• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed

There it is, then. I will try to explain again. Saving faith is the gift of God, the Holy Spirit within, regeneration. The question the Arminian worries about, "am I actually saved", is no longer the concern plaguing the Calvinist. We move on, loving the fact that God's will indeed is being done. This life is not for this life, nor even really, for us, but for God's sake. We are not the center of the matter.

I KNOW that God will accomplish his will for his creation. This satisfies me beyond confidence in my willpower. If I turn out to have fooled myself and am not one that God chose in his mercy, I know I won't feel like I do now, yet I can't see myself not being overjoyed with seeing him as he is, and knowing his satisfaction at having accomplished what he set out to do.

I don't worry whether I'm saved anymore. I worry about my sin, and about those who mock Christ.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,356
11,906
Georgia
✟1,093,531.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I completely agree. The same problem works in reverse: having a certain bias when you come to the text will make you oversize whatever you read.

Certainly that is possible - one could take John 11 "The one whom you love is sick" to be "well Lazarus is a man and you love him so then you must love all mankind"... for the Arminian POV using bias to oversize a statement... to upsize it beyond the text.

But that is not what we see here -- what we see in the OP is texts so clearly Arminian that you will find cases even on this thread -- where the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection by some folks who post here.

And it is pretty easy to see why - its the mere quote of the text that poses such a problem for the preference needed in Calvinism.

 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,356
11,906
Georgia
✟1,093,531.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
Arminianism
1. The Arminian can know he is saved today - with genuine faith today - but cannot know that ten years from today he will continue to persevere firm to the end.

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist model does not even allow knowing that much.

1. In 3 and 5 point Calvinism one cannot possibly know that their faith is real until they see that 10 years from today - they did not "fail to persevere firm to the end".

There it is, then. I will try to explain again. Saving faith is the gift of God, the Holy Spirit within, regeneration.

True - but as even Calvin admits - there are those who genuinely believe they have that -- and they do not.

The question the Arminian worries about, "am I actually saved", is no longer the concern plaguing the Calvinist.

Nothing about the Arminian POV requires not having the born again experience today... just because you could lose it ten years from today. Only calvinism requires it.

Do you have any teaching in the Arminian framework that requires that we not know we are born again - saved saints as of today??? If so - why isn't someone quoting that?

The assurance of salvation that you see in Roman 8:16 is a real living experience in the here-and-now for Arminians. It is not something that you doubt for today because you fear that 10 years from today you might not persevere firm to the end.

But in 3 and 5 point Calvinism that is precisely the factor that would "undo assurance" today because they retro-delete assurance all the way back to today when it is observed that 10 years from today you failed to persevere.

Whereas in the Arminian model even IF you fail to persevere ten years from today - it does not mean that you are not actually saved, born again, in Christ today.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Unless, of course, you believe you're not of the Elect. I doubt I can state my objections more clearly than I have.
How in the world would you know you are not of the Elect? Until I came to see what I do now about the Gospel, and the will of God, I had that fear. But now that I KNOW he will accomplish whatever he set out to do --I see this is NOT about ME. Somebody has been teaching these people you say you run into wrong. This is about Christ --not about closing the sale.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Nothing about the Arminian POV requires not having the born again experience today... just because you could lose it ten years from today. Only calvinism requires it.
Wow. You are thinking too hard. If I am not elect, God's will is done. If I am elect, God's will is done. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME.

But to deal with your statement --I cannot know that I am not elect, until I die. Whether or not I am regenerated, (yes, I can be fooling myself) is not only my business to live up to, (but even that I cannot do apart from Christ), but it is God's doing it in me. I don't have to look back to a moment of conversion and wonder if it was real. But when I believed with an Arminian pov, I worried about it all the time --I knew very well that I could be fooling myself, and if my salvation hinged on MY choice, I had good reason to worry. But God had hold of me the whole time --this does not depend on me. I am unable to uphold it.
 
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Ilikecats

Active Member
Dec 27, 2019
185
70
29
Alberta
✟64,744.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

I also had the fear of losing my salvation until I came into the saving knowledge. No matter how hard I tried I would fall short. Then I came across a man teaching Reformed Theology and after reading the entire Bible as well with the help of God I have become closely aligned with the doctrines of grace. For me there was no way that I could keep myself saved with my own doing and I recognized that.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
1. In 3 and 5 point Calvinism one cannot possibly know that their faith is real until they see that 10 years from today - they did not "fail to persevere firm to the end".
You have a strange idea of Calvinism. If 10 years down the road I have abandoned Christ, why should I think I was ever regenerated? If 10 years down the road I have persevered, then I have persevered only so far. But if I am chosen by God for his purposes, I have the satisfaction of seeing him work, using me through both my obedience and my bullheaded self-reliance and even disobedience. My perseverance is not because of my decision and will power and integrity or love. It is because of God.

And please don't take this to mean that I need not will to do. My will is completely involved in this --consumingly so, but it is still HE who does this. I am not myself, so to speak, not what I was made for, incomplete, apart from him. So how am I to trust MY decisions?
 
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I didn't fear losing my salvation. I was brought up that that was impossible. What I feared was that I had fooled myself, since my obedience was my measure by which to know confidence. --No, even more, innately, I knew I could fool myself, and had no reason to trust my ability to make a valid decision of such weight.

Since then I see my whole focus was about myself. That is not why God made me. I am made for HIM. (In fact, even the forever lost are made for his use, (as are we all --and THAT is more satisfying and happy than I can describe.))
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
btw, I like cats too --at someone else's house.
 
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
True - but as even Calvin admits - there are those who genuinely believe they have that -- and they do not.
Calvin doesn't "admit" that. He preaches it! But Arminianism provides no relief from that problem.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
With Calvinism you see your faith as proof God saved you. You could not believe otherwise. With Arminianism you see the gospel as a job offer. And believe God will owe you salvation when you accept the offer and go to work. = two different gospels.
Amen, Brother! Salvation is of the Lord! Not of my decision.

God owes me nothing. And has given me himself, undeserving as I am --not because I accepted his kind offer.
 
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed

My own father, I found out after I was married, was Reformed (Calvinistic) in his thinking, but never stated it as such, never contentious about it, but constant in his declarations of the absolute sovereignty of God, and of God accomplishing all he set out to do. My mother was very Arminian in her thinking, though admitting to all my dad would say. She never contradicted him, he never contradicted her. But one thing he did say to me, though I never realized it contradicted the "decision" mentality of my mother's kin until much later, "Some people just come to know the Lord --it doesn't necessarily have to relate to a particular point in time." He may as well have said, "God is the one who saves." He also was careful in our nightly family devotions to have us memorize passages that show God at work, and our duty and joy in obedience.

I also remember noticing that even the Wesleyan-thinking believers I loved and trusted sounded remarkably different in prayer, than they did in their doctrine. To this day, I cannot understand why people say that Calvinists believe that unless you subscribe to the doctrines of Grace you cannot be saved. NONE of us have the intelligence and knowledge to understand God that well.
 
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,473
972
63
Taiwan
Visit site
✟105,547.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Biblical Case for the Free Will of man is merely based on inference. The Sovereignty of God is directly revealed by God in the Bible.

Can you admit these facts?
 
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,366
69
Pennsylvania
✟947,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I once embarked on a thesis paper to defend Reformed theology --and I studied every passage (you quote verses here, pretty much ignoring context) I could find that non-Reformed believers used to support Free Will (and several I wondered about that I had found on my own. Every one of them, without exception, needed no word-smithing, but yes, exegesis, to show they are talking about God's work, and ours ONLY AS A RESULT --in fact, a necessary result-- and most of them turned out to be very strong support for Reformed thinking.

My father was a Greek scholar, and one verse he told me about has always stood our for me --"If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sin..." (1 John 1:9). The Greek tense implies God's action already accomplished, yet (as my father said) necessarily contingent on our confession. He did not explain that "contingent" did not mean that our confession caused the result of our having been forgiven beforehand, but I came to see later that "contingent" does not necessarily logically indicate cause, but "accompaniment" (not time-dependent but logically result dependent). That is, what is necessarily implied there is that if there is no confession, there is no forgiveness. Simply that.

As I grow older, I have become more convinced that it is all the work of God --not us-- that accomplishes the whole business. And we, who are made to be complete (or "real" as I like to put it) only because of God in us, are necessarily willing, and work hard, partakers in his suffering. We reap the benefit of obedience; we do not cause it.

It is God who makes our "free will" valid. It is nothing innate in ourselves.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The legalistic job offer gospel puts God in debt to save the worker.
 
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,473
972
63
Taiwan
Visit site
✟105,547.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My personal experience tells me we have free will.

But, suppose our free will is merely a (self) deception. Suppose that God is totally controlling every our every thought and decision.

Can we agree that God has a right to do this?
Can we say that God is still good and just?

If not, then we believe that God is only good and just when he follows our will. We will then be the judge of God.
 
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God controls our choices through the reasons we base them on. God remains sovereign and we freely choose what we want.
 
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,473
972
63
Taiwan
Visit site
✟105,547.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God controls our choices through the reasons we base them on. God remains sovereign and we freely choose what we want.
"God remains sovereign and we freely choose what we want." I assume this is true and am happy to let God work out the details.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"God remains sovereign and we freely choose what we want." I assume this is true and am happy to let God work out the details.
We freely choose based on the reasons God uses to sculpt our choices.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,356
11,906
Georgia
✟1,093,531.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

And of course in John 1:11 we have the "action" on the part of both parties.
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Just as in Matthew 23
"O Jerusalem - how I wanted to spare your children.. BUT YOU would not"

God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

predictably the mere quote of the texts above will be sufficient cause to give rise to the objection if one does not approve of the statements they make.

I once embarked on a thesis paper to defend Reformed theology --and I studied every passage (you quote verses here, pretty much ignoring context)

As predicted. With nothing but the quote of the text above - you post the accusation that it is me 'ignoring context'.

Merely refusing to engage in the creative rendering-gymnastics required in Calvinism to wrench the text into something less objectionable to the direction that Calvinism would prefer - is not the same thing as "ignoring context". I think that when looking at this objectively we can all see .. at least that one point.

Every one of them, without exception, needed no word-smithing,

Were that remotely the case - we would all see not only "ME" quoting the texts "as-is" no word-smithing gymnastic needed... but so also would Calvinists be repeatedly quoting the above also claiming those texts perfectly state the case for Calvinism.

Instead it is "only me" doing that

How is that not incredibly obvious?
 
Upvote 0