You are with sin?

I don't know what you mean by "with sin".
I don't commit sin anymore, not since I permanently repented of sin.

You have ‘LOVED THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ AND, YOU HAVE LOVED, "YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’, for the past 24 hours?

Yes, to the glory of God.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 22, 2020

Phil W said:
I don't know what you mean by "with sin".
I don't commit sin anymore, not since I permanently repented of sin.

Yes, to the glory of God.

I asked:

You have ‘LOVED THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ AND, YOU HAVE LOVED, "YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’, for the past 24 hours?

What is your answer?

Phil W · Jan 22, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
I asked:

You have ‘LOVED THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ AND, YOU HAVE LOVED, "YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’, for the past 24 hours?

What is your answer?

Perhaps you should start a question with... "Have" you loved....?
But the answer is Yes, I have.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 22, 2020

Phil W said:
Perhaps you should start a question with... "Have" you loved....?
But the answer is Yes, I have.

Lord have mercy.

Phil W · Jan 22, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
Lord have mercy.

So why do you ask?

bbbbbbb · Jan 23, 2020

Phil W said:
Perhaps you should start a question with... "Have" you loved....?
But the answer is Yes, I have.

Wow! Other than Jesus Christ, you are probably the only person in history that has done so. May I ask how you accomplished it?

Phil W · Jan 24, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Wow! Other than Jesus Christ, you are probably the only person in history that has done so. May I ask how you accomplished it?

In as few words as possible...here goes.
I turned from all sin, permanently. Repentance.
I was washed of my old sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
I received the gift of the Holy Ghost, as promised by Peter in Acts 2:38.
Having crucified the flesh, (Rom 6:3-7), with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), it is within my power, by the grace of God, to keep my eyes focused on the prize, with remembrance of all the suffering and death Jesus endured so we too can partake in His victory over sin.
I pray and read every day. I study so as to insure I continue to grow in grace and knowledge daily.
I reach out to those in need, aware of so many that aren't as well off as I.
By giving, I receive.

BTW, I am not the first to believe all that is written, or to love God above all else, or to love my neighbor as myself.

BobRyan · Jan 24, 2020

jimmyjimmy said:
I asked:

You have ‘LOVED THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ AND, YOU HAVE LOVED, "YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’, for the past 24 hours?

What is your answer?

Quoting Deut 6:4 again?

Well done!

You must be doing it because you know that the "Law of God is written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 I assume

Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

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